The Talmud

[sheep wrecked]

The Talmud is an extensive topic. I found an article on the net and was hoping to get some discussion going. Do you think the author is right?

Used with permission from the author:

Quote:Many in Hebrew Roots think that it is fine to promote teachers who are constantly associating Jesus with the talmud and the sages or interpreting scripture using talmud, but by these sages own admission with their blasphemy of Christ, they are proven to be anti christ and the Bible states this explicitly. Plain and simple, Christ and belial have NO fellowship, as it is written.

Here is are some quotes from Maimonides who is one of the most revered sages of rabbinic Judaism who is quoted by some teachers promoted in Hebrew Roots:

Mishneh Torah

“Even Jesus the Nazarene who imagined that he would be Messiah and was killed by the court, was already prophesied by Daniel. So that it was said, “And the members of the outlaws of your nation would be carried to make a (prophetic) vision stand. And they stumbled” (Daniel 11.14). Because, is there a greater stumbling-block than this one? So that all of the prophets spoke that the Messiah redeems Israel, and saves them, and gathers their banished ones, and strengthens their commandments. And this one caused (nations) to destroy Israel by sword, and to scatter their remnant, and to humiliate them, and to exchange the Torah, and to make the majority of the world err to serve a divinity besides God. However, the thoughts of the Creator of the world – there is no force in a human to attain them because our ways are not God's ways, and our thoughts not God's thoughts. And all these things of Jesus the Nazarene, and of (Muhammad) the Ishmaelite who stood after him – there is no (purpose) but to straighten out the way for the King Messiah, and to restore all the world to serve God together. So that it is said, “Because then I will turn toward the nations (giving them) a clear lip, to call all of them in the name of God and to serve God (shoulder to shoulder as) one shoulder.” (Zephaniah 3:9). Look how all the world already becomes full of the things of the Messiah, and the things of the Torah, and the things of the commandments! And these things spread among the far islands and among the many nations uncircumcized of heart. (Hilkhot Melakhim 11:10–12.)

Epistle to Yemen

“The first one to have adopted this plan was Jesus the Nazarene, may his bones be ground to dust. He was a Jew because his mother was a Jewess although his father was a Gentile. For in accordance with the principles of our law, a child born of a Jewess and a Gentile, or of a Jewess and a slave, is legitimate. (Yebamot 45a). Jesus is only figuratively termed an illegitimate child. He impelled people to believe that he was a prophet sent by God to clarify perplexities in the Torah, and that he was the Messiah that was predicted by each and every seer. He interpreted the Torah and its precepts in such a fashion as to lead to their total annulment, to the abolition of all its commandments and to the violation of its prohibitions. The sages, of blessed memory, having become aware of his plans before his reputation spread among our people, meted out fitting punishment to him.”

“You know that the Christians falsely ascribe marvelous powers to Jesus the Nazarene, may his bones be ground to dust, such as the resurrection of the dead and other miracles. Even if we would grant them for the sake of argument, we should not be convinced by their reasoning that Jesus is the Messiah. For we can bring a thousand proofs or so from the Scripture that it is not so even from their point of view. Indeed, will anyone arrogate this rank to himself unless he wishes to make himself a laughing stock? “

For those who also teach that the Talmud is a accurate historical resource that is good for Christians to reference for Biblical interpretation, I would ask if the Holy Spirit would inspire us read this writing which denies Jesus Christ and blasphemes Him and His finished work, which by Scriptural standards, actually goes against the Word of God that was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

1John 2
21 I have not written unto you because you know not the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: [but] he that confesses the Son has the Father also.

2John 1
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

1John 4
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, of which you have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

So maybe it would be good for anyone who promoted the rabbinic slant as MJ [Messianic Judaism] unknowingly, to now contact their teachers and rabbis who teach this stuff, and inform them that according to Biblical standards, it is anti christ. The only way one can deny this, is to deny the very words of the Bible as evidenced above.

[Vic]

For more reading up on the Talmud, which is merely a stepping stone into Kabbalah, consider this research which was done in 1998/99:

http://www.seekgod.ca/topichr.htm#series >

Part II... The Bible and the Talmud > http://www.seekgod.ca/embracebible.htm

Topics: Error in the Bible, Primacy of the Talmud,
Scribes and Pharisees, Exclusiveness of the Talmud, The Talmud,
Jewish Education and "Halacha"; Global Unity and the Halacha

Part III... The Talmud and Jesus Christ >
http://www.seekgod.ca/embrachrist.htm

Topics: Another Jesus?, Jewish & Christian Terms,
Jesus and Messiah, Messiah and Peace, , Sin and Salvation,
Heaven and Hell, Oneness Doctrine & The Trinity
Christians & the Chosen People, Christian Jews, Common Ideas

Part IV... The Talmud and Demonology >
http://www.seekgod.ca/embracnotal.htm

Topics: Talmudic Magic; Talmudic Demonology,
The Talmudic Myth of Lillith, Talmudic Bestiality,
James Trimm Responds, Makhlath and Agrath
The Midrash: Lillith and Creation,
The Talmud & Kabbalah: Adam the Bisexual,
Teachings of the Sages or Ancient Wisdom

[Dee]

(02-11-2009 06:40 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  [b]The Talmud is an extensive topic.

1John 2
21 I have not written unto you because you know not the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 [color=#FF0000]Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: [but] he that confesses the Son has the Father also.

2John 1
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

1John 4
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, of which you have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

So maybe it would be good for anyone who promoted the rabbinic slant as MJ [Messianic Judaism] unknowingly, to now contact their teachers and rabbis who teach this stuff, and inform them that according to Biblical standards, it is anti christ. The only way one can deny this, is to deny the very words of the Bible as evidenced above.

[/quote]

Agree! For some reason they don't think 1 or 2Jn applies? We were on a walk in a local park and happened upon the local "Torah study" group having a picnic (their tradition for Shavuot). We were chatting with some we knew there for only about 5 minutes when I heard the "leader" saying that "the Talmud is OK for historical reading-- just keep the meat and spit out the bones". I must still need to work on forgiveness, I still get so angry about this. It wouldn't be so bad except that my oldest son just today said this very thing "but it's ok for getting historical information".
About a year ago the other "leader" in the group gave me a pamplet on why wearing a prayer shawl and kippa is biblical (Jesus did too ya know), and after researching which so-called Scripture FFoZ uses for that booklet, marked it up with 1Jn and what I found about their "version" of the Word. Talk about adding to Scripture, the "bible" they use, I forget the name of it now, but it is a compilation of rabbinical and "sages" commentary mixed with actual Scripture. I could not believe it was so blatantly 'added to'. They have just looked at each other and rolled their eyes when I quote 1Jn. (Maybe b/c I am female?) You are right; may the True Spirit of God deliver all affected from this false Way.

[sheep wrecked]

(06-19-2010 01:10 AM)Dee Wrote:  

(02-11-2009 06:40 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  The Talmud is an extensive topic.

1John 2
21 I have not written unto you because you know not the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 [color=#FF0000]Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: [but] he that confesses the Son has the Father also.

2John 1
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

1John 4
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, of which you have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

So maybe it would be good for anyone who promoted the rabbinic slant as MJ [Messianic Judaism] unknowingly, to now contact their teachers and rabbis who teach this stuff, and inform them that according to Biblical standards, it is anti christ. The only way one can deny this, is to deny the very words of the Bible as evidenced above.

Agree! For some reason they don't think 1 or 2Jn applies? We were on a walk in a local park and happened upon the local "Torah study" group having a picnic (their tradition for Shavuot). We were chatting with some we knew there for only about 5 minutes when I heard the "leader" saying that "the Talmud is OK for historical reading-- just keep the meat and spit out the bones". I must still need to work on forgiveness, I still get so angry about this. It wouldn't be so bad except that my oldest son just today said this very thing "but it's ok for getting historical information".
About a year ago the other "leader" in the group gave me a pamplet on why wearing a prayer shawl and kippa is biblical (Jesus did too ya know), and after researching which so-called Scripture FFoZ uses for that booklet, marked it up with 1Jn and what I found about their "version" of the Word. Talk about adding to Scripture, the "bible" they use, I forget the name of it now, but it is a compilation of rabbinical and "sages" commentary mixed with actual Scripture. I could not believe it was so blatantly 'added to'. They have just looked at each other and rolled their eyes when I quote 1Jn. (Maybe b/c I am female?) You are right; may the True Spirit of God deliver all affected from this false Way.

Dee, the reason those texts are used shows they deny Christ. FFOZ is using a Christ denying system to interpret the Bible. The Talmud adds to and subtracts and twists God's Word.

I am wondering what about the Talmud would be considered "historical", as it is said to be proof of Talmudic Judaism from Mt Sinai which is a a lot of conjecture. Of course if you want info on how the religion of Judaism is practiced, it's great. But it has nothing to do with Biblical facts or truth, or Jesus Christ which denigrates and denies Him.

[YYZ Skinhead]

(02-12-2009 11:16 AM)Vic Wrote:  For more reading up on the Talmud, which is merely a stepping stone into Kabbalah, consider this research which was done in 1998/99:

http://www.seekgod.ca/topichr.htm#series >

Part II... The Bible and the Talmud > http://www.seekgod.ca/embracebible.htm

Topics: Error in the Bible, Primacy of the Talmud,
Scribes and Pharisees, Exclusiveness of the Talmud, The Talmud,
Jewish Education and "Halacha"; Global Unity and the Halacha

Part III... The Talmud and Jesus Christ >
http://www.seekgod.ca/embrachrist.htm

Topics: Another Jesus?, Jewish & Christian Terms,
Jesus and Messiah, Messiah and Peace, , Sin and Salvation,
Heaven and Hell, Oneness Doctrine & The Trinity
Christians & the Chosen People, Christian Jews, Common Ideas

Part IV... The Talmud and Demonology >
http://www.seekgod.ca/embracnotal.htm

Topics: Talmudic Magic; Talmudic Demonology,
The Talmudic Myth of Lillith, Talmudic Bestiality,
James Trimm Responds, Makhlath and Agrath
The Midrash: Lillith and Creation,
The Talmud & Kabbalah: Adam the Bisexual,
Teachings of the Sages or Ancient Wisdom

I've read the Talmud articles and the various excerpts from the Talmud are VERY hard to read through. It's like trying to read Christian Gnosticism.

[sheep wrecked]

(06-20-2010 11:17 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote:  I've read the Talmud articles and the various excerpts from the Talmud are VERY hard to read through. It's like trying to read Christian Gnosticism.

It is definitely extremely complex and legalistic. I think it is intentionally so. That way people have to rely on Rabbinic "interpretations" to understand how to live. It's a massive control issue. But not much different than the church system where pastors are treated as spiritual, theological, and educational superiors who constantly promote that their church is where "one finds" God and the truth.

[Dee]

(06-20-2010 11:17 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote:  

(02-12-2009 11:16 AM)Vic Wrote:  For more reading up on the Talmud, which is merely a stepping stone into Kabbalah, consider this research which was done in 1998/99:

http://www.seekgod.ca/topichr.htm#series >

Part II... The Bible and the Talmud > http://www.seekgod.ca/embracebible.htm

Topics: Error in the Bible, Primacy of the Talmud,
Scribes and Pharisees, Exclusiveness of the Talmud, The Talmud,
Jewish Education and "Halacha"; Global Unity and the Halacha

Part III... The Talmud and Jesus Christ >
http://www.seekgod.ca/embrachrist.htm

Topics: Another Jesus?, Jewish & Christian Terms,
Jesus and Messiah, Messiah and Peace, , Sin and Salvation,
Heaven and Hell, Oneness Doctrine & The Trinity
Christians & the Chosen People, Christian Jews, Common Ideas

Part IV... The Talmud and Demonology >
http://www.seekgod.ca/embracnotal.htm

Topics: Talmudic Magic; Talmudic Demonology,
The Talmudic Myth of Lillith, Talmudic Bestiality,
James Trimm Responds, Makhlath and Agrath
The Midrash: Lillith and Creation,
The Talmud & Kabbalah: Adam the Bisexual,
Teachings of the Sages or Ancient Wisdom

I've read the Talmud articles and the various excerpts from the Talmud are VERY hard to read through. It's like trying to read Christian Gnosticism.

I've only read a few parts online while doing research on what they call Jesus and where they say He came from, and when trying to figure out why some groups have mandatory head covering. I would rather keep my mind in the Truth.

I'm not sure why the HR group here says they use it for "historical" reasons. I know the leader's wife says it to me when she doesn't want to talk any further about "it". It's a useful escape phrase I guess. Most of what they do say is parroted from CDs they listen to. I need a list of "answers" to refute their brainwashing. One person last year actually told me she believed the talmud(s) to be "inspired". I had a long debate via email with her, which I found out she printed out and gave all of my "judgmental hate mail" (1st John is not tolerant lol) over to the leader. Are we supposed to expose these errors in (any church) group, or just quietly leave?

After reading more pages of this site, many things are coming to my mind about my experiences. Even in their teaching "Hebrew", I have found out that it's not just the alef bet, but along with it comes rabbinical thought and "stories of the sages", very subtlely washing their "sheep" with it while teaching "God's pure language".

[sheep wrecked]

(06-21-2010 11:56 AM)Dee Wrote:  I've only read a few parts online while doing research on what they call Jesus and where they say He came from, and when trying to figure out why some groups have mandatory head covering. I would rather keep my mind in the Truth.

I'm not sure why the HR group here says they use it for "historical" reasons. I know the leader's wife says it to me when she doesn't want to talk any further about "it". It's a useful escape phrase I guess. Most of what they do say is parroted from CDs they listen to. I need a list of "answers" to refute their brainwashing. One person last year actually told me she believed the talmud(s) to be "inspired". I had a long debate via email with her, which I found out she printed out and gave all of my "judgmental hate mail" (1st John is not tolerant lol) over to the leader. Are we supposed to expose these errors in (any church) group, or just quietly leave?

After reading more pages of this site, many things are coming to my mind about my experiences. Even in their teaching "Hebrew", I have found out that it's not just the alef bet, but along with it comes rabbinical thought and "stories of the sages", very subtlely washing their "sheep" with it while teaching "God's pure language".

The Hebrew Roots movement is full of Talmudic/kabbalistic system. I read a statement by one Jewish Rabbi that stated all the Rabbis who contributed to the Talmud were kabbalists. After reading many articles and commentaries in Judaism, I am convinced of it. kabbalah is a very subtle poison. It is infiltrating the church teachings as well.

Most people in roots have no clue about the sources of their teachings. It is common for teachers to introduce phrases and myths which people do not check out. For instance, the the Talmud is "historical", it's ok to read. There are plenty of historical sources that one can go to - the Talmud builds legends and myths, and is not that accurate historically. Often, historical events are plumped up to make it appear good instead of bad - like the whole Hanukkah thing. The Talmud also relates many stories that are scripted to support particular concepts. The Talmud is the holy book of Judaism, it is a not a history book

The NT tells us that we are to expose and then walk away. I know when God is wanting me to expose and to whom and for how long. God is the one who opens people's eyes to the truth - we just present the facts and Scripture. The problem with taking on leadership is that they are not real open to "dissenters" no matter how tactful one is. It is an affront to them and they view it as displacing their authority [touch not God's annointed]. I think one on one is more effective. In a group setting you can easily become the enemy because people are crowd pleasers [on the same team] and most are there to confirm their own beliefs, not to be confronted with the truth aka you get ganged up on.

It's interesting that you mentioned learning Hebrew with Talmudic influence - actually it's gematria which is kabbalah. The meanings of letters and names, which are assigned numerical value is mysticism/gematria. If only all those Christians who bought into the Bible Codes knew they are involved in kabbalah. People sure have a lot of time on their hands running after everything but running towards Jesus.

[YYZ Skinhead]

(06-21-2010 11:56 AM)Dee Wrote:  I'm not sure why the HR group here says they use it for "historical" reasons. I know the leader's wife says it to me when she doesn't want to talk any further about "it". It's a useful escape phrase I guess. Most of what they do say is parroted from CDs they listen to. I need a list of "answers" to refute their brainwashing. One person last year actually told me she believed the talmud(s) to be "inspired". I had a long debate via email with her, which I found out she printed out and gave all of my "judgmental hate mail" (1st John is not tolerant lol) over to the leader.

The Talmud is definitely "inspired", but it isn't inspired by the God of Israel, and we all know who inspires "Biblical" religious doctrine that is not of God. The various "Christian" Bible codes are inspired by the same source as the Talmud.

---

(06-21-2010 12:56 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  The Hebrew Roots movement is full of Talmudic/kabbalistic system. I read a statement by one Jewish Rabbi that stated all the Rabbis who contributed to the Talmud were kabbalists. After reading many articles and commentaries in Judaism, I am convinced of it. kabbalah is a very subtle poison. It is infiltrating the church teachings as well.

Most people in roots have no clue about the sources of their teachings. It is common for teachers to introduce phrases and myths which people do not check out. For instance, the the Talmud is "historical", it's ok to read. There are plenty of historical sources that one can go to - the Talmud builds legends and myths, and is not that accurate historically. Often, historical events are plumped up to make it appear good instead of bad - like the whole Hanukkah thing. The Talmud also relates many stories that are scripted to support particular concepts. The Talmud is the holy book of Judaism, it is a not a history book

The NT tells us that we are to expose and then walk away. I know when God is wanting me to expose and to whom and for how long. God is the one who opens people's eyes to the truth - we just present the facts and Scripture. The problem with taking on leadership is that they are not real open to "dissenters" no matter how tactful one is. It is an affront to them and they view it as displacing their authority [touch not God's annointed]. I think one on one is more effective. In a group setting you can easily become the enemy because people are crowd pleasers [on the same team] and most are there to confirm their own beliefs, not to be confronted with the truth aka you get ganged up on.

It's interesting that you mentioned learning Hebrew with Talmudic influence - actually it's gematria which is kabbalah. The meanings of letters and names, which are assigned numerical value is mysticism/gematria. If only all those Christians who bought into the Bible Codes knew they are involved in kabbalah. People sure have a lot of time on their hands running after everything but running towards Jesus.

Is gematria numerology (which would make it a form of divination)? I couldn't figure it out any easier than the Talmudic quotes, but I know a bit about "Western" numerology, which supposedly can determine traits about the victim based on numbers, letters, names, etc.

[sheep wrecked]

(06-21-2010 05:06 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote:  Is gematria numerology (which would make it a form of divination)? I couldn't figure it out any easier than the Talmudic quotes, but I know a bit about "Western" numerology, which supposedly can determine traits about the victim based on numbers, letters, names, etc.

I am not sure. I thot divination was looking into the future - like a psychic today. It's definitely esoteric.

here is Webster's definition because the lexicons do not define it - however, they do call it witchcraft.

Main Entry: div·i·na·tion
Pronunciation: \ˌdi-və-ˈnā-shən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English divinacioun, from Latin divination-, divinatio, from divinare
Date: 14th century
1 : the art or practice that seeks to foresee or foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge usually by the interpretation of omens or by the aid of supernatural powers
2 : unusual insight : intuitive perception

kabbalah originated in Babylon but was not defined until around the 13th century AD with the channeled writing of the Zohar, so numerology could come from that into other systems of practice. It all comes from the same source - the occult.