Can we lose Salvation?

[Vic]

Vic Wrote:
(July 13th, 2012 09:04 pm)mjmselim Wrote:
Just reading and passing on. The Lord's words and judgment in John 5 came to mind:
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth Him all things that Himself doeth: and He will shew Him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:Joh 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father Which hath sent Him.Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in Himself;Joh 5:27 And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.[/quote]

Exactly right.

Mary wrote :

Quote:It is a bit confusing though. I believe that I will "pass from death to life and be eternally with Jesus; so does this verse, and what I think are related verses in Revelation 2, 20 and 21 about the "second death;" mean that unbelievers will be in hell twice? or is there a period of time for unbelievers in which they are 'just dead /sleeping?' If so, is this " the grave" or what I think the Bible also refers to as Sheol?

That all needs to be and will be discussed in another thread as it is taking it way off topic even more so than it has been the last few posts.

Mary wrote :

Quote:What then are the implications of these verses

Psalm 139: vs 7-8
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

First and foremost--context of the Psalm. It's of David who loved God and was a prophet of God. Let's put it all in so we can see the scope of meaning, rather that merely pulling those 2 verses out.

Psa 139:1 <To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.> O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
Psa 139:2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
Psa 139:3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
Psa 139:4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
Psa 139:5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
Psa 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
Psa 139:11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
Psa 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
Psa 139:17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
Psa 139:18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
Psa 139:19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
Psa 139:20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
Psa 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
Psa 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Psa 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
Psa 139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Verses 1-18, is David expounding on the omnipresence and power of God and how He knows every part of David, from when he was conceived, to his thoughts, even before they are known to himself. He acknowledges that no matter if he wakes or sleeps, wherever he goes, God is with him, and surrounds him with His protection and it overwhelms David to know that there is no place he could go that God is not able to be with him and it is almost more than David comprehend.

V6-7 David is pointing out that there is no place on earth that he could go, nor any could go to flee from God, that God would not be there with him, no matter how difficult it might seem to us, David had the assurance God would have hold of him and lead him.
The qualifier for v7 is IF David were to ascend to heaven, God would be there---no man can ascend to heaven except who?

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The qualifier of IF David were to make his bed in hell, he declares God would even be there. Can we as humans descend to hell on our own? The answer is no.

People are not going to be happily going into hell, or as David, said, make his bed there, they are thrown in, taken by force and thrown into hell.

Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The word cast is throw. Whether they like it or not they will be cast into the fire.

G906
βάλλω
ballō
Thayer Definition:
1) to throw or let go of a thing without caring where it falls
1a) to scatter, to throw, cast into
1b) to give over to one’s care uncertain about the result
1c) of fluids
1c1) to pour, pour into of rivers
1c2) to pour out
2) to put into, insert
Part of Speech: verb

Strong's G906
βάλλω
ballō
bal'-lo
A primary verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense): - arise, cast (out), X dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Compare G4496.

V9 follows through with the IF qualifier of David saying if he were to take the wings of the morning...does the morning have wings? No. Can we dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea? No we cannot dwell in the sea. V10 affirms that even in those impossible places, that no human can go to, God will still be there.

10-12 Affirming again that even if David was in total darkness God would still see him and be there and give him the comfort of His presence, ie it will appear light about him. Night or day, darkness or light God will always be there no matter what. v13, David affirms that God has possessed his mind/feelings and emotions, and known him even in the womb.

The reins is mentioned in other verses such as: Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Psa 7:8 The LORD shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.
Psa 7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.
Psa 7:10 My defence is of God, which saveth the upright in heart.

1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

David then acknowledges, reveres and praises God for God's majesty and for how wonderful and marvellous are God's works, and especially for making him, acknowledging God's incredible power and presence which his very soul realises. He points out how God knew him and every part of his being before and when he was made, and even though he was just forming in the womb, God still knew every aspect of him, bodily and spiritually.

v17, David goes on and declares how precious it is to have God consider him and God's thoughts towards him., and that he can't even calculate how many they could be that God has for him, and that even when he is awake, God is still with him.

Because of understanding God's hand on his life, and God's protection no matter what happens and wherever he could be, David goes into God's dealing with the wicked, saying He will slay them.

V19-22 is David imploring God to deal with those that speak wickedly against God Himself, and who are God's enemies, as well as David's. They take the Lords' name in vain and David hates them with righteous hatred, because they rise up against God, and he is grieved that they dishonor and despise God, and counts God's enemies as his enemies as well.

v23-24 David returns to his relationship with God, asking God to again search him because He knows his heart and every part of him, and asks God that if there be any wickedness, that God would lead him in the 'way everlasting'.

Mary wrote :

Quote:Romans 8: vs 38 - 39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

do these verses suggest that believers will also be in the "grave/sleeping until the 'first resurrection?'

No. They are a continuation of declaring that, just as David declared, absolutely nothing, no place, imagined or real, present or in the future, no one can ever separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord, meaning speaking to those who belong to Him. We are more than conquerors in Christ Jesus, and this passage is talking about those who belong to Jesus Christ and how God protects and keeps those who have believed Christ and are justified by Him. God freely gives us all we need and is with us no matter what.

Context... in part.... Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Heb 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

[Mary]

[Vic]

(07-15-2012 08:00 PM)Mary Wrote:  

Just another verse I came across:

Jer 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?
Jer 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

[Vic]

Regarding the whole concept of losing salvation--I have always believed the the wrong question is asked.

The question should really be --can one forfeit their salvation?
Not can one lose their salvation

1Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

forsake >Strong's > H5800
עזב
‛âzab
aw-zab'
A primitive root; to loosen, that is, relinquish, permit, etc.: - commit self, fail, forsake, fortify, help, leave (destitute, off), refuse, X surely.

cast thee off >H2186
זנח
zânach
BDB Definition:
1) to cast off, reject, spurn
1a) (Qal) to reject
1b) (Hiphil) to forcefully reject someone
2) to stink, emit stench, become odious
2a) (Hiphil) stink (perfect)
Part of Speech: verb

Isa 1:28 But the destruction of the transgressors and the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.


Pro 29:1 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Joh 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Pro 26:10 The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.
Pro 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Pro 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

[Solo Christo]

(07-18-2012 04:37 PM)Vic Wrote:  can one forfeit their salvation?

I think we can definitely postpone it, however I think just as we inherited Adam’s sin, so we will eventually inherit Christ’s gift, once we repent & turn to Him with the Holy Spirit’s help.

(07-18-2012 04:37 PM)Vic Wrote:  1Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

That reminds me of

Lam 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever

Interestingly H2186 is that verse too. The author goes on to explain why

Lam 3:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.

Note the wide scope of “the children of men”, the HCSB translates that as “mankind”.

However, as you showed with the other passages you quoted, Scripture certainly talks of our forsaking of God & Him responding to that.

[Vic]

(07-19-2012 10:44 PM)Solo Christo Wrote:  

(07-18-2012 04:37 PM)Vic Wrote:  can one forfeit their salvation?

I think we can definitely postpone it, however I think just as we inherited Adam’s sin, so we will eventually inherit Christ’s gift, once we repent & turn to Him with the Holy Spirit’s help.

(07-18-2012 04:37 PM)Vic Wrote:  1Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

That reminds me of

Lam 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever

Interestingly H2186 is that verse too. The author goes on to explain why

Lam 3:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.

Note the wide scope of “the children of men”, the HCSB translates that as “mankind”.

However, as you showed with the other passages you quoted, Scripture certainly talks of our forsaking of God & Him responding to that.

Yes even through God's chastisement, persecutions and trials, God is still there, for all those who hope in Him as the prior verses in that passage point out. Even when feeling defeated a person who believes God can be reminded that our hope is in Him, waiting upon Him to help and deliver us --v18 goes from despair to remembering that God never fails. But notice what it says.

Lam 3:18 And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD:
Lam 3:19 Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall.
Lam 3:20 My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me.
Lam 3:21 This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.
Lam 3:22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
Lam 3:23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.
Lam 3:24 The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him.
Lam 3:25 The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him.
Lam 3:26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

Because he knows that God will not cast off forever the person who seeks Him and hopes in Him...key thoughts there Alex.

And no He doesn't like to afflict willingly or grieve people---but He does it. Even as parents we chastise and punish as needed with our children, but we don't enjoy it, but many children reject those corrections and refuse to listen. And many many passages reveal He does afflict and destroy these who turn their backs on Him and go after other gods etc. And if you look further "to crush under his feet and so on...."

And if you recall, God has destroyed people for their rebellion from off the face of the earth.

Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Gen 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Those who believe God have His precious promises and can hope in Him.

[Lois]

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

You have to be one of His sheep.

I think there are people that think they are one of His sheep but they are not.



Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



We have to be acquainted with God and I don't believe it is a casual acquaintance..but a deep abiding relationship with Him.

The question is can we lose salvation, but I think the question really is were we ever saved to begin with?

Anyone can say Jesus is Lord, or Jesus Christ is our Savior but empty words do not save anyone.