Can we lose Salvation?

[Lois]

Solo,
I would like if you could possibly keep in mind that this is a Christian forum not an EU forum.
I don't appreciate you putting your EU twist on things throughout the forum.You have your own EU forum to disseminate your beliefs in.

Quote:Specifically regarding being lost in a permanent sense, then obviously I'd say "no", because the Bible (e.g. 1Cor 15:28) promises that no one will reject God's love forever, that eventually God will be everything to everyone (all in all).

The bible does not say this,"because the Bible (e.g. 1Cor 15:28) promises that no one will reject God's love forever, that eventually God will be everything to everyone (all in all)."

You mistakenly think this is an open forum of which you may use to disseminate your EU beliefs.
This is Vic's website,her forum.She has a statement of faith and rules for her forum.
This is a Christian forum.We adhere to the bible as being the word of God and not just the words of translators.
You don't have to agree with the forums statement of faith but you do have to follow the rules, which you have not been doing.


A quote from the forum rules:

Quote:Blasphemy will not be tolerated. Those not of the Christian faith are welcome to become members but, need to keep it very clearly in their mind that derogatory remarks about God, Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit, in any language, are not to be used as expletives or interjections or in an abusive, mocking, or insulting way . The same for hate based remarks about Christianity. It is solely at the admin discretion to not only delete those types of things, but possibly permanently ban the poster, with or without warnings. That goes also for any filth concerning the Bible. If you don't believe it, then please ask questions, but be aware that we believe the Bible to be the Word of God and it is not to be taken lightly. We also believe it is the standard to which we weigh beliefs, doctrines, ideas and behaviors.

Don't become a member to Spam us with your: doctrine, errant beliefs, books, merchandise, website, blogs, etc. Don't repetitively post similar or identical posts or threads. We have zero tolerance for solicitation of commercial products, porn, etc. We want members to feel they can enjoy their stay, not have to be hounded by spammers.

Forum Rules http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=229

[Vic]

Don't sweat it Lois. Solo is quite welcome to post his understandings and I will address them asap. I've already reminded him of the forum rules which I know he has posted that he finds restrctive and some unnecessary. And that's fine. Don't worry about what's posted. I plan to respond and address these issues.

Unfortunately unexpected out of town company visited yesterday keeping me from posting then, and unexpected visit from family arriving shortly will keep me from posting as I had hoped, today. Best laid plans and all that...Sorry for the delays but I will be addressing things.

PLease to all, no more personal attacks, keep to the topic of threads where possible. Thank you.

[Solo Christo]

Lois Wrote:Solo,
I would like if you could possibly keep in mind that this is a Christian forum not an EU forum.

The EU forum is also a Christian forum.

Lois Wrote:I don't appreciate you putting your EU twist on things throughout the forum.You have your own EU forum to disseminate your beliefs in.

Yesterday you told me that you & Vic wanted me to “keep the dialog in the open forum”, and that “there are many other threads in the forum to post on”. I’m simply trying to comply and have been careful to:
- only post on existing topics
- make sure my comments engage with what others have written
- not quote 3rd parties
- not to link
- not to try to sell books
- use KJV where possible or specify translation

Furthermore, of the posts I did yesterday, 5 out of 7 had nothing to do with EU & made no mention of it!

I Wrote:Specifically regarding being lost in a permanent sense, then obviously I'd say "no", because the Bible (e.g. 1Cor 15:28) promises that no one will reject God's love forever, that eventually God will be everything to everyone (all in all).

Lois Wrote:The bible does not say this,"because the Bible (e.g. 1Cor 15:28) promises that no one will reject God's love forever, that eventually God will be everything to everyone (all in all)."

Some Christians, including Early Church Fathers, believe that’s a perfectly reasonable interpretation of 1Cor 15:28, otherwise in what sense is God “all in all” in someone who hates Him in hell??

Lois Wrote:You mistakenly think this is an open forum of which you may use to disseminate your EU beliefs.

Yesterday you said it was an “open forum”.

Lois Wrote:This is Vic's website,her forum.She has a statement of faith and rules for her forum.

Yes, I’ve acknowledged that all along, which is why I’ve obeyed her rules as best I could.

Lois Wrote:This is a Christian forum.We adhere to the bible as being the word of God and not just the words of translators.

I also believe the Bible is the Word of God, which is why I want to make sure translators are translating it correctly (which, praise God, they appear to be doing most of the time).

Lois Wrote:You don't have to agree with the forums statement of faith but you do have to follow the rules, which you have not been doing.

Which bit of the statement of faith do you think I disagree with?? Where have I broken the rules??

Lois Wrote:A quote from the forum rules:

Quote:Blasphemy will not be tolerated. Those not of the Christian faith are welcome to become members but, need to keep it very clearly in their mind that derogatory remarks about God, Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit, in any language, are not to be used as expletives or interjections or in an abusive, mocking, or insulting way . The same for hate based remarks about Christianity. It is solely at the admin discretion to not only delete those types of things, but possibly permanently ban the poster, with or without warnings. That goes also for any filth concerning the Bible. If you don't believe it, then please ask questions, but be aware that we believe the Bible to be the Word of God and it is not to be taken lightly. We also believe it is the standard to which we weigh beliefs, doctrines, ideas and behaviors.

As far as I know I’ve haven’t said anything filthy, especially not about the Bible (the Word of God) that I hold as critically important.

Lois Wrote:Don't become a member to Spam us with your: doctrine, errant beliefs, books, merchandise, website, blogs, etc. Don't repetitively post similar or identical posts or threads. We have zero tolerance for solicitation of commercial products, porn, etc. We want members to feel they can enjoy their stay, not have to be hounded by spammers.

I trust Vic will let me know if she believes I’m spamming. However, as I said above, 5 out of 7 had nothing to do with EU. When I did post about EU it was in response to other people’s posts about Universalism, so I don’t think that’s spamming.

(07-08-2012 02:34 PM)Vic Wrote:  Don't sweat it Lois. Solo is quite welcome to post his understandings and I will address them asap. I've already reminded him of the forum rules which I know he has posted that he finds restrctive and some unnecessary. And that's fine. Don't worry about what's posted. I plan to respond and address these issues.

Unfortunately unexpected out of town company visited yesterday keeping me from posting then, and unexpected visit from family arriving shortly will keep me from posting as I had hoped, today. Best laid plans and all that...Sorry for the delays but I will be addressing things.

PLease to all, no more personal attacks, keep to the topic of threads where possible. Thank you.

Thanks Vic, no probs about delay, it’s more important that you spend quality time with your unexpected company

[Vic]

Solo said

Quote:As I think salvation is "now & not yet" (e.g. we are already seated with Christ in heaven according to Eph 2:6, but obviously still here on earth too) it's makes it a little tricky to answer the question. I think passages like Col 1:20 portray salvation/reconciliation as something that has already be accomplished, however other passages describe it as something yet to be actualised/realised among everyone (hence some people are described as believers & some non-believers).

For Col 1:20, KJV Wrote:
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Specifically regarding being lost in a permanent sense, then obviously I'd say "no", because the Bible (e.g. 1Cor 15:28) promises that no one will reject God's love forever, that eventually God will be everything to everyone (all in all).

For 1Cor 15:28, KJV Wrote:
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Let's take Colossians 1:20 in context.

Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
Col 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
Col 1:5 [b]For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: ...

Who is being addressed. The saints and faithful in Christ Jesus. IN others words those alive in Christ and determined to live for Him. They heard the 'word of truth' and received and obeyed it and were living for Christ, acknowledging the hope awaiting them in heaven, that of eternal life that is being with Him forever. The word of truth of the gospel came to them as it also was in 'all the world', meaning all mankind was being given opportunity to know Christ and receive salvation from the time Christ died and rose and brought in the New Covenant.

Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

So Paul was admonishing and encouraging the saints--those who belong to Jesus Christ---as they sojourn on the earth, alive in the flesh, to walk worthy of the Lord, to be fruitful and increase in knowledge of God. All those in Christ are strengthened by His glorious power to endure with patience, longsuffering and joyfulness, and giving thanks to the Father who has made us--believers--- partakers of the inheritance of the saints. And who are the saints. Those who receive and live for Jesus Christ while on this earth. Because He has delivered us from the power of darkness into the kingdom of Christ, and through Him have redemption, that is, forgiveness of sins. Nothing more can be read into those statements as to who is being addressed and the end result.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who {meaning Jesus} is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, **which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven;** whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Still referring to the work of Christ, that, just as is stated in John 1, by Him and through Him are all things created for Him. And Christ is the head of the body which is the church,-comprised of believers- being the firstborn from the dead, showing He has the power over life and death. He can reconcile all things to Himself, indicating those who believe, that is the saints, who were previously alienated by wicked works and thoughts, as noted above, Paul is referring to the saints at Colosse, but were now reconciled to God by Christ, through his death; who is able to present them/believers holy and unblameable and unreprovable in his sight, and Paul admonishes those affirmations with v23 by saying to the saints, IF you continue in the faith, grounded and settled and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which they had heard and which had/has been preached to every creature which is under heaven.

IN other words, all humanity on earth will have been given opportunity to hear the Gospel of Christ being the only way, salvation and the need of repentance in order to know God. All those reconciled in Christ while on this earth, are the ones being referenced in this passage.

There is nothing suggesting any will not have been given opportunity to know Him before they die, because all those who have/are denying Him are making a decision to deny Him in the past and now, and God knows who would never desire to know Him. All those issues are God's issues, and He will indeed sort it all out because His judgments are perfect. It does not intimate that it is in reference to those who have been sent to hell, but rather those who are alive on the earth, are or have been given that opportunity.

Quite frankly those in hell aren't going to be fruitful, aren't going to be walking by faith and growing in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. They are not going to learn to run the race with patient endurance, and enduring persecution with longsuffering, joy and peace. That is not what unbelievers are appointed to. There is no Scripture that says they are going to live in victory in hell nor does it say they will be rooted and built up in Him, keeping His Word, being soldiers of the cross and so on.

1 Corinthians 15:28 in context:

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The church is referred to as His body and being the fulness of him that filleth all believers and meaning He will be in all who have come to Him. The church is not comprised of anyone who does not belong to Jesus Christ. All who come to Him and are viewed in the Scriptures as being 'the church', do so while alive on this earth.

I see no Scripture stating that those in hell are part of the Body of Christ, the church. That they will live and walk in victory, exuding the fruit of the Spirit and good works as God calls all believers to, but rather those who believe are called to walk a different walk than those who serve the flesh and the god of this world, walking in disobedience. That is not the life Christ calls all believers to.

Let's refer to some parallel verses with regard to 'put all his enemies under his feet' and the last enemy destroyed is death:

2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

hath brought life and immortality to light

G5461
φωτίζω
phōtizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to give light, to shine
2) to enlighten, light up, illumine
3) to bring to light, render evident
3a) to cause something to exist and thus come to light and become clear to all
4) to enlighten, spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge
4a) to instruct, to inform, teach
4b) to give understanding to
Part of Speech: verb

G2222
ζωή
zōē
Thayer Definition:
1) life
1a) the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate
1b) every living soul
2) life
2a) of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the hypostatic “logos” and to Christ in whom the “logos” put on human nature
2b) life real and genuine, a life active and vigorous, devoted to God, blessed, in the portion even in this world of those who put their trust in Christ, but after the resurrection to be consummated by new accessions (among them a more perfect body), and to last for ever.
Part of Speech: noun feminine

G2532
καί
kai
Thayer Definition:
1) and, also, even, indeed, but
Part of Speech: conjunction

G861
ἀφθαρσία
aphtharsia
Thayer Definition:
1) incorruption, perpetuity
2) purity, sincerity, incorrupt
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G862

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

G5286
ὑποπόδιον
hupopodion
Thayer Definition:
1) a footstool
1a) to make one a footstool of one’s feet, i.e. to subject, to reduce under one’s power
1b) metaphorically taken from the practice of conquerors who placed their feet on the necks of their conquered enemies
Part of Speech: noun neuter

sanctified
G37
ἁγιάζω
hagiazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow
2) to separate from profane things and dedicate to God
2a) consecrate things to God
2b) dedicate people to God
3) to purify
3a) to cleanse externally
3b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
3c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul
Part of Speech: verb

In other words, it is not suggesting the enemies of Christ will turn to Him in love and adoration, or those in hell will, but rather they will be subdued, destroyed or conquered that is, overcome. Hence facing the appointed fate of judgment and wrath as described in many other verses, for those who refused salvation, hence Him, while on this earth.

Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

So we know if we wilfully live to the flesh, and sin wilfully, deliberately not living for Christ in obedience to His call on our lives, there is no more sacrifice for those sins. We are in fact rejecting what He has done for us and what He has called us to. Therefore v27 states that the expectation will be facing judgment and wrath which shall 'devour' or consume or destroy those who are adversaries of Christ. It doesn't say maybe. It says 'shall devour the adversaries'.

adversaries

G5227
ὑπεναντίος
hupenantios
Thayer Definition:
1) opposite to
1a) set over against: meeting one another
2) opposed to, contrary to, an adversary

So those who had known the truth became the adversaries, because they chose to not live for Christ.

I am going to stop here because I don't want this thread to be about EU.

[Solo Christo]

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  Let's take Colossians 1:20 in context.

I agree context is important, however isn’t immediate context generally more important than context further out? In this case I’d suggest the immediate context is within the verse itself, as it emphasises that “all things” are not just things on earth but also things in heaven. I think the next layer out of context should be looking at the scope of “all things” in v18. Hopefully we’d agree that Christ has preeminence over everything, with the Father being the only exception? Likewise, both “all things” in v17 & both “all things” in v16 surely have the same universal scope as v18? Therefore given that “all things” is universal in the 5 occurrences in the 4 preceding verses, I think it’s fair to say the weight of context is that “all things” in v20 is also universal...

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
Col 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
Col 1:5 [b]For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: ...

Who is being addressed. The saints and faithful in Christ Jesus. IN others words those alive in Christ and determined to live for Him. They heard the 'word of truth' and received and obeyed it and were living for Christ, acknowledging the hope awaiting them in heaven, that of eternal life that is being with Him forever. The word of truth of the gospel came to them as it also was in 'all the world', meaning all mankind was being given opportunity to know Christ and receive salvation from the time Christ died and rose and brought in the New Covenant.

I agree the letter was initially written to the Colossian Christians, however the NT shows us that the letters were “passed around”, & that set a precedent (i.e. that’s why we still read/apply the Bible them today). Furthermore, the letters often address people outside the scope of the introduction of the letter (e.g. the letter to the Romans addresses the universal sinfulness of humanity, which is why we often use it in evangelism).

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

So Paul was admonishing and encouraging the saints--those who belong to Jesus Christ---as they sojourn on the earth, alive in the flesh, to walk worthy of the Lord, to be fruitful and increase in knowledge of God. All those in Christ are strengthened by His glorious power to endure with patience, longsuffering and joyfulness, and giving thanks to the Father who has made us--believers--- partakers of the inheritance of the saints. And who are the saints. Those who receive and live for Jesus Christ while on this earth. Because He has delivered us from the power of darkness into the kingdom of Christ, and through Him have redemption, that is, forgiveness of sins. Nothing more can be read into those statements as to who is being addressed and the end result.

I agree, so far he’s focusing on the saints.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who {meaning Jesus} is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, **which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven;** whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Still referring to the work of Christ, that, just as is stated in John 1, by Him and through Him are all things created for Him. And Christ is the head of the body which is the church,-comprised of believers- being the firstborn from the dead, showing He has the power over life and death. He can reconcile all things to Himself, indicating those who believe, that is the saints, who were previously alienated by wicked works and thoughts, as noted above, Paul is referring to the saints at Colosse, but were now reconciled to God by Christ, through his death; who is able to present them/believers holy and unblameable and unreprovable in his sight, and Paul admonishes those affirmations with v23 by saying to the saints, IF you continue in the faith, grounded and settled and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which they had heard and which had/has been preached to every creature which is under heaven.

You appear to strongly link v20 with the following verses, however I think Paul is switching from universal scope, back to just Christians in v21. I think the phrase “And you” (& the continued use of “you” in the following verses rather than “all things”) indicates that, which I assume is why most translations (e.g. ESV, HCSB, NIV, NKJV, NASB) have v21 as a start of a new paragraph.

I agree with you that the role of Christ in creating “all things” is also established in other passages (e.g. Rom 11:36). Likewise I agree Christ overcoming death, undoing Adam’s trespass & therefore resulting in everyone’s resurrection, is strong concept in the NT.

I agree that continuing in faith is necessary, something we all need the Holy Spirit’s help with. However, I don’t those that don’t continue are therefore permanently excluded from the possibility of having faith later.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  IN other words, all humanity on earth will have been given opportunity to hear the Gospel of Christ being the only way, salvation and the need of repentance in order to know God.

I agree.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  All those reconciled in Christ while on this earth, are the ones being referenced in this passage.

I agree if by “this passage” you mean v21-24.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  There is nothing suggesting any will not have been given opportunity to know Him before they die, because all those who have/are denying Him are making a decision to deny Him in the past and now, and God knows who would never desire to know Him. All those issues are God's issues, and He will indeed sort it all out because His judgments are perfect. It does not intimate that it is in reference to those who have been sent to hell, but rather those who are alive on the earth, are or have been given that opportunity.

Assuming everyone has been given the opportunity before they die have, doesn’t mean one’s initial decision is permanently binding. e.g the Prodigal Son’s initial negative decision didn’t indicate a final negative destination. I don’t think God created anyone who would “never desire to know Him”. I agree God will sort it all out - perfectly - (I don’t view anything in hell as yet “perfect”).

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  Quite frankly those in hell aren't going to be fruitful, aren't going to be walking by faith and growing in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. They are not going to learn to run the race with patient endurance, and enduring persecution with longsuffering, joy and peace. That is not what unbelievers are appointed to. There is no Scripture that says they are going to live in victory in hell nor does it say they will be rooted and built up in Him, keeping His Word, being soldiers of the cross and so on.

Whilst I agree the Bible does encourage fruitfulness/growth/learning, I think all these are in response to God’s forgiveness, not a way to earn salvation. Do you think that if Dawkins genuinely repented in his last breath (i.e. no opportunity to walk in faith or grow in grace, etc.) that God would save him? I don’t think the Bible tells us very much about post Judgement Day hell, apart from its intensity & end.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  1 Corinthians 15:28 in context:

I’ll start at v20 and explain what I believe Paul is saying.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them[everyone] that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man[Adam] came death, by man[Christ] came also the resurrection of the dead.

1Co 15:22 For as in[by] {the} Adam all die, even so in[by] {the} Christ shall all be made alive.
If you have a look at the Greek, τω (“the”) is there before Adam & Christ. Also concordances show that ἐν can mean “by”/“because”, which would fit with v21. Whilst the alternative interpretation of ἐν as implying “those in” could work for 22b, it makes no sense for 22a. i.e. there isn’t a “those not in Adam”. I would suggest the that the scope of both “all”s is everyone, as everyone dies & everyone needs to be resurrected for Judgment Day (I think v29 add a little bit of support).

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end[remainder], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
A few scholars have suggested τέλος (“end”) can be translated “remainder” here to fit with the preceding verses & consummation in verse 28, however even if that’s not valid, it just means unbelievers aren’t mentioned in this verse, rather than ruling out their resurrection (i.e. an argument from silence here doesn’t outweigh other passages which affirm universal resurrection).

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
I would suggest Christ conquers His enemies by redeeming/converting them to become His friends - that certainly fits with “love your enemies” & “when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son” (Rom 5:10)

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Both by Christ overcoming it through resurrection & the ultimate undoing the result of Adam’s trespass, causing sin to cease therefore death/perishing/destruction to stop (I don’t think that can be complete whilst there is sin/perishing in hell).

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued[G5293] unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject[G5293] unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
I think we can get an indication of the meaning of the first G5293 from the second one. i.e. Christ voluntarily submits Himself to the Father, so the assumption should be that “all things” voluntarily submit to the Father.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The church is referred to as His body and being the fulness of him that filleth all believers and meaning He will be in all who have come to Him. The church is not comprised of anyone who does not belong to Jesus Christ. All who come to Him and are viewed in the Scriptures as being 'the church', do so while alive on this earth.

Sorry, I’ll admit I’m unsure exactly what v22-23 means. I would very tentatively suggest three possibilities (hopefully some more prayer/reflection will make this clearer, otherwise I might see how other Christians have interpreted it):

a) And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church (which is 1. His body, 2. the fulness of Him, that 3. filleth all in all)

b) And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church (which is 1. His body, 2. the fulness of Him {that filleth all in all})

c) And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be:
1. the head over all things to the church (which is His body)
2. the fulness of Him (that filleth all in all)

I think that there are many who are not part of the Church on earth, however I believe that all things (including all people) belong to Christ & therefore will eventually (postmortem) come into the New Jerusalem.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  I see no Scripture stating that those in hell are part of the Body of Christ, the church. That they will live and walk in victory, exuding the fruit of the Spirit and good works as God calls all believers to, but rather those who believe are called to walk a different walk than those who serve the flesh and the god of this world, walking in disobedience. That is not the life Christ calls all believers to.

I don’t think those in hell are an actualised part of the Body of Christ i.e. they are His, but have not yet repented & started living for Him (exuding the fruit of the Spirit, etc.). As 2Ti 1:9 says, “not according to our works”.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  Let's refer to some parallel verses with regard to 'put all his enemies under his feet' and the last enemy destroyed is death:

2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

hath brought life and immortality to light

G5461
φωτίζω
phōtizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to give light, to shine
2) to enlighten, light up, illumine
3) to bring to light, render evident
3a) to cause something to exist and thus come to light and become clear to all
4) to enlighten, spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge
4a) to instruct, to inform, teach
4b) to give understanding to
Part of Speech: verb

G2222
ζωή
zōē
Thayer Definition:
1) life
1a) the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate
1b) every living soul
2) life
2a) of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the hypostatic “logos” and to Christ in whom the “logos” put on human nature
2b) life real and genuine, a life active and vigorous, devoted to God, blessed, in the portion even in this world of those who put their trust in Christ, but after the resurrection to be consummated by new accessions (among them a more perfect body), and to last for ever.
Part of Speech: noun feminine

G2532
καί
kai
Thayer Definition:
1) and, also, even, indeed, but
Part of Speech: conjunction

G861
ἀφθαρσία
aphtharsia
Thayer Definition:
1) incorruption, perpetuity
2) purity, sincerity, incorrupt
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G862

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

G5286
ὑποπόδιον
hupopodion
Thayer Definition:
1) a footstool
1a) to make one a footstool of one’s feet, i.e. to subject, to reduce under one’s power
1b) metaphorically taken from the practice of conquerors who placed their feet on the necks of their conquered enemies
Part of Speech: noun neuter

sanctified
G37
ἁγιάζω
hagiazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow
2) to separate from profane things and dedicate to God
2a) consecrate things to God
2b) dedicate people to God
3) to purify
3a) to cleanse externally
3b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
3c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul
Part of Speech: verb

In other words, it is not suggesting the enemies of Christ will turn to Him in love and adoration, or those in hell will, but rather they will be subdued, destroyed or conquered that is, overcome. Hence facing the appointed fate of judgment and wrath as described in many other verses, for those who refused salvation, hence Him, while on this earth.

Sorry, I’m unsure which bit above shows that people in hell don’t turn? I also don’t see the disclaimer “while on earth”, in fact isn’t our sanctification only complete postmortem, likewise our immortality something we only see postmortem? Isn’t Heb 10, v13 & v14 linked? i.e. because of the “one offering” eventually “His enemies” will “be made His footstool”.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

So we know if we wilfully live to the flesh, and sin wilfully, deliberately not living for Christ in obedience to His call on our lives, there is no more sacrifice for those sins. We are in fact rejecting what He has done for us and what He has called us to. Therefore v27 states that the expectation will be facing judgment and wrath which shall 'devour' or consume or destroy those who are adversaries of Christ. It doesn't say maybe. It says 'shall devour the adversaries'.

Similar to the “blaspheming the Holy Spirit” passages, I think it means some won’t just be forgiven, without first experiencing the wrath of God. Unless you’re an annihilationist, I assume you qualify what it means to be devoured/consumed/destroyed? Given the mention of fire & how the image of fire is used in other passages (e.g. Isa 4:4, Mal 3:2-3, Mark 9:49) I think the consuming will be puriative/purgatorial.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  adversaries

G5227
ὑπεναντίος
hupenantios
Thayer Definition:
1) opposite to
1a) set over against: meeting one another
2) opposed to, contrary to, an adversary

So those who had known the truth became the adversaries, because they chose to not live for Christ.

I think it’s the other way around, we all start as adversaries - not living for Christ - and as the Holy Spirit works within us, we one by one, turn to Christ.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  I am going to stop here because I don't want this thread to be about EU. [/b][/color]

No probs, as this is your forum, I’m happy for you to have the last word on this thread, therefore I won’t reply to any further responses on this thread, unless you explicitly ask me to

[Vic]

Solo said

Quote:No probs, as this is your forum, I’m happy for you to have the last word on this thread, therefore I won’t reply to any further responses on this thread, unless you explicitly ask me to

The point has been to try and stay on topic. We've get several other threads going to address your universalist beliefs. It's not about having the last word unless that's what you think is important. It's about dealing with the issues in a way that doesn't get muddied with a bunch of other topics which can be dealt with in other appropriate threads. [/color]

[Vic]

Solo said

Quote:I agree context is important, however isn’t immediate context generally more important than context further out? In this case I’d suggest the immediate context is within the verse itself, as it emphasises that “all things” are not just things on earth but also things in heaven. I think the next layer out of context should be looking at the scope of “all things” in v18. Hopefully we’d agree that Christ has preeminence over everything, with the Father being the only exception? Likewise, both “all things” in v17 & both “all things” in v16 surely have the same universal scope as v18? Therefore given that “all things” is universal in the 5 occurrences in the 4 preceding verses, I think it’s fair to say the weight of context is that “all things” in v20 is also universal...

You need to quit thinking Universalism and just read the verses as someone who claims to believe Christ. The question for this thread was, "can we lose our salvation." Reflection on the whole passage in context helps to deal with the final thoughts in v23, 24...

Salvation was offered to all mankind who walk the earth, which is why Jesus walked the earth. The analysis of Colossians isn't about EU. It was written to all the saints at Colosse initially and yes, very clearly was meant for all believers to read....(think there will be any books in hell to read?) The universal scope of salvation was obvious because God sent Jesus into the world to walk with people, and in flesh presented the way of salvation to all those in the flesh.

Solo you are merely saying what I am saying regarding who the Scriptures are written to. I said it was written to the saints, all believers and that salvation was being offered to all mankind. Yes the letters were passed around, also recorded in the Scriptures about that. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death. Yes. it's all there.

Quote:You appear to strongly link v20 with the following verses, however I think Paul is switching from universal scope, back to just Christians in v21. I think the phrase “And you” (& the continued use of “you” in the following verses rather than “all things”) indicates that, which I assume is why most translations (e.g. ESV, HCSB, NIV, NKJV, NASB) have v21 as a start of a new paragraph.

No as I was showing, Paul was consistently referencing who he was writing to, the saints at Colosse, and hence all believers in application. Before and after verses are explaining what Christ has done for them/us -see v11- 14 and for all believers who become part of His Body. v15 is affirmation of who Christ is, in relation to creation and mankind and the Father.

Somehow I missed posting v15 ___ concerning Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

v19, it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell--the fulness of God is in Christ... by Him because of the cross, has the ability to reconcile all things to him, by Christ. He has the preeminence in the church being the first raised from the dead, before and of all who become part of His Body the church, aside from the preeminence He already had prior to establishing his church.

preeminence G4409
πρωτεύω
prōteuō
Thayer Definition:
1) to be first, hold the first place
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4413

AND YOU---meaning the Christians he had been writing to all along, but also by application all those who come to Christ. Referring to their past life of wickedness and sin, Paul affirmed that Christ had indeed reconciled them, because Christ died for them/us, so that He could present us holy, unblameable and unreprovable in his sight. It then continues with the warning in 23, IF they continue in the faith....there is nothing to suggest a different scope. It was all about the current believers, and then refers by application all believers, and who they were/are before being reconciled to Christ.

Quote: However, I don’t those that don’t continue are therefore permanently excluded from the possibility of having faith later.

If they repent they will be forgiven as long as they are on the earth. But many that turn back are not willing to repent but walk away from Christ and spit upon His sacrifice. Thankfully all those things are in God's hands, and we are merely called to repentance and obedience to living for Christ.

Quote:Assuming everyone has been given the opportunity before they die have, doesn’t mean one’s initial decision is permanently binding. e.g the Prodigal Son’s initial negative decision didn’t indicate a final negative destination. I don’t think God created anyone who would “never desire to know Him”. I agree God will sort it all out - perfectly - (I don’t view anything in hell as yet “perfect”).

Many people hear the gospel many times before accepting Christ. The Holy Spirit softens their hearts so they can receive understanding and the Truth of Christ. It's not unusual for it to take years. The prodigal son is a prime example of walking away and then realising what he was missing out, hence the desire to repent. Many take that passage to refer to Israel. I think it can apply to anyone. The issue is all are called to repent while walking the earth and being called by God.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Quote:Whilst I agree the Bible does encourage fruitfulness/growth/learning, I think all these are in response to God’s forgiveness, not a way to earn salvation. Do you think that if Dawkins genuinely repented in his last breath (i.e. no opportunity to walk in faith or grow in grace, etc.) that God would save him? I don’t think the Bible tells us very much about post Judgement Day hell, apart from its intensity & end.

No we can't earn salvation, it is the gift of God. But we are not called to sit and merely bask in the idea of future things. Matthew 25 , James and others say why. Jesus himself said to pick up our cross daily or we aren't worthy of Him, and He called us to bear fruit, rooted and built up in Him and doing according to His calling on our lives. Every person who repents will receive salvation, and yes deathbed repentence counts. But Hebrews also talks about even if all works done are burnt up, the person shall be saved....if they belong to Christ. And we know repentance means God will remember our sins no more....unless you believe that God won't forgive someone that waited until they were going to die before they believed... And we have the thief on the cross as an example of one who believed Christ and never had a chance to live for Him, but his witness stands for all, and Jesus said,

Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Quote:1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them[everyone] that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man[Adam] came death, by man[Christ] came also the resurrection of the dead.

1Co 15:22 For as in[by] {the} Adam all die, even so in[by] {the} Christ shall all be made alive.

If you have a look at the Greek, τω (“the”) is there before Adam & Christ. Also concordances show that ἐν can mean “by”/“because”, which would fit with v21. Whilst the alternative interpretation of ἐν as implying “those in” could work for 22b, it makes no sense for 22a. i.e. there isn’t a “those not in Adam”. I would suggest the that the scope of both “all”s is everyone, as everyone dies & everyone needs to be resurrected for Judgment Day (I think v29 add a little bit of support).

Let me just say, that all die in sin because the Scriptures tell us all do because of Adam's sin. All who belong to Jesus Christ shall be made alive---must take all scriptures relating to this into account. Dying is meaning the people are alive physically in order to die physically. That's why Jesus showed he conquered death, the firstfruit of the dead who rose.

Quote:1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end[remainder], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
A few scholars have suggested τέλος (“end”) can be translated “remainder” here to fit with the preceding verses & consummation in verse 28, however even if that’s not valid, it just means unbelievers aren’t mentioned in this verse, rather than ruling out their resurrection (i.e. an argument from silence here doesn’t outweigh other passages which affirm universal resurrection).

What!!????? excuse me but that's gobbeldy gook. Your scholars can give their head a good shake. The end is referring to the end of the appointed time when Christ will have delivered up His kingdom to God. His kingdom is comprised of those who belong to Jesus Christ, who have repented and known Him while on this earth.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Psa 145:10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.
Psa 145:11 They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy power;
Psa 145:12 To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.
Psa 145:13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

Quote:1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
I would suggest Christ conquers His enemies by redeeming/converting them to become His friends - that certainly fits with “love your enemies” & “when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son” (Rom 5:10)

And I would suggest you need to step back from your EU leanings and start simply applying the Scriptures. We---those who believe Jesus Christ are reconciled to God through Christ....we have to make that conscious belief while we are alive on this earth. The wrath of God is promised throughout Scriptures on those who hate him, reject HIm and make war on those who belong to Him. The very essence of the Scriptures reveals those truths. Vengeance is His, He will repay....and Jesus said very clearly,

Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Mar 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
Mar 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: ...
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 [ For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Quote:1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Both by Christ overcoming it through resurrection & the ultimate undoing the result of Adam’s trespass, causing sin to cease therefore death/perishing/destruction to stop (I don’t think that can be complete whilst there is sin/perishing in hell).

Death is referring to the physical death we go through, even though spiritually we are reconciled, our bodies still die. If you continue on in the chapter, it says:

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Quote:I think that there are many who are not part of the Church on earth, however I believe that all things (including all people) belong to Christ & therefore will eventually (postmortem) come into the New Jerusalem.

Quote:I don’t think those in hell are an actualised part of the Body of Christ i.e. they are His, but have not yet repented & started living for Him (exuding the fruit of the Spirit, etc.). As 2Ti 1:9 says, “not according to our works”.

Well consdering those in hell have rejected Christ, they can't be part of the Body of Christ, the church. They can't have the fruit of the Spirit or live for Him, and you have provided zero scriptures supporting the idea. There is no scripture that says those in hell will repent and be turned into saints....none. You can do all the word gymnastics you want but there is nothing that states that.

Jesus Himself made the distinction of those who belong to Him and those who do not. You are overturning many Scriptures, and quite frankly it almost sounds like you believe all people already belong to Christ, so it's just a matter of time --after they get tormented awhile then they will remember they belong to Him. I see absolutely no Scripture to support any of that. None. And on this thread we won't pursue it further. It goes into the Universalism thread.

[mjmselim]

Just reading and passing on. The Lord's words and judgment in John 5 came to mind:
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth Him all things that Himself doeth: and He will shew Him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:Joh 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father Which hath sent Him.Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in Himself;Joh 5:27 And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

[Vic]

(07-13-2012 11:04 PM)mjmselim Wrote:  Just reading and passing on. The Lord's words and judgment in John 5 came to mind:
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth Him all things that Himself doeth: and He will shew Him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:Joh 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father Which hath sent Him.Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in Himself;Joh 5:27 And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Exactly right.

[Mary]

(07-14-2012 10:36 AM)Vic Wrote:  

(07-13-2012 11:04 PM)mjmselim Wrote:  Just reading and passing on. The Lord's words and judgment in John 5 came to mind:
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth Him all things that Himself doeth: and He will shew Him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:Joh 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father Which hath sent Him.Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in Himself;Joh 5:27 And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Exactly right.

It is a bit confusing though. I believe that I will "pass from death to life and be eternally with Jesus; so does this verse, and what I think are related verses in Revelation 2, 20 and 21 about the "second death;" mean that unbelievers will be in hell twice? or is there a period of time for unbelievers in which they are 'just dead /sleeping?' If so, is this " the grave" or what I think the Bible also refers to as Sheol?

What then are the implications of these verses

Psalm 139: vs 7-8
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

and

Romans 8: vs 38 - 39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

do these verses suggest that believers will also be in the "grave/sleeping until the 'first resurrection?'