Can we lose Salvation?

[sheep wrecked]

(05-14-2009 04:57 AM)Strefanash Wrote:  I agree with you, sheepwrecked, it seems.

Why would he tell christians to abide in Him if by mere virtue of being born again we already did? I hold that abiding in christ is not the same as merely being a born again believer. If we do not abide eventually we backslide beyond his reach when in our sin we are so hardened that we refuse to hear his spirit prompting us. And if christians only ever heard and obeyed His voice why bother with the exhortation "today if you hear not His voice harden not your heart" to those who retort that this is the epistle to the Hebrews I wil cite Paul to others: "quench not the Spirit".

John chap 15 is here a clear reminder of the peril of falling away. We might hold to sound doctrine and be in good standing withour church, we may efven be missionaries, but if we have ceased our relationship with teh living Person who is Jesus Christ we have fallen away and if this fallenness away is so advanced that the person cannot and will not hear the Holy Spirit then he is lost to perdition for he has blasphemed the Spirit.

The remedy is not frantic legalism but abiding with him, ie staying with him, and this in personal relationship.

If we hood false defionitions of what christians are and what christians do we come to the ludicrous position that in his letters St Paul only every praiuseed the christians in the church he was writing to and all his criticisms were to the non christians in these churches, so the man having sex with his step mother was not a christian, nor those wjo got drunk in communion, etc etc etc.

This is clearly ridiculous.

Another passage: If by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh you will live.

and if we dont? clearly we will die. this is not a legalistic burden, it is to stay with him and continue in the relationship whereby His Holy Spirit leads us to repentance as a free gift. it is a synonym for John 15.

To say that denying once saved always saved is to turn salvation into works is to totally misunderstand salvation and grace. THus it is a straw man. Grace is a process whereby God as a process over years acts in our lives. If we stop this process and refuse his divine persuasion whereby his goodness leads us to repentance we will fall finally to loss and be condemned and damned

I would agree that the NT clearly shows that one must make a choice to stay devoted to the Lord. There are so many warnings in all the epistles that we can easily fall away if we don't continue seeking the Lord with all our hearts. We are human, the flesh is constantly at war with our hearts. Loving God is no different than loving a person in your life. It takes work, devotion, commitment, and relationship - without which, love will die.

Your post reminds me of the Parable of the Sower, which I think clearly points out those who accept Christ, but then fall away. Jesus also stated that believers would fall away from the faith.

Mar 4:3 Listen; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
Mar 4:4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
Mar 4:5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
Mar 4:6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
Mar 4:7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
Mar 4:8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.
Mar 4:9 And he said to them, He that has ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
Mar 4:11 And he said to them, To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but to them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Mar 4:13 And he said to them, Know you not this parable? and how then will you know all parables?
Mar 4:14 The sower sows the word.
Mar 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan comes immediately, and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Mar 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution rises for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
Mar 4:18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
Mar 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Mar 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirty times, some sixty, and some an hundred.

Jesus gives us two examples of believers who accept the Word - the Gospel > Jesus is the Word. Both of these examples fall away from the faith, while the third continues in it and brings forth fruit. Exactly what Jesus pointed to in John 15 with the Vine teaching.


Luke defines it even more clearly:

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.