Can we lose Salvation?

[Solo Christo]

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  Let's take Colossians 1:20 in context.

I agree context is important, however isn’t immediate context generally more important than context further out? In this case I’d suggest the immediate context is within the verse itself, as it emphasises that “all things” are not just things on earth but also things in heaven. I think the next layer out of context should be looking at the scope of “all things” in v18. Hopefully we’d agree that Christ has preeminence over everything, with the Father being the only exception? Likewise, both “all things” in v17 & both “all things” in v16 surely have the same universal scope as v18? Therefore given that “all things” is universal in the 5 occurrences in the 4 preceding verses, I think it’s fair to say the weight of context is that “all things” in v20 is also universal...

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
Col 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
Col 1:5 [b]For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: ...

Who is being addressed. The saints and faithful in Christ Jesus. IN others words those alive in Christ and determined to live for Him. They heard the 'word of truth' and received and obeyed it and were living for Christ, acknowledging the hope awaiting them in heaven, that of eternal life that is being with Him forever. The word of truth of the gospel came to them as it also was in 'all the world', meaning all mankind was being given opportunity to know Christ and receive salvation from the time Christ died and rose and brought in the New Covenant.

I agree the letter was initially written to the Colossian Christians, however the NT shows us that the letters were “passed around”, & that set a precedent (i.e. that’s why we still read/apply the Bible them today). Furthermore, the letters often address people outside the scope of the introduction of the letter (e.g. the letter to the Romans addresses the universal sinfulness of humanity, which is why we often use it in evangelism).

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

So Paul was admonishing and encouraging the saints--those who belong to Jesus Christ---as they sojourn on the earth, alive in the flesh, to walk worthy of the Lord, to be fruitful and increase in knowledge of God. All those in Christ are strengthened by His glorious power to endure with patience, longsuffering and joyfulness, and giving thanks to the Father who has made us--believers--- partakers of the inheritance of the saints. And who are the saints. Those who receive and live for Jesus Christ while on this earth. Because He has delivered us from the power of darkness into the kingdom of Christ, and through Him have redemption, that is, forgiveness of sins. Nothing more can be read into those statements as to who is being addressed and the end result.

I agree, so far he’s focusing on the saints.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who {meaning Jesus} is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, **which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven;** whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Still referring to the work of Christ, that, just as is stated in John 1, by Him and through Him are all things created for Him. And Christ is the head of the body which is the church,-comprised of believers- being the firstborn from the dead, showing He has the power over life and death. He can reconcile all things to Himself, indicating those who believe, that is the saints, who were previously alienated by wicked works and thoughts, as noted above, Paul is referring to the saints at Colosse, but were now reconciled to God by Christ, through his death; who is able to present them/believers holy and unblameable and unreprovable in his sight, and Paul admonishes those affirmations with v23 by saying to the saints, IF you continue in the faith, grounded and settled and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which they had heard and which had/has been preached to every creature which is under heaven.

You appear to strongly link v20 with the following verses, however I think Paul is switching from universal scope, back to just Christians in v21. I think the phrase “And you” (& the continued use of “you” in the following verses rather than “all things”) indicates that, which I assume is why most translations (e.g. ESV, HCSB, NIV, NKJV, NASB) have v21 as a start of a new paragraph.

I agree with you that the role of Christ in creating “all things” is also established in other passages (e.g. Rom 11:36). Likewise I agree Christ overcoming death, undoing Adam’s trespass & therefore resulting in everyone’s resurrection, is strong concept in the NT.

I agree that continuing in faith is necessary, something we all need the Holy Spirit’s help with. However, I don’t those that don’t continue are therefore permanently excluded from the possibility of having faith later.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  IN other words, all humanity on earth will have been given opportunity to hear the Gospel of Christ being the only way, salvation and the need of repentance in order to know God.

I agree.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  All those reconciled in Christ while on this earth, are the ones being referenced in this passage.

I agree if by “this passage” you mean v21-24.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  There is nothing suggesting any will not have been given opportunity to know Him before they die, because all those who have/are denying Him are making a decision to deny Him in the past and now, and God knows who would never desire to know Him. All those issues are God's issues, and He will indeed sort it all out because His judgments are perfect. It does not intimate that it is in reference to those who have been sent to hell, but rather those who are alive on the earth, are or have been given that opportunity.

Assuming everyone has been given the opportunity before they die have, doesn’t mean one’s initial decision is permanently binding. e.g the Prodigal Son’s initial negative decision didn’t indicate a final negative destination. I don’t think God created anyone who would “never desire to know Him”. I agree God will sort it all out - perfectly - (I don’t view anything in hell as yet “perfect”).

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  Quite frankly those in hell aren't going to be fruitful, aren't going to be walking by faith and growing in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. They are not going to learn to run the race with patient endurance, and enduring persecution with longsuffering, joy and peace. That is not what unbelievers are appointed to. There is no Scripture that says they are going to live in victory in hell nor does it say they will be rooted and built up in Him, keeping His Word, being soldiers of the cross and so on.

Whilst I agree the Bible does encourage fruitfulness/growth/learning, I think all these are in response to God’s forgiveness, not a way to earn salvation. Do you think that if Dawkins genuinely repented in his last breath (i.e. no opportunity to walk in faith or grow in grace, etc.) that God would save him? I don’t think the Bible tells us very much about post Judgement Day hell, apart from its intensity & end.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  1 Corinthians 15:28 in context:

I’ll start at v20 and explain what I believe Paul is saying.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them[everyone] that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man[Adam] came death, by man[Christ] came also the resurrection of the dead.

1Co 15:22 For as in[by] {the} Adam all die, even so in[by] {the} Christ shall all be made alive.
If you have a look at the Greek, τω (“the”) is there before Adam & Christ. Also concordances show that ἐν can mean “by”/“because”, which would fit with v21. Whilst the alternative interpretation of ἐν as implying “those in” could work for 22b, it makes no sense for 22a. i.e. there isn’t a “those not in Adam”. I would suggest the that the scope of both “all”s is everyone, as everyone dies & everyone needs to be resurrected for Judgment Day (I think v29 add a little bit of support).

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end[remainder], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
A few scholars have suggested τέλος (“end”) can be translated “remainder” here to fit with the preceding verses & consummation in verse 28, however even if that’s not valid, it just means unbelievers aren’t mentioned in this verse, rather than ruling out their resurrection (i.e. an argument from silence here doesn’t outweigh other passages which affirm universal resurrection).

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
I would suggest Christ conquers His enemies by redeeming/converting them to become His friends - that certainly fits with “love your enemies” & “when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son” (Rom 5:10)

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Both by Christ overcoming it through resurrection & the ultimate undoing the result of Adam’s trespass, causing sin to cease therefore death/perishing/destruction to stop (I don’t think that can be complete whilst there is sin/perishing in hell).

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued[G5293] unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject[G5293] unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
I think we can get an indication of the meaning of the first G5293 from the second one. i.e. Christ voluntarily submits Himself to the Father, so the assumption should be that “all things” voluntarily submit to the Father.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The church is referred to as His body and being the fulness of him that filleth all believers and meaning He will be in all who have come to Him. The church is not comprised of anyone who does not belong to Jesus Christ. All who come to Him and are viewed in the Scriptures as being 'the church', do so while alive on this earth.

Sorry, I’ll admit I’m unsure exactly what v22-23 means. I would very tentatively suggest three possibilities (hopefully some more prayer/reflection will make this clearer, otherwise I might see how other Christians have interpreted it):

a) And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church (which is 1. His body, 2. the fulness of Him, that 3. filleth all in all)

b) And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church (which is 1. His body, 2. the fulness of Him {that filleth all in all})

c) And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be:
1. the head over all things to the church (which is His body)
2. the fulness of Him (that filleth all in all)

I think that there are many who are not part of the Church on earth, however I believe that all things (including all people) belong to Christ & therefore will eventually (postmortem) come into the New Jerusalem.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  I see no Scripture stating that those in hell are part of the Body of Christ, the church. That they will live and walk in victory, exuding the fruit of the Spirit and good works as God calls all believers to, but rather those who believe are called to walk a different walk than those who serve the flesh and the god of this world, walking in disobedience. That is not the life Christ calls all believers to.

I don’t think those in hell are an actualised part of the Body of Christ i.e. they are His, but have not yet repented & started living for Him (exuding the fruit of the Spirit, etc.). As 2Ti 1:9 says, “not according to our works”.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  Let's refer to some parallel verses with regard to 'put all his enemies under his feet' and the last enemy destroyed is death:

2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

hath brought life and immortality to light

G5461
φωτίζω
phōtizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to give light, to shine
2) to enlighten, light up, illumine
3) to bring to light, render evident
3a) to cause something to exist and thus come to light and become clear to all
4) to enlighten, spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge
4a) to instruct, to inform, teach
4b) to give understanding to
Part of Speech: verb

G2222
ζωή
zōē
Thayer Definition:
1) life
1a) the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate
1b) every living soul
2) life
2a) of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the hypostatic “logos” and to Christ in whom the “logos” put on human nature
2b) life real and genuine, a life active and vigorous, devoted to God, blessed, in the portion even in this world of those who put their trust in Christ, but after the resurrection to be consummated by new accessions (among them a more perfect body), and to last for ever.
Part of Speech: noun feminine

G2532
καί
kai
Thayer Definition:
1) and, also, even, indeed, but
Part of Speech: conjunction

G861
ἀφθαρσία
aphtharsia
Thayer Definition:
1) incorruption, perpetuity
2) purity, sincerity, incorrupt
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G862

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

G5286
ὑποπόδιον
hupopodion
Thayer Definition:
1) a footstool
1a) to make one a footstool of one’s feet, i.e. to subject, to reduce under one’s power
1b) metaphorically taken from the practice of conquerors who placed their feet on the necks of their conquered enemies
Part of Speech: noun neuter

sanctified
G37
ἁγιάζω
hagiazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow
2) to separate from profane things and dedicate to God
2a) consecrate things to God
2b) dedicate people to God
3) to purify
3a) to cleanse externally
3b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
3c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul
Part of Speech: verb

In other words, it is not suggesting the enemies of Christ will turn to Him in love and adoration, or those in hell will, but rather they will be subdued, destroyed or conquered that is, overcome. Hence facing the appointed fate of judgment and wrath as described in many other verses, for those who refused salvation, hence Him, while on this earth.

Sorry, I’m unsure which bit above shows that people in hell don’t turn? I also don’t see the disclaimer “while on earth”, in fact isn’t our sanctification only complete postmortem, likewise our immortality something we only see postmortem? Isn’t Heb 10, v13 & v14 linked? i.e. because of the “one offering” eventually “His enemies” will “be made His footstool”.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

So we know if we wilfully live to the flesh, and sin wilfully, deliberately not living for Christ in obedience to His call on our lives, there is no more sacrifice for those sins. We are in fact rejecting what He has done for us and what He has called us to. Therefore v27 states that the expectation will be facing judgment and wrath which shall 'devour' or consume or destroy those who are adversaries of Christ. It doesn't say maybe. It says 'shall devour the adversaries'.

Similar to the “blaspheming the Holy Spirit” passages, I think it means some won’t just be forgiven, without first experiencing the wrath of God. Unless you’re an annihilationist, I assume you qualify what it means to be devoured/consumed/destroyed? Given the mention of fire & how the image of fire is used in other passages (e.g. Isa 4:4, Mal 3:2-3, Mark 9:49) I think the consuming will be puriative/purgatorial.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  adversaries

G5227
ὑπεναντίος
hupenantios
Thayer Definition:
1) opposite to
1a) set over against: meeting one another
2) opposed to, contrary to, an adversary

So those who had known the truth became the adversaries, because they chose to not live for Christ.

I think it’s the other way around, we all start as adversaries - not living for Christ - and as the Holy Spirit works within us, we one by one, turn to Christ.

(07-11-2012 06:26 PM)Vic Wrote:  I am going to stop here because I don't want this thread to be about EU. [/b][/color]

No probs, as this is your forum, I’m happy for you to have the last word on this thread, therefore I won’t reply to any further responses on this thread, unless you explicitly ask me to