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***Vic*** · 03-29-2009, 05:50 PM

(03-29-2009 05:34 PM)LindaR Wrote: I met Moishe Rosen back in the mid 70s when I was living in Colorado. The MJ/HRM does not like him for some reason. At one time, J4J was very conservative but now have become pretty ecumenical, IMO.

J4J isn't the only group who uses the Star of David as their logo. I have heard that the Star of David has occultic origins. The Israeli flag also uses the Star of David. Where does one begin to look for information on the origins of the Star of David? Or should I start another thread on the origins of the Star of David?

One of the articles on J4J website that I read awhile ago, was that they admit that having a Jewish appearance or Messianic congregation does not evangelise to the Jews. Some like to suggest that is why they do all the look and traditions, but it is not. It is actually more self serving for some who want traditions. The articles stated that the vast majority of those Jews who come to Christ are brought to Him with one on one dialogue, not through a messianic congregation. The only thing the Messianic congregation might do is help a former practicing Jew transition from Judaism.

It does however cause people to hang onto those things as well as promote adherence to them. J4J also do the hannukah thing, at least in their old newsletters. And I recall when I first wrote about the involvement of HR in Talmud and kabbalah, they were not too kind about that. They have since updated some of their views. I've dialogued with Moshe Rosen, and he has encouraged me with the website. I don't think what is there now is how he started.

Concerning the Star of David. While it has become the symbol for many, for Israel the 7 candle Menorrah was the national symbol.
As far as starting a thread for it, that would be fine. For information...I suppose I could come up with a link or two from my research on HR. Mrblue

~~LindaR~~ · 03-29-2009, 08:54 PM

Vic Wrote:One of the articles on J4J website that I read awhile ago, was that they admit that having a Jewish appearance or Messianic congregation does not evangelise to the Jews. Some like to suggest that is why they do all the look and traditions, but it is not. It is actually more self serving for some who want traditions. The articles stated that the vast majority of those Jews who come to Christ are brought to Him with one on one dialogue, not through a messianic congregation. The only thing the Messianic congregation might do is help a former practicing Jew transition from Judaism.

It does however cause people to hang onto those things as well as promote adherence to them. J4J also do the hannukah thing, at least in their old newsletters. And I recall when I first wrote about the involvement of HR in Talmud and kabbalah, they were not too kind about that. They have since updated some of their views. I've dialogued with Moshe Rosen, and he has encouraged me with the website. I don't think what is there now is how he started.

Concerning the Star of David. While it has become the symbol for many, for Israel the 7 candle Menorrah was the national symbol.
As far as starting a thread for it, that would be fine. For information...I suppose I could come up with a link or two from my research on HR.

I came to Christ through the witness of a born again Gentile lady, not through a Messianic congregation. Messianic Judaism as a movement was small in 1974 and there were very few congregations...and none in Denver at that time. There was a Hebrew Christian fellowship in Denver called Beth Sar Shalom and the leader of that fellowship had Friday night meetings at his home. I lived 50 miles away from Denver, so the lady who led me to Christ, called this man (he was also a missionary with the Board of Missions to the Jews..now called The Chosen People Ministries). This man literally grilled this lady on the phone to "make sure she didn't 'gentilize' me! After a few years, the fellowship disbanded and a Messianic congregation was started in its place and I went there for almost 10 years. The congregation didn't do much as far as "evangelizing" Jews...they were more interested in "Judaizing" Gentile converts. So I agree, most Jews are brought to Christ OUTSIDE of the boundaries of the Messianic congregation.

I think I will start a thread on the origins of the Star of David. I wonder why the 7 branch menorah isn't on the Israeli flag instead of the Star of David?

ralliann · 03-29-2009, 10:21 PM

(03-29-2009 08:54 PM)LindaR Wrote:
Vic Wrote:One of the articles on J4J website that I read awhile ago, was that they admit that having a Jewish appearance or Messianic congregation does not evangelise to the Jews. Some like to suggest that is why they do all the look and traditions, but it is not. It is actually more self serving for some who want traditions. The articles stated that the vast majority of those Jews who come to Christ are brought to Him with one on one dialogue, not through a messianic congregation. The only thing the Messianic congregation might do is help a former practicing Jew transition from Judaism.

It does however cause people to hang onto those things as well as promote adherence to them. J4J also do the hannukah thing, at least in their old newsletters. And I recall when I first wrote about the involvement of HR in Talmud and kabbalah, they were not too kind about that. They have since updated some of their views. I've dialogued with Moshe Rosen, and he has encouraged me with the website. I don't think what is there now is how he started.

Concerning the Star of David. While it has become the symbol for many, for Israel the 7 candle Menorrah was the national symbol.
As far as starting a thread for it, that would be fine. For information...I suppose I could come up with a link or two from my research on HR.
I came to Christ through the witness of a born again Gentile lady, not through a Messianic congregation. Messianic Judaism as a movement was small in 1974 and there were very few congregations...and none in Denver at that time. There was a Hebrew Christian fellowship in Denver called Beth Sar Shalom and the leader of that fellowship had Friday night meetings at his home. I lived 50 miles away from Denver, so the lady who led me to Christ, called this man (he was also a missionary with the Board of Missions to the Jews..now called The Chosen People Ministries). This man literally grilled this lady on the phone to "make sure she didn't 'gentilize' me! After a few years, the fellowship disbanded and a Messianic congregation was started in its place and I went there for almost 10 years. The congregation didn't do much as far as "evangelizing" Jews...they were more interested in "Judaizing" Gentile converts. So I agree, most Jews are brought to Christ OUTSIDE of the boundaries of the Messianic congregation.

I think I will start a thread on the origins of the Star of David. I wonder why the 7 branch menorah isn't on the Israeli flag instead of the Star of David?

Does anyone know where to get statistics on messianic Judaism? Do we know how many Jews vs Gentiles? How many Jews and Gentiles that were not Christian, BEFORE, becoming Messianic?

~~LindaR~~ · 03-29-2009, 10:34 PM

ralliann Wrote:Does anyone know where to get statistics on messianic Judaism? Do we know how many Jews vs Gentiles? How many Jews and Gentiles that were not Christian, BEFORE, becoming Messianic?

A good place to start is probably on the Messianic sites, then expand the search to Church sites or try Fundamentalist sites...or google "Messianic Judaism Movement statistics" :anyone:

***Vic*** · 03-30-2009, 10:53 AM

Actually Moshe Rosen gave some after I pointed him to a paricular forum.

The following analysis of the Messianic movement was recently posted to a Messianic forum, again in August 2003, and was confirmed as accurate by Moishe Rosen, founder of Jews for Jesus.

Quote ... Comprised of Jews and Gentiles into one body who desire to have a Messianic lifestyle (basically observing the commandments with the emphasis that Yeshua is Messiah).
Within Messianic Judaism:
1. Oneness
2. Trinitarian
3. Charasmatic
4. Non-Charasmatic
5. Ultra Charasmatic
6. Leaning towards Talmud expression
7. Developing own Halachah

Fringe Messianic groups:
1. Sacred Name
2. Two-House

From> The Spreading Hebrew Roots. http://www.SeekGod.ca/spreadingroots.htm

I believe I have it somewhere that it was over 70 % Gentile, or higher-possibly 90%--will try and find it. I also have the stats on roughly how many Jewish people are Christians world wide--but will have to look for it.

~~sagebrush~~ · 05-02-2009, 11:29 PM

In Search of the Lord’s Supper

Somewhere between the Old Testament ordinance of Passover and the post-Biblical practice known as Communion can be found God’s thought on the Lord’s Supper. But, many will respond, “Isn’t that what Communion is all about?” Men with good intentions may have intended the traditional practice of Communion to honor the Lord’s Supper, however, God’s purpose for the Lord’s Supper may not have been intended to be expressed in our traditional practice of Communion. This in no way suggests that those who faithfully participate in this common practice, as have many generations, have not been able to give legitimate and acceptable honor to the Lord.

Rather, because we desire to honor Him, we seek a fuller and more accurate understanding concerning His Mind and Heart. In so doing, we honor Him in a greater way as we express His glory according to His thought, and not our own. This in turn brings God the greater glory, and this should always serve as the motivation of any quest. Having this in mind, let us begin that quest. The seed of the Lord’s Supper springs forth out of the first Passover instituted by God and recorded in Exodus 12.

We must keep in mind that God’s end is always present in His beginnings, and therefore, we can expect to find all of the essential elements present. First of all, it is referred to as the Lord’s Passover. Now, beyond the more familiar element of the application of the blood upon the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses, notice it does not say the Israelites’ Passover.

It is the Lord’s Passover (v. 11), meaning that as Lord of all, this ordinance was ultimately intended for the participation of all those, who by blood atonement, would become partakers of the commonwealth of Israel. It was not intended to be forever contained within the exclusive domain of the Israelites. In fact, God, through the Passover, began to reveal His provision for foreigners who desired to join themselves with the House of Israel. (V. 43-49).

Only those who willfully submitted to circumcision were eligible to be partakers along with the Israelites; otherwise, they were forbidden to participate. The fulfillment of this thought would be revealed centuries later in Eph. 2:11-22, whereby, having been circumcised in heart through Christ, the dividing wall would be broken down, with the two groups being fused into one new man. And it was intended to be celebrated as a permanent ordinance as a memorial unto the Lord (v. 14), or in other words, as often as they did, they did it in remembrance of the Lord.

Therefore, it was a solemn duty for the Passover Story to be told to each succeeding generation so that it would not only be perpetuated, but that it would be approached with the proper understanding and reverence. It is not coincidental then, that King Hezekiah and King Josiah commanded Israel to celebrate the Passover to the Lord as a tangible fruit of repentance and revival in the land (II Chron. 30 and 35).

Another important aspect of the Passover was that it involved a roasted lamb to be eaten within each household. In any language and culture, this was to be a significant meal. Moreover, it was to be eaten along with unleavened bread and bitter herbs (v. 8). It was a feast which involved the breaking of bread and fellowship amidst an attitude of great joy and humble appreciation of God’s faithfulness, tempered with an overwhelming sense of the holiness and awesomeness of God. Decency and order were inherent to the occasion, as we will explore in greater detail later on in our discussion.

Now, when applying New Testament revelation to the Old Testament, among other things, we must be mindful of Christ’s statement, “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law and the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.” There is no question that the curse of the Law was once and for all nailed to the Cross. However, we must also beware of well-intended New Testament zeal which indiscriminately divorces itself from any and all Old Testament statutes and ordinances. Some have, in fact, been abolished as a direct result of fulfillment, while others have truly been enhanced by virtue of the Holy Spirit’s work in providing a greater revelation as to their significance in light of God’s purposes.

As Jesus shared the principle concerning the “tares and the wheat,” so too are we challenged to be more discerning as to what does and does not apply, as well as how things should be applied. God exhorted Jeremiah to “extract the precious from the worthless.” We must be careful then, “not to throw the baby out with the bath water,” but as Paul admonished, “to examine everything carefully.” With these things in view, let us now turn to Jesus as He celebrated His “Last Supper” with his disciples.

And He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer: for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the Kingdom of God.” This heartfelt statement reveals several things concerning Jesus’ thought as He approached this feast. First, he expressed a real passion toward participating with His disciples in the meal. It was extremely meaningful to the Lord because now, for the first time, His presence, life, ministry, and death, would finally bring fulfillment to the feast initiated from the time of Moses. Preceding generations who had celebrated the symbolism in the shadows by faith would now be able to approach the Passover Feast in the light and revelation of the fulfillment brought about by Christ.

It was also meaningful because in the human sense, it would be a very long time before He would partake of this special meal again. Therefore, it was equally meaningful for Him to partake of the meal with those closest and dearest to Himself. It meant everything to the Lord and it should be quite clear that His intent was not to abolish this feast, but to fulfill and enhance it with new life and greater revelation, for the purpose of perpetuating His memory. This was to be a legacy to all succeeding generations until His return to reign over all the earth.

And while they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” Clearly, Jesus and the disciples were in the midst of partaking in a meal, the prescribed Passover meal as the phrase would indicate, while they were eating. The bread Jesus took, broke, and gave to His disciples was not just everyday bread, but unleavened bread. “And in the same way. He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.” This was not just any cup of wine, but what had probably by this time in Jewish custom had come to be known as the “fourth cup” of the Passover Seder (order).

This is significant in that you have in sequential order the Passover meal: “The Cup of Sanctification,” “The Cup of Judgment,” “The Cup of Salvation,” and “The Cup of the Covenant.” The “fourth cup” would no longer commemorate the Old Covenant. But as Jesus described, “the new covenant in My blood.” The use of the bread and the wine had for generations been an integral part of the Passover meal. They did not suddenly become something newly instituted to be added to the Passover, nor to supplant that which had come to be normal practice during the traditional Passover meal.

Neither were they to be extracted and implemented outside of the Biblical context of Passover. What was new and what was added was the revelation and fulfillment brought about in Jesus of these symbolic elements inherent to the Passover Feast. From this time forth, Passover celebrations could no longer be properly carried out apart from the recognition of Jesus as the fulfillment of the feast. By the same token, neither was the fulfillment ever intended to become a separate practice ripped out from their Biblical Jewish roots. Is there evidence of such claims found within the recorded history of the first century Church, and within an increasingly predominant Gentile Church at that? Let us take a look.

In his first letter to the Church at Corinth, Paul reveals even deeper insight as to the significance of the Passover, otherwise referred to as the Lord’s Supper. It is important then to recognize a key influence fundamental to the foundation of this Church. First, Paul was a Jew, as were most of the workers who assisted in establishing the Church there; namely, Aquila and Priscilla, along with Silas and Timothy. It is also mentioned that a Jew named Crispus became one of the first believers there. Paul himself remained in Corinth for a year and a half, and no doubt they all brought their Biblical Jewishness with them.

Since we know Paul was there for that length of time, as well as the others at other various lengths, we can be assured that at least two Passovers occurred during his initial stay there. As we read the letter to the Corinthians, we see Paul making numerous references to Old Testament passages and symbolism. It should be apparent that Paul would not have spoken in these terms had not the believers in Corinth been sufficiently familiar with them.

This letter primarily focuses on the perils of ignored sin in the Church, the sanctity and attributes of a healthy and maturing Church, and the meaning of Christ as her head. In dealing with sin in their midst, Paul expresses himself in this way, “Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? Clean out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sanctified. Let us therefore celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth” (I Cor. 5b-8).

Paul is undoubtedly using terms derived from Passover in driving home his point, but he is also taking the application to a deeper level. The terms take on a new meaning as they are now used to describe Christ, and the Church as His Body. Paul also makes the following statement which might come as a surprise to some: “Let us therefore celebrate the feast...” What feast? The Passover feast, of course. But, this is a predominantly Gentile Church at this time, yet, Paul is exhorting them to celebrate Passover. Why? Because as part of the commonwealth of Israel, they were now privileged to be fellow-partakers of a common heritage as was first glimpsed back in Exodus 12. “The same law shall apply to the native as well as to the stranger who sojourns among you.”

In Chapter 10:16 we read, “Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ?” What cup? The “fourth cup” of the Passover; the cup representing the blood of the new covenant. “Is not the bread which we break a sharing of the body of Christ?” What bread? The unleavened bread used at Passover representing the Body of Christ. “Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread” (v. 17).

Paul is revealing to the Corinthians that we have an even more intimate relationship to Christ than as His Church, but recognizing that we are truly His very Body here on earth. His Body and the corporate Body are one and the same. This in turn should provide a far reaching influence on our thinking since, as a man thinks in his heart, so is he. Paul knew that having a right understanding of whom we are in Christ had a direct impact on our conduct within and without the Church.

In Chapter 11:2, Paul says, Now I praise you because you remember me in everything, and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. Yes, Paul said, “traditions.” Not all traditions nullify the Word of God, as Jesus expressed it. We must also be able to discern between the traditions of man as opposed to the traditions of God. In verses 17-34, when read in its proper context, it is apparent that the Corinthians were attempting to celebrate the Lord’s Supper or Passover Seder. Remember, the word “Seder” means “order,” and the way the Church was approaching the feast was anything but in order. They were, in fact, quite out of order.

That is why Paul reproved them by saying, “Therefore when you meet together, it is not the Lord’s Supper (You may think it is, but you are fooling yourselves), for in your eating one takes his own supper first. One is hungry and another drunk...” This is what Paul was referring to when partaking of the Lord’s Supper “in an unworthy manner.” The entire passage deals with how the believers were treating one another in the Church, tangibly and practically; not in some mystical, invisible way. As the Body of Christ, they were not “judging the Body (themselves) rightly.”

Paul goes on to say, “For as often as you eat this bread . . . ” What bread? The unleavened bread. “And as often as you drink this cup . . . ” What cup? The Cup of the new covenant, “you proclaim the Lord’s death until. He comes.” And how often? Well, when do you celebrate with these particular elements? At Passover. And how often do you celebrate Passover? Once a year. Now, in the Middle and Far East, the breaking of bread as a primary means of fellowship is considered a veritable spiritual event, and can and should be approached with this same attitude, especially amongst believers, but Paul is being very specific in this case in regard to Passover.

Paul concludes by saying, “For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself, if he does not judge the body rightly. For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. So then my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home. “Seder” means “order,” therefore, “when you come together” for Passover, it must be done in decency and order, and not disorder, so that you may not come together for judgment.” The warning is given, “Therefore whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.” What would be considered approaching the Passover meal in an “unworthy manner?” Well, as we have just mentioned, meeting in irreverence and disregard for fellow believers in the Lord.

But, another way of meeting in an “unworthy manner” would be to celebrate the Passover without the proper recognition of whom Christ is, making right judgment of the Body a virtual impossibility. The severity of such translates into being “guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.” Therefore, it may well be that we should take special care in having unbelievers partake in a Passover Seder in the same way the post-Reformation Church has done in regard to what has come to be known as Communion.

So, how did we come to inherit the practice commonly known as Communion? It is not too difficult to figure out. As the gospel and the Church spread into the predominately Gentile regions, the percentage of Jews in the Church rapidly began to shrink. By sheer weight of numbers, coupled with latent and sometimes blatant anti-Jewish sentiment amongst Church leaders, Jewish influence began to vanish. By the 4th century, with Constantine’s conversion, a mixture of Roman paganism and Christianity produced the foundation of the Holy Roman Empire and the roots of Roman Catholicism, giving rise to many revised or more accurately termed, tainted Church rituals.

Eventually, the practice and belief of Transubstantiation, whereby the bread and the wine actually become the body and blood of Christ, came into being. Centuries later, Martin Luther would be the catalyst of what we call the Protestant Reformation. However, upon closer examination, it was a rather incomplete reformation at best, causing Protestant denominations to inherit more residuals of Catholicism than most could ever realize. Communion is one of those practices that Luther diligently sought to keep with relative little difference in doctrinal view. In The Torch of the Testimony by John W. Kennedy it states, “Luther held that the words, ‘This is My body,’ must be taken literally, and although he disagreed with the Roman view of Transubstantiation, he held that Christ was physically present in the elements, or the doctrine of Consubstantiation as it has come to be known.”

For the sake of man’s traditions, whether it be Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, or some other, flesh is more than capable of “nullifying the Word of God,” even and especially with the best of intentions. When examining these things we must ask, “What did God have in mind from the beginning? Are these things in line with His purposes? Have we been “led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ?” We must be careful neither to add nor take away from what from what God has already ordained in His Word. As to Passover, it is the Lord’s Supper. The Lord’s Supper is Passover, and it is the Lord’s Passover. Jesus knew this. Paul knew this, and so did much of the first century Church. So should we!

And He said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’ And He said to me, “These are the true words of God.”

Sagebrush

***Vic*** · 05-03-2009, 02:15 PM

Hi sagebrush,

I can appreciate you wanting to share your views. But what you have posted is merely one of your own articles I assume. You have covered several concepts in it, and it would be far better to break those ideas down into various posts and possibly other threads. You really need to not simply post your articles.

I would also note that you need to be using the short form initials for whatever Bible version you are quoting from when it is not KJV, due to copyrights.

I would point out that Jesus is our Passover, and we are to view it in a spiritual application..
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

We have no need to celebrate it as it was given very specifically to the Hebrews, to commemorate their deliverance of them from Egypt when God smote the first-born of the Egyptians while passing over their homes which were marked with the blood of a lamb.

The fact is that is still a practice in Judaism today, which does not recognise Jesus Christ.

We are not under the law or the feasts, which were fulfilled in Christ. We have several threads ongoing concerning that topic. We cannot pick and choose which laws to keep. If one chooses to keep only some-he goes under the curse of the law.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

When the law was given it was clear that all were required to be observed. With Christ dying on the cross, and the New Covenant in place, the temple destroyed, there are only a very small portion that one might even begin to uphold. The very scripture you quote about "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law and the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill"

This happens time and again. Let's look at the context, which is before Christ died and the new covenant was in force.:

Matthew 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Each and every person who says they abide the laws of the OT and tells people that only certain ones now apply is guilty of doing the very thing Christians are accused of. That is, teaching that not all have to be kept.

That is not what the law says. And that is not what the NT says concerning the law. If you are going to keep them, you must keep them all.

Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Your belief concerning what Paul wrote to the Corinthians: The point is that Jesus is the bread of life, the living water, and as our passover lamb, it is symbolic and speaks to his dying on the cross, shedding his blood for us, and His sacrifice. It becomes fully a spiritual application. It is about HIM not about us and not about the original passover which was a shadow of what was to come. A Shadow--not the real application which we now see in Jesus Christ.

The order of the Passover meal that you mention--if I am not mistaken is not Scriptural, but rather rabbinic. Correct? Talmud?

Concerning the taking of the bread and wine which Jesus said specifically to do "in rememberance of HIM." It was not as a rememberance of the Jewish Passover. It was to be in rememberance of HIM, who He is, and what He did for us. What He said to do, is not found in the OT passover. Because it was a new thing and part of the New Covenant.

Luke 22:19-20 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

~~sagebrush~~ · 05-03-2009, 04:24 PM

Vic,

Please forgive me as I have not encountered these issues previously on other blogs. However, I consider myself a guest and therefore want to abide by your wishes, among them, not posting entire articles in the future.

I don't know how carefully you read my article because of its length, and again, that is my fault, some of your objections indicate to me that you have misconstrued several of my assertions, made assumptions that are not consistent with what I expressed, and may not be looking at the entire text and context in relation to the weight of Scripture. You obviously are very intelligent, well-educated, and have a superior grasp of Scripture, so that is not part of the equation here. I do not mean that as a patronizing statement at all, but it is shared with utmost respect and sincerity.

Like yourself, I'm sort of from what I refer to as the spiritual State of Missouri, "The Show Me State." The pervading question is, "Where does it say that in Scripture?" "How do you come up with that?" It is an indictment upon much of the church these days that we have such a glut of unbiblical and extrabiblical "popular" teachings being "swallowed hook, line, and sinker." No doubt, spiritual and Biblical discernment is at an all-time low and we are in desperate need of a revival of the Berean spirit. It is no wonder that Paul early on was already expressing his concern over the Church in being "led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ."

As both a student and a teacher (and I will forever be a student) it is often best to address points of perceived disagreement or confusion by asking the other party to clarify or elaborate on those points before engaging in a full-fledged rebuttal. Often, you may find that what you interpreted to mean and what the author intended to mean may not be in accord. And, to be fair, the problem isn't always with the receiver, but can be also be of the giver for not expressing himself in a more clear and concise manner. In that case, the responsibility of misunderstanding is upon the writer/teacher and he/she is then made aware that they need to make the necessary adjustments.

For me to address, clarify, and elaborate on all the points of perceived disagreement you raise would require me to write the equivalent of a couple of articles but I have committed not to submit even one, so I won't break that agreement. Let me just say this for now. Aside from being led by the Spirit, there are tangible reasons why my wife and I are no longer involved in the Messianic Jewish Movement after so many years. From what little I have read from you, I believe we would be in agreement on many, if not most, of the same things that concern you.

Please feel free (of course it goes without saying since you are the administrator) to ask me to clarify and hold me to account for anything I may express. You can pose those questions to me, one point at a time and I will endeavor not to be too longwinded and answer one point at a time. If you choose not to invest your time and energy on that, that's fine. I'm sure you have plenty else to do. But what I'm trying to say is that I have absolutely no problem with anyone challenging me on anything that I express. "Let God be found true and every man be a liar." No one is beyond accountability and, in fact, it is mandated in Scripture, though not always exercised Biblically. I dare say that if we exercised more of that in the Body of Christ, we would spare ourselves much of the self-inflicted damage that is being done these days, to our shame.

Sagebrush

***Vic*** · 05-03-2009, 05:30 PM

(05-03-2009 04:24 PM)sagebrush Wrote: Vic,

Please forgive me as I have not encountered these issues previously on other blogs. However, I consider myself a guest and therefore want to abide by your wishes, among them, not posting entire articles in the future.

I don't know how carefully you read my article because of its length, and again, that is my fault, some of your objections indicate to me that you have misconstrued several of my assertions, made assumptions that are not consistent with what I expressed, and may not be looking at the entire text and context in relation to the weight of Scripture. .... Aside from being led by the Spirit, there are tangible reasons why my wife and I are no longer involved in the Messianic Jewish Movement after so many years. From what little I have read from you, I believe we would be in agreement on many, if not most, of the same things that concern you.

Please feel free (of course it goes without saying since you are the administrator) to ask me to clarify and hold me to account for anything I may express. You can pose those questions to me, one point at a time and I will endeavor not to be too longwinded and answer one point at a time. ...No one is beyond accountability and, in fact, it is mandated in Scripture, though not always exercised Biblically. I dare say that if we exercised more of that in the Body of Christ, we would spare ourselves much of the self-inflicted damage that is being done these days, to our shame.

Sagebrush

That's ok sagebrush. Being on a forum is a little different than a blog. And I can fully understand how difficult it is to shorten things. Take a look at my website if you want lengthy articles. Biggrin

Thanks for the cudos but it is not correct. I have no credentials, and am no one in the scheme of things other than a person who desires to live for Christ and who knows that all we need to serve Him are given for His purposes and His glory. It is so totally not about us and any perceived abilities. I prefer to just serve Him and be a Berean in checking things to the Scriptures.

I did read your article-twice. Plus reread portions of it several times while posting. It's good that you agree that we can evaluate things. I picked a few things and responded to them. You didn't comment on them and that's ok. You also said you welcome questions. You must have missed the specific questions I asked you. Those being:

Quote:The order of the Passover meal that you mention--if I am not mistaken is not Scriptural, but rather rabbinic. Correct? Talmud?

I really would like an answer to that. And I agree, a lot of damage and error is done by not asking or checking into things ourselves Th_goodpoint

~~sagebrush~~ · 05-03-2009, 07:26 PM

Quote:
The order of the Passover meal that you mention--if I am not mistaken is not Scriptural, but rather rabbinic. Correct? Talmud?

Aside from my literal response, it is my sincere hope that you will be able to see more into my thinking and my heart in answering this question, which I do appreciate. In answer to your question, what we have inherited today is heavily derived from rabbinical teaching accumulated over countless generations, though there was some semblence of order during the meal as indicated in passages such as in Luke 22. But, allow me not to focus on that aspect right now.

Several years ago my wife and I came to a place, as we have done in virtually every spiritual conviction in our lives, where we stopped to ask ourselves the question, "What does God want in all this?" What was His original intentions for us doing this in the first place?" "In the second place, how did he intended it to be done, if done at all?" It is remeniscent of the main character in "Fiddler on the Roof" when rhetorically asking why the Jews practice a certain tradition where in so many words he answers, "Well, I tell you! I don't know! We've always done it this way!"

Specifically to this, what prompted our re-evaluation on how we approached Passover, we were invited to come to the Island country of Jamaica to put on for a gathering of churches, the first Passover Seder in their history. We wanted to present it to them in such a way, in teaching and practice, where it would mean something to them, where they could make it their own within their own unique culture, they didn't need so-called "experts" to lead them in it, but they would be able to celebrate each year thereafter.

Well, we decided to esentially throw out the old traditional Passover Seder (Haggadah) and simply rely on the original Scriptures, while also doing some historical research. We also wanted to rediscover the intended spirit of this Biblical Feast. The end result was that, first of all, we were absolutely convinced that it had become far more complicated than it was ever intended to be. In a sense, it was just one more example of "being led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ." We returned to square one. We studied the Passover in the Mosaic Law, the Prophets, and in the New Testament. We emptied out our preconceived notions and approached as if it were all new to us.

Now, we had concluded that even by the time of Jesus, that a a couple of traditions had found its way into the Passover Seder, such as the drinking of multiple cups of wine with the associated symbolism. But, it was not intended to be the heavily ritualistic and cumbersom practice we have today. The traditional Seder was filled with, "This rabbi said this, and this rabbi said that!" Not to be irreverant, but we said, "We don't care what rabbi so and so said!" We care what God said, what the Scriptures said!"

So, we found ourselves discarding about 80-90% of the original, that had been heaped on top of what was Scripturally laid out and came up with a far simpler, accurate, and more spiritually meaningful feast than ever previously known to us. If we were going to do it, we didn't want any part of perpetuating religious drudgery, but an expression which needed, even demanded, to be filled with the Life and Light of Messiah. By God's grace, we have been freed from dead works, and if there is no life, His Life, manifest in this, or any other outward expression, I don't want any part of it!

So, in the end, it proved to be a rich blessing to those precious saints in Jamaica, which I imagine they continue to this day. They were taught that this wasn't some "Jewish thing," but it was, so to speak, "God's thing," and therefore, it belonged to them as much as it did the Jews as the Scriptures revealed. Make no mistake, it has nothing to do with being under the Law. Nobody's salvation or righteousness is at stake here. In the spirit of the Scriptures it is simply a privilege and blessing in honoring and remembering what the Lord has done for us, continues to do for us, and will do for us in the future. And as often as we do it, we do it in remembrance of Him.

I hope this explanation, at least in part, more than anything else, expresses my heart attitude behind the words.

Sagebrsuh