What About The Star of David?

[LindaR]

Sorry if I got the thread off-topic.

[sheep wrecked]

(03-31-2009 08:45 PM)LindaR Wrote:   Sorry if I got the thread off-topic.

No problem! It happens all the time

That why Vic "hired" me, to take care of important jobs like getting threads to stay on topic

You just gave me some job security :cloud9:

[Vic]

(03-31-2009 08:45 PM)LindaR Wrote:   Sorry if I got the thread off-topic.

Did someone say

[LindaR]

back at ya!

Now back to our regularly scheduled topic!

[4given]

I am doing a study on this just now and thanks to google ended up on your site.

I gave my Messianic friend some info I had on this and she has sent me back the following:

Quote:the name that is used in the Aramaic text is actually Rephan (Repa in Coptic) not Remphan

Quote:The star that represents Rephan is actually a five pointed star like the ones on the american flag.

This is the symbol for Seb aka Repa, Rephan, Chiun-Rephan, Rempham, Remphan

http://www.atlantisquest.com/hiero6.jpg and this is the image she showed

and she pointed out that it was a 5 pointed star and not 6 pointed and that the 5 pointed star represented the Egyptian god and not the 6 pointed one. Plus the following:

Quote:David's name was spelled by using the Hebrew letter Dalet. During the time of David this Dalet was written using a triangle. The Dalet of that time period looks nothing like the modern Hebrew Dalet. Here is a http://www.fossilizedcustoms.com/starofdavid explaining more and here is another http://www.therefinersfire.org/star_of_david

I was told that I was trying to wipe our Jewishness and it was just a counter attack by the church since the HR movement have shown how pagan the Church is.

Is there any proof that Dalet is the reason for the Star of David?

Thank you

[sheep wrecked]

(04-05-2009 06:17 AM)4given Wrote:  I am doing a study on this just now and thanks to google ended up on your site.

I gave my Messianic friend some info I had on this and she has sent me back the following:

Quote:the name that is used in the Aramaic text is actually Rephan (Repa in Coptic) not Remphan

Quote:The star that represents Rephan is actually a five pointed star like the ones on the american flag.

This is the symbol for Seb aka Repa, Rephan, Chiun-Rephan, Rempham, Remphan

http://www.atlantisquest.com/hiero6.jpg and this is the image she showed

and she pointed out that it was a 5 pointed star and not 6 pointed and that the 5 pointed star represented the Egyptian god and not the 6 pointed one. Plus the following:

Quote:David's name was spelled by using the Hebrew letter Dalet. During the time of David this Dalet was written using a triangle. The Dalet of that time period looks nothing like the modern Hebrew Dalet. Here is a http://www.fossilizedcustoms.com/starofdavid explaining more and here is another http://www.therefinersfire.org/star_of_david

I was told that I was trying to wipe our Jewishness and it was just a counter attack by the church since the HR movement have shown how pagan the Church is.

Is there any proof that Dalet is the reason for the Star of David?

Thank you

I found a couple of articles on the net. The 2nd one is from a Jewish website - perhaps that will lend some credibility to the concept that the hexagram was not associated with David or the dalet in his name. That is myth/legend similar to other myths that the HR movement latches onto as "historical fact".

Quote: Magen David is a generally recognized symbol of Judaism and Jewish identity and is also known colloquially as the Jewish Star or "Star of David". Its usage as a sign of Jewish identity began in the Middle Ages, though its religious usage began earlier, with the current earliest archeological evidence being a stone bearing the shield from the arch of a 3-4th century synagogue in the Galilee [1]. A more enduring symbol of Judaism, the menorah, has been in use since BCE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexagram

The evolution of the six-pointed Jewish star, the "Magen David," literally the "Shield of David." also known as the hexagram, or more rarely, *Solomon's Seal, is long and complex. Although it is now the most common and universally recognized sign of Judaism and Jewish identity, both within and outside of the Jewish community, it has only achieved this status in the last two hundred years. Before that it was chiefly associated with magic or with the insignia of individual families or communities. Yet despite its equivocal history, Jews have long been attracted to this design and have sought to ascribe to it venerable origins. In our own day, its universal Jewish popularity, especially as the symbol of the State of Israel, has made the question of its origins moot.

Because of its geometric symmetry, the hexagram has been a popular symbol in many cultures from earliest times. Anthropologists claim that the triangle pointing downward represents female sexuality, and the triangle pointing upward, male sexuality; thus, their combination symbolizes unity and harmony. In alchemy, the two triangles symbolize *"fire" and *"water"; together, they represent the reconciliation of opposites. Some medieval alchemists even borrowed the talmudic pun - ish mayim, fiery water, and shamayim , heaven - to demonstrate the interpenetration of the two realms. 1 Because if this symbolism, the hexagram was even used occasionally as the emblem displayed above a brandy shop.

The earliest known Jewish use of the hexagram was as a seal in ancient Israel (6th century B.C.E.) and then eight centuries later in a *synagogue frieze in Capernaum. But these early hexagrams may have been only ornamental designs; ironically, a swastika, another popular ancient motif, appears alongside the hexagram on the Capernaum synagogue wall. In the Middle Ages, hexagrams appear frequently on churches, but rarely in synagogues or on Jewish ritual objects. It was the *menorah that served as the primary Jewish symbol from antiquity until the post-Renaissance period, not the " Jewish star."

Although scholars have attempted to trace the Star of David back to King David himself; to Rabbi Akiva and the Bar Kokhba ("son of the star") rebellion (135 C.E.); or to *kabbalists, especially Rabbi Isaac Luria (16th century), no Jewish literature or artifacts document this claim. Rather, all evidence suggests that the early use of the hexagram was limited to "practical Kabbalah," that is, Jewish magic, probably dating back to the 6th century C.E. Legends connect this symbol with the "Seal of Solomon," the magical signet signet *ring used by King Solomon to control demons and spirits. 2 Although the original ring was inscribed with the Tetragrammaton, the sacred Four-Letter *Name of God, medieval *amulets imitating this ring substituted the hexagram or pentagram (five-pointed stare), often accompanied by rampant *lions, for the sacred Name. The star inscribed on these rings was usually called the "Seal of Solomon."

Among Jewish mystics and wonderworkers, the hexagram was most commonly used as a magical protection against demons, often inscribed on the outside of *mezuzot and on amulets.

http://www.menorah.org/starofdavid.html[/quote]

[Vic]

Welcome 4given. Glad you joined right in.

Quote:I gave my Messianic friend some info I had on this and she has sent me back the following:
Quote: the name that is used in the Aramaic text is actually Rephan (Repa in Coptic) not Remphan

The original text is in Greek not Aramaic for the Acts 7:43 quote. In Amos 5:26, it was in Hebrew, Chiun. Remphan /. Chiun in Hebrew is rendered by the LXX. as "Rephan." These names represent the star-god Saturn or Moloch.

In the LXX (translated from Hebrew to Greek)it is rendered 'Rephan' or Raifan for the Amos passage.

LXX 5:26 και ανελαβετε την σκηνην του μολοχ και το αστρον του θεου υμων ραιφαν τους τυπους αυτων ους εποιησατε εαυτοις

Greek » English -incomplete translation 5:26 and took the skinin of Moloch and the star of sulfur you raifan the type s epoiisate eaftois http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/index.htm

The Peshitta org., who are aramiac primacists, translate Amos 5:26 as "You also carried along Sikkuth your king and Kiyyun, your images, the star of your gods which you made for yourselves. And Acts 7:43> Israel sons of me worshipped to be that you made images of Rephan of the god and the star the tabernacles behold. http://www.peshitta.org/

From the King James Version, showing the Strong's numbers:
Amos 5:26 the tabernacleH5522 of your MolochH4432 and ChiunH3594 your images,H6754 the starH3556 of your god,H430

Moloch >H4432 מלךmôlek
BDB Definition: Molech = “king” 1) the god of the Ammonites and Phoenicians to whom some Israelites sacrificed their infants in the valley of Hinnom

Chiun H3594 כּיּוּןkîyûn
BDB Definition: Chiun = “an image” or “pillar” 1) probably a statue of the Assyrian-Babylonian god of the planet Saturn and used to symbolise Israelite apostasy

Acts 7:43 ...theG3588 tabernacleG4633 of Moloch,G3434 andG2532 theG3588 starG798 of yourG5216 godG2316 Remphan,G4481

Moloch> G3434 Μολόχ Moloch
Thayer Definition: Molech = “king” 1) the name of the idol god of the Ammonites, to which human victims, particularly young children were offered in sacrifice. Its image was a hollow brazen figure, with the head of an ox, and outstretched human arms. It was heated red hot by a fire from within, and the little ones placed in its arms to be slowly burned, while to prevent the parents from hearing the dying cries, the sacrificing priests beat drums

Remphan >G4481 Ῥεμφάν Rhemphan
Thayer Definition: Remphan = “the shrunken (as lifeless)” 1) the name of an idol worshipped secretly by the Israelites in the wilderness

Quote: The star that represents Rephan is actually a five pointed star like the ones on the american flag. This is the symbol for Seb aka Repa, Rephan, Chiun-Rephan, Rempham, Remphan http://www.atlantisquest.com/hiero6.jpg and this is the image she showed and she pointed out that it was a 5 pointed star and not 6 pointed and that the 5 pointed star represented the Egyptian god and not the 6 pointed one.

The pentagram -5 pointed- and hexagram-6 pointed--were interchangeable. I am not sure what point is being made about the one being an egyptian god---all were false gods. Does the symbolism for one seem less pagan than for another? I would suggst you look at my articles which are on my website as they show the symbols being discussed.

Quote: David's name was spelled by using the Hebrew letter Dalet. During the time of David this Dalet was written using a triangle. The Dalet of that time period looks nothing like the modern Hebrew Dalet. Here is a http://www.fossilizedcustoms.com/starofdavid explaining more and here is another http://www.therefinersfire.org/star_of_david

The sources are nonsense.. Lew White of Fossilized Customs has written much foundational junk for the HR movement. We have a thread on the go exposing some of what he is about. http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=19

One note in White's opinion based article--

Quote: "It's my personal opinion that the star of Da'ud (as it is referred to in modern times) was adopted by Pagans, just as the serpent Nehushtan on the pole was, but the original articles remain undefiled. As with many things, it's the use that they are put to that really matters. "

That goes against his usual stance that everything Christians do is actually pagan because everything came from pagan sources.

Quote:I was told that I was trying to wipe our Jewishness and it was just a counter attack by the church since the HR movement have shown how pagan the Church is. Is there any proof that Dalet is the reason for the Star of David?

I just read the Refiners Fire article---and also their quoted section by Andrew Gabriel Roth-whom I am sure you will receive info on from Sheep..

What they said here:

Quote:"The Jews" as many allege, never set out to use use an occultic symbol to represent their nation. Originally, the Hebrew name Magen David ("Shield of David") poetically referred to God. ...Their intent was never to worship Moloch, Chiun or Remphan, the names for the star god, Saturn, whose symbol is a six pointed star formed by two triangles worshipped by the Chaldeans. This is idea is completely man-made and fabricated and the bottom line is, it's just another attack against the Jewish people....to a Jewish person, the six points of the Star of David symbolize God's rule over the universe in all six directions: north, south, east, west, up and down..." http://www.therefinersfire.org/star_of_david.htm

First of all, Israel did worship Moloch & Chiun/Remphan, according to the Scriptures and they took the star symbolism that went with it.

We see in the source quotes in my first posted article which had sourced one advocate (who is Jewish) of the 6 pted star, which is different than what White or Ref. Fire stated:

Quote:

“...In fact in Judaism, it is known as ‘The Shield of David’ or Magen David and is not seen as a star. Its rabbinic interpretation is the configuration of the 12 tribes around The holy Ark sojourning through the wilderness... It is a 5 star Pentegram that is a satanic emblem, not a six pointed Star of David…” 7

According to the Encyclopaedia Judaica’s article, Magen David, this hexagram symbol is known under various names: “Hebrew…Shield of David…hexagram or six-pointed star.” 8.

...in this Jewish article, the six-pointed star or hexagram is mentioned many times and acknowledged as being a magical symbol:

“In Arab sources the hexagram…was widely used under the designation “seal of Solomon,” a term which was also taken over by many Jewish groups…It is not clear in which period the hexagram was engraved on the seal or ring of Solomon, mentioned in the Talmud (Git.68a-b) as a sign of his dominion over the demons instead of the name of God, which originally appeared…In Arabic magic the “seal of Solomon” was widely used, but at first it’s use in Jewish circles was restricted to relatively rare cases. Even then, the hexagram and pentagram were easily interchangeable and the name was applied to both figures.” 7

"Between 1300 and 1700 the two terms shield of David and seal of Solomon, are used indiscriminately, predominately in magical texts…” 9 [bolding/color/italics added] end of quotes

As noted in the Jewish Encyclopeida and other sources quoted, the six pointed was used, as was the five.. Even a Jews for Judaism anti-missionary stated after reading my article about the star of david, that it was from Babylon--then added, So what? I am sure if the dalet was the source it would have been included in the Jewish Enc. information don't you?

Did you note that there was no documentation for any of the facts re that information in either White's article of the Refiner's article?

Incidentally, with regard to your basically being called anti-Jewish--Jews for Judaism know I am not anti-semetic or anti -Jewish. As do my Jewish friends and others, including those who post on this forum or write me, and I have extensively discussed these things, indepth as you can see. It is those in the HR/messianic movements who have nothing to stand on, and who are mostly gentiles wanting to appear Jewish who make the false accusations. And give all this junk doctrine and 'facts' to support their beliefs.

[sheep wrecked]

Taken from the Refiner's Fire link in which Andrew Gabriel Roth is "teaching":

Quote:Revelation 3: 1 - "To the messenger of the assembly in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the SEVEN SPIRITS OF ELOHIM and the SEVEN STARS (can anyone say MENORAH???). I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Seven spirits--right? Or perhaps this is easier:

Spirit 1) YHWH (Himself in totality/unity), sometimes implied as KETER or ETARAH (crown/will)--see Isaiah 28:5. Spirit 2) Spiritual Wisdom (chokhmah). Spirit 3) Earthly Understanding (binah). Spirit 4) Counsel (et-sah) Spirit 5) Power (gevurah) Spirit 6) Knowledge of YHWH (da'at) Spirit 7). "Fear" (i.e. respect, seeing the need to prostrate before the power) of YHWH (yirah).

How does this relate to the MAGEN DAWID you ask? Simple: It has six points and the seventh is the HOLE in the middle that is the TIFERET, the harmony of YHWH.

http://www.therefinersfire.org/star_of_david.htm

Mr Roth is teaching kabbalah in association with the Magen David, which is appropriate [keter - chokhmah - binah - gevurah - da'at - tiferet]. The star of David is kabbalistic as stated in the article that I quoted, showing that it has mystical and magical properties associated with it. Although I do have to chuckle at his conclusions about the 7 fold spirit of God. 7 Spirits, yet a six pointed star - does anyone see how ridiculous that is?

Mr Roth has no credible scholarship in credentialed Aramaic circles. The only ones who venerate his "skills" are those in Hebrew Roots. Some of his teachings are down right silly - like the time he taught that sheep in the NT referred only to males, not females :rofl:

[4given]

Thank you both so much for all that information. The original text was Greek - forgot about that............... so why the need of my friend go to the aramaic????

I'll get my thoughts together on this on paper and let my friend see it.

[sheep wrecked]

(04-05-2009 05:16 PM)4given Wrote:  Thank you both so much for all that information. The original text was Greek - forgot about that............... so why the need of my friend go to the aramaic????

I'll get my thoughts together on this on paper and let my friend see it.

Many in the HR movement believe that the NT was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic [to fill a theological need - in other words, if the NT is not originally Greek, then they can "rewrite" it in Hebrew to change it to be "Torah friendly"]. Mr Roth goes for the Aramaic. There is no historical proof of anything but Greek primacy - so you are right on there