Suicide and mercy killing

[Strefanash]

To tell someone that it's "their fault" that they are suicidal is pretty cruel when that person has been traumatized to such an extent that mental abuse has already taken its toll on them.

Stref: as I said in my post, you dont tell people this truth even if it is true. THey will take it from Gods when He is ready, the rest of us shut up.

I told you this, did you not notice. I may have suffered from job's counsellors even more than you or your associates. so an untimely truth is false is it ?

as for your views on repemntance not working, if it is conjured by the flesh it never will, for it is not and cannot be sincere. How can it be when those who walk in the flesh cannot submit (and must be lead to it by God in his grace). please read my dealing with this one

your model of brain function is materialist. Would you have me believe that the deceitful thoughts of the wicked heart of man, and deep unforgiveness have no effect on a person's emotional life?

How is the brain effected by abuse? I hold that a person can be driven to despair by unforgiveness. Your view is mechanist and deterministic, mine is moral and I believe spiritual.

does brain chemistry cause the mental state or is it the result of the moral state? did adrenalin cause my anger or result from it, for example

What is the relationship of the brain and the mind? Where does the human spirit fit into this? Your thinking follows modern artheist science and its materialist presuppositions. Does the survival of the human soul after death show that to some extent mind and brain are separate things?

Would you have me take my medication, believe i love God and then suffer for the rest of my life. I am not looking for a patch up job on drugs, but full healing, the abundant life the fruit of the spirit

The fruit of the spirit is love joy and peace. you know them by their fruit. I know that by my despair insofar as it remains i am not in the spirit, I walk in the flesh and do not know the lord.

I do not despair at the fact of my sin, why do you find the idea unpalatable? Is not God more merciful than that? Must you water down sin by appeal to brain chemistry

PLEASE REREAD MY POST, you seem not to be responding to it, only of reacting, and you have seemingly ignored my comments about the unbelief that is the core of depression.

as a man thinks in his heart so he is, out of the heart of man comes evil thoughts, we ar ejudged bny every careless word, he who is angry without cause (ie unrighteously angry, vengefuly angry rather than angry for the persron one is angry at) is a murderer. Thus the self murderous impulse is sin not biochemistry

Be sure I have considered this one deeply for more than 25 years. what about my testimony. is that to be ignored because of materialist theory of mind?

[Liberated by Faith]

I would agree that suicide is the result of sin and not biochemistry. Suicide is the result of man relying on something else other than Christ to solve his problems.

Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him and a stranger they will not hear. I cannot see the last act a child of God commits on this earth being to obey the voice of another shepherd.

[sheep wrecked]

My comments are from the other side of the fence. I am well aware of the spiritual implications in connection with suicide. There are deeper considerations that perhaps most people aren't aware of. When you spend 24/7 with kids who are suicidal and adults who have been dreadfully abused and neglected, the brain IS altered.

Basically, the problem is two fold. Spiritual and physical. God created babies to have nurturing, caring mothers who caressed, held, loved, gazed into their child's eyes and interacted with them stirring up a chemical in the brain that responds to this love, care and attention. This is a natural connection between mother and child that should not be broken or "messed" with. I am not by any means stating that the situation is perfect, but a mother who is a believer and has deep relationship with God WILL make a difference in how that child develops mentally and spiritually - it will also affect how the brain develops.

On the flip side, the critical issue is that when a baby is abused and/or neglected [although legally, neglect is also abuse] the child's brain/mind does not develop properly in how they perceive life, themselves and others, and even spiritually. It's missing a connection and is a spiritual issue as well as a physical/mental one.

As the child begins to develop, observance reveals just how messed up their minds are. Even if a child is adopted at a very young age, the brain has already been changed and altered to view life and to react to life in a different way than a "normal" child. Children as young as 4 yrs old can be suicidal dependent on what abuse they have suffered. It would probably shock you to know how many children have attempted suicide at such a young age. Telling them that Jesus will "make them better" is not the solution. Showing them the error of their ways or that they are suffering from demons or spiritual abuse, or a lack of trusting in God means nothing to them. Just as a small child cannot understand these things, most adults who have spent years with their minds messed up cannot grasp the spiritual implications either. So they have to be on drugs in order to quiet their minds enough to exist. Mental illness is not someone's imagination. The syndromes and labels do help categorize people in order to get them the help that they need.

I could give you personal examples [both children and adults], but I find that many christians who view life from a "spiritual" mind set cannot grasp the realities of mental illness.

Stref - I understand where you are coming from. I am well aware of how you have struggled and found healing, but your case is unusual, it is not typical. Also, psych wards do not exist in the states. Unless people are on medication here, they roam the streets and are a threat to themselves and others. Once on medication they are in residential treatment programs or in nursing homes - not the horrific mental wards [although some are horrible I am sure and are wrongly medicated]. Most people on drugs can lead a somewhat normal life, although many are on disability so the govt can support them to live on their own. To me, that is the grace of God and I thank Him daily for providing for these poor souls - there are 1000s of them.

Most people, even those who are Christians, cannot and will not be healed of depression and suicidal propensities. In order for one to be healed, either God instantly delivers them, or they must concentrate their lives to God, deeply studying, reading, and allowing the Holy Spirit to change them. It is hard work for most. A continual dependence on God to cleanse them of the horrors of what they have endured takes great strength. I am not saying that God can't or won't provide that in His grace, but He never promised He would do that for everyone. I have found those that suffer so deeply yet, after years of trusting the Lord, have given me great insight into how God sustains them, even in the worst bouts of depression. But if they cannot "come out of it" and it does cause their deaths, I would be the last person to judge them as condemned. God is just and merciful.

Most Christians who's minds have been messed with to such a degree, and who pray, read the Bible, love the Lord, still cannot get out of the trauma they received. They must be on medications to maintain equilibrium. That does not mean they don't trust the Lord or are not dependent on Him.

[Strefanash]

He has never promised to grant repentance to thosre who seriously seek him? The fact that most refuse to seek him or only pretend to seek him does not alter this fact

When psychiatrists see chemical states associated with certain behaviours they assume causality because their presuppostions require this. But if man is a living soul, a person not mereky a chemical reaction, then the situation is more complex

What do medications do. They REPRESS thought. THat is what they are for. See below, the book i recommend explains this. How can one repent of one's skewed thinking if it is buried beyond reach? They do not treat brain imbalances as lithium carbonate, for example (the poison of choice for repressing the behaviour of so called bi polars) does NOT occur in the human body

Psychiatry does not believe that evil thoughts come from out of the heart of men. THey even hold that belief in God is in fact schizophrenic illness. THis they told me on the ward. Therefore they invoke chemical malfunction because in their world all people are good and therefore MUST be the victims of brain malfunction. To them all sinners are only victims of biochemistry for THERE IS NO SIN

You are quick to point out the non christian roots of many theories and philosophies. But have completely failed to see the non christian nature of modern psychiatry

The fact is the huge bullk of people will not repent or even consider it. I myself have resisted the Lord ferociously over these years. Psychiatry is tailor made for them to say "my brain made me do it.

AS for the reality of mental illness: THERE IS NO SUCH THING. THere is despair, there is suffering, ther are people so disoriented by their suffering as to be in delusion. But this is not an illness. THat it is like an illness in its manifestations does not mean it is an illness. persons can sulk or presume, but body organs simply malfunction. But sulking and presumption are roots of depression and delusion. If they are not then i never repented of them. Which is it then?

A person despairing in a terrible situation is not the same thing as a pancreas malfunctioning. Psychiatry draws direct and false analogy.

But more than that psychiartry is intrinsicially an anti christian doctrine. It reduces man to a chemically determined object. thus is denies free will and moral acountability. It is biochemical determinism based on an atheist presupposition

If your theories, developed by carnal minds in an attempt to underastand human suffering at the expense of facing the fact of sin and moral response, are true then my "healing " is delusion. If suicidal and depressive suffering is errant brain chemistry then MINE was also

you CANNOT have it both ways. you CANNOT say my case was special in order to defend your own system, the matrerialist nature of your system will no allow this. Therefore either there is no God, for biblical understanding of human suffering is useless at best ands delusional at worst, or I have falsely witness against Him by claiming a healing that is NOT REAL.

I have never repented of influenza, I never thought anyone could or should repentof pneumonia, which killed my mother, or heat failure which killed my father. But why did Jesus say "fear not?" IF he commands it i can and must repent of the unbelief which fear is comprised of.

Did my failure toi honour my parents because they did not ewant me or could not cope wioth a child have anything to do wth it? what does the law of moses say honour your parents that it may go well with you

Am i a persoin who responded in a morally accountable way to the neglect i myself knew as a child such that i did not honpour my parents in response to their incompetence? Or am I a material object without freewill who is causally determined by environmental factrors without moral facts involved


REad the anti psychiatric litertature. Peter Breggins' Toxic Psychiatry is a good start

---

you have seen the suffering of people silenced by drugs. I do not diuspute that those who will not face their sin want to be silenced by drugs, i even pleased for rthem once myself. This does not prove that their suffering was caused by biochemistry. you have interpreted human suffering in a non christian manner, after the way of the world and its unbelieving sciences which are tainted by ungodly presuppostion the closer they come to human nature. THus astronomy is fairly pure (except for cosmology which is nonsense as they want the big bag). But psychiatry deals with the cause of the Fall itself, Human nature. therefore it is utterly skewed

[Liberated by Faith]

Quote:1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

I believe this verse says it all. God makes a way for escape from all temptations... even the temptation to commit suicide. That escape is not a gun, rope, poison, or any other means other than the Lord Jesus Christ.

God will give people the strength to resist any temptation... but only if one submits oneself to God first. I dare not take the chance in trusting a gun as my savior when the true Savior speaks life and peace to my ear. Nor will I tell others that the gun is a way of escape that is provided by God seeing that it is the devil that seeks to steal, kill and destroy... not God.

[sheep wrecked]

(05-17-2009 02:43 PM)Strefanash Wrote:  He has never promised to grant repentance to thosre who seriously seek him? The fact that most refuse to seek him or only pretend to seek him does not alter this fact

What does repentance have to do with mental illness?

Quote:When psychiatrists see chemical states associated with certain behaviours they assume causality because their presuppostions require this. But if man is a living soul, a person not mereky a chemical reaction, then the situation is more complex

What do medications do. They REPRESS thought. THat is what they are for. See below, the book i recommend explains this. How can one repent of one's skewed thinking if it is buried beyond reach? They do not treat brain imbalances as lithium carbonate, for example (the poison of choice for repressing the behaviour of so called bi polars) does NOT occur in the human body

Psychiatry does not believe that evil thoughts come from out of the heart of men. THey even hold that belief in God is in fact schizophrenic illness. THis they told me on the ward. Therefore they invoke chemical malfunction because in their world all people are good and therefore MUST be the victims of brain malfunction. To them all sinners are only victims of biochemistry for THERE IS NO SIN

It doesn't matter, stref. We are not talking a Christian community, but those who are tying to deal with people who are mentally unstable and a threat to themselves and society.

Do you propose that we round them all up and bring them to church to have hands laid on them?

Quote:You are quick to point out the non christian roots of many theories and philosophies. But have completely failed to see the non christian nature of modern psychiatry.

I am quite well aware of it. So what option do we have with 1000s of people running around with their brains wacked out due to dysfunction and mental illness because they were sexually molested, beaten to a pulp, used as sex objects, abused, ridiculed, starved, and neglected, watched people get murdered, do drugs, etc. A simple prayer and a Bible verse?

Quote:The fact is the huge bullk of people will not repent or even consider it. I myself have resisted the Lord ferociously over these years. Psychiatry is tailor made for them to say "my brain made me do it.

AS for the reality of mental illness: THERE IS NO SUCH THING. THere is despair, there is suffering, ther are people so disoriented by their suffering as to be in delusion. But this is not an illness. THat it is like an illness in its manifestations does not mean it is an illness. persons can sulk or presume, but body organs simply malfunction. But sulking and presumption are roots of depression and delusion. If they are not then i never repented of them. Which is it then?

You can repent all you want. That does not make dysfunction go away. The brain shuts down - cognitive mental ability evaporates. Do you propose to turn these people loose because they have not "repented"? I am still not sure what repentance has to do with people who are depressed.

Quote:A person despairing in a terrible situation is not the same thing as a pancreas malfunctioning. Psychiatry draws direct and false analogy.

I am not speaking of psychiatry, but of a natural progression when the mind is abused and becomes unable to deal with life. If is no different than bleeding on the brain which causes mental retardation. I am not sure that we can completely understand the mind do you?

I understand that you want to categorize and vilify psychiatry, but it is not the enemy. I have seen medications change a person from a raving lunatic to having some reasonable cognitive thought process and able to live a more normal life.

Quote:But more than that psychiartry is intrinsicially an anti christian doctrine. It reduces man to a chemically determined object. thus is denies free will and moral acountability. It is biochemical determinism based on an atheist presupposition

I don't believe that is true. When a person "calms" down from medication and their brain is engaged down normal thought patterns, they are able to make moral decisions and even understand that God can make a difference. You cannot feed proper information into a person when their minds have left their immediate vicinity

Quote:If your theories, developed by carnal minds in an attempt to underastand human suffering at the expense of facing the fact of sin and moral response, are true then my "healing " is delusion. If suicidal and depressive suffering is errant brain chemistry then MINE was also

you CANNOT have it both ways. you CANNOT say my case was special in order to defend your own system, the matrerialist nature of your system will no allow this. Therefore either there is no God, for biblical understanding of human suffering is useless at best ands delusional at worst, or I have falsely witness against Him by claiming a healing that is NOT REAL.

I think you are misunderstanding my position. I know that it's a spiritual "battle". But 99.9999999999999999% of the population do not recognize this and can do nothing about it. If we have medications to help those who don't, then why are you so against it?

Have you ever seen a child go stark raving mad? Screaming, hitting, spitting, throwing [extreme violence] to the extent of harming themselves and others? What do you suggest in that case?

What do you suggest in treatment of a child who is 10 years old, is autistic to the extreme that he lives in his own world. He cannot relate, does not speak, has the mental ability of a 3 month old baby, but without meds will suck and bite his hands until they bleed and jerk to self stimulate until you wonder if he can survive the attack on his own body?

What do you suggest as a treatment for a child who is 11 1/2 years old that without medications will shriek, bite his arms to the bone, hit his head, his arms, his legs so hard that welts appear and in danger of breakage with the mentality of a 12 month old? Or seizures that if not controlled with high potent drugs will kill him?

What do you suggest as a treatment plan?