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sheep wrecked · (This post was last modified: 06-29-2010 12:00 PM by sheep wrecked.)

(06-28-2010 09:34 PM)truthbetold Wrote:
(06-28-2010 09:24 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:
(06-28-2010 06:32 PM)truthbetold Wrote: let me ask you this ok how do you think God refer to jesus before his birth?

Lord

Psa 110:1 The LORD said to my Lord, Sit you at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.

what do you think this verse is referring to?

Proverbs 30:4 (King James Version)

4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

God was prophesying of the Son to come. We know this because John and Paul quotes these verses:

Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaks on this wise, Say not in your heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: )
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very near to you, in your mouth, and in your heart, that you may do it

***Vic*** · 06-29-2010, 02:26 PM

(06-29-2010 10:54 AM)truthbetold Wrote: good answer i agree it is Jesus Christ

just a thought this go good with Daniel cbhapter 7 or was it 9 about him seeing one like the son of man and that his kingdom is eternal right? do i have the right chapter?

Actually what I was pointing to was that in that verse, Jesus is also called ***The mighty God, ***The everlasting Father,*** terms which are not normally just referencing the Son. Here we see everlasting Father but not the phrase, eternal or everlasting Son. THe quesion would be, why not? Why doesn't it say everlasting Son?

truthbetold · (This post was last modified: 06-29-2010 03:26 PM by truthbetold.)

(06-29-2010 11:59 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote:
(06-28-2010 09:34 PM)truthbetold Wrote:
(06-28-2010 09:24 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:
(06-28-2010 06:32 PM)truthbetold Wrote: let me ask you this ok how do you think God refer to jesus before his birth?

Lord

Psa 110:1 The LORD said to my Lord, Sit you at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.

what do you think this verse is referring to?

Proverbs 30:4 (King James Version)

4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

God was prophesying of the Son to come. We know this because John and Paul quotes these verses:

Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaks on this wise, Say not in your heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: )
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very near to you, in your mouth, and in your heart, that you may do it

sheep I do not really see in proverbs 30:4 that jesus will become the son but proverbs already acknowledge who the son is.

(06-29-2010 02:26 PM)Vic Wrote:
(06-29-2010 10:54 AM)truthbetold Wrote: good answer i agree it is Jesus Christ

just a thought this go good with Daniel cbhapter 7 or was it 9 about him seeing one like the son of man and that his kingdom is eternal right? do i have the right chapter?

Actually what I was pointing to was that in that verse, Jesus is also called ***The mighty God, ***The everlasting Father,*** terms which are not normally just referencing the Son. Here we see everlasting Father but not the phrase, eternal or everlasting Son. THe quesion would be, why not? Why doesn't it say everlasting Son?

in the New testament Jesus is given titles that belong to God the father but the Nt does not hold ever title that belongs to God and i think the question is pretty moot.

***Vic*** · (This post was last modified: 06-29-2010 04:28 PM by Vic.)

(06-29-2010 03:13 PM)truthbetold Wrote:
(06-29-2010 11:59 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote:
(06-28-2010 09:34 PM)truthbetold Wrote:
(06-28-2010 09:24 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:
(06-28-2010 06:32 PM)truthbetold Wrote: let me ask you this ok how do you think God refer to jesus before his birth?

Lord

Psa 110:1 The LORD said to my Lord, Sit you at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.

what do you think this verse is referring to?

Proverbs 30:4 (King James Version)

4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

God was prophesying of the Son to come. We know this because John and Paul quotes these verses:

Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaks on this wise, Say not in your heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: )
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very near to you, in your mouth, and in your heart, that you may do it

sheep I do not really see in proverbs 30:4 that jesus will become the son but proverbs already acknowledge who the son is.

(06-29-2010 02:26 PM)Vic Wrote:
(06-29-2010 10:54 AM)truthbetold Wrote: good answer i agree it is Jesus Christ

just a thought this go good with Daniel cbhapter 7 or was it 9 about him seeing one like the son of man and that his kingdom is eternal right? do i have the right chapter?

Actually what I was pointing to was that in that verse, Jesus is also called ***The mighty God, ***The everlasting Father,*** terms which are not normally just referencing the Son. Here we see everlasting Father but not the phrase, eternal or everlasting Son. THe quesion would be, why not? Why doesn't it say everlasting Son?

in the New testament Jesus is given titles that belong to God the father but the Nt does not hold ever title that belongs to God and i think the question is pretty moot.

I disagree. I think those titles in that list refer to the Son as the verse says, but you cannot find the title of eternal Sonship or everlasting Sonship or Son anywhere in the Scriptures. And I think that the phrase and the concept adds to the Word of God. I might be wrong, but there is no Scripture that states that title. However the Scriptures do show Him as ***The mighty God, ***The everlasting Father,*** . While you might think those titles are moot in the discussion they are the Titles God chose to have listed in the Scriptures which are the standard of belief....or not. All titles and attributes for God can be applied to Christ, but nowhere is the title Eternal Sonship or Eternal Son found. Please provide the exact Scripture that does say that, if I have missed it.

truthbetold · (This post was last modified: 06-29-2010 08:18 PM by truthbetold.)

(06-29-2010 03:36 PM)Vic Wrote:
(06-29-2010 03:13 PM)truthbetold Wrote:
(06-29-2010 11:59 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote:
(06-28-2010 09:34 PM)truthbetold Wrote:
(06-28-2010 09:24 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:
(06-28-2010 06:32 PM)truthbetold Wrote: let me ask you this ok how do you think God refer to jesus before his birth?

Lord

Psa 110:1 The LORD said to my Lord, Sit you at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.

what do you think this verse is referring to?

Proverbs 30:4 (King James Version)

4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

God was prophesying of the Son to come. We know this because John and Paul quotes these verses:

Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaks on this wise, Say not in your heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: )
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very near to you, in your mouth, and in your heart, that you may do it

sheep I do not really see in proverbs 30:4 that jesus will become the son but proverbs already acknowledge who the son is.

(06-29-2010 02:26 PM)Vic Wrote:
(06-29-2010 10:54 AM)truthbetold Wrote: good answer i agree it is Jesus Christ

just a thought this go good with Daniel cbhapter 7 or was it 9 about him seeing one like the son of man and that his kingdom is eternal right? do i have the right chapter?

Actually what I was pointing to was that in that verse, Jesus is also called ***The mighty God, ***The everlasting Father,*** terms which are not normally just referencing the Son. Here we see everlasting Father but not the phrase, eternal or everlasting Son. THe quesion would be, why not? Why doesn't it say everlasting Son?

in the New testament Jesus is given titles that belong to God the father but the Nt does not hold ever title that belongs to God and i think the question is pretty moot.

I disagree. I think those titles in that list refer to the Son as the verse says, but you cannot find the title of eternal Sonship or everlasting Sonship or Son anywhere in the Scriptures. And I think that the phrase and the concept adds to the Word of God. I might be wrong, but there is no Scripture that states that title. However the Scriptures do show Him as ***The mighty God, ***The everlasting Father,*** . While you might think those titles are moot in the discussion they are the Titles God chose to have listed in the Scriptures which are the standard of belief....or not. All titles and attributes for God can be applied to Christ, but nowhere is the title Eternal Sonship or Eternal Son found. Please provide the exact Scripture that does say that, if I have missed it.

does Omnipresence add to the word of God sense the word it self is not there? do you believe God is everywhere? if you do then please prove that with showing one verse that says Omnipresence ok? this sounds like what your trying to force me to do when you ask for an exact verse that says everlasting son.

(06-29-2010 03:36 PM)Vic Wrote:
(06-29-2010 03:13 PM)truthbetold Wrote:
(06-29-2010 11:59 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote:
(06-28-2010 09:34 PM)truthbetold Wrote:
(06-28-2010 09:24 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:
(06-28-2010 06:32 PM)truthbetold Wrote: let me ask you this ok how do you think God refer to jesus before his birth?

Lord

Psa 110:1 The LORD said to my Lord, Sit you at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.

what do you think this verse is referring to?

Proverbs 30:4 (King James Version)

4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

God was prophesying of the Son to come. We know this because John and Paul quotes these verses:

Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaks on this wise, Say not in your heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: )
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very near to you, in your mouth, and in your heart, that you may do it

sheep I do not really see in proverbs 30:4 that jesus will become the son but proverbs already acknowledge who the son is.

(06-29-2010 02:26 PM)Vic Wrote:
(06-29-2010 10:54 AM)truthbetold Wrote: good answer i agree it is Jesus Christ

just a thought this go good with Daniel cbhapter 7 or was it 9 about him seeing one like the son of man and that his kingdom is eternal right? do i have the right chapter?

Actually what I was pointing to was that in that verse, Jesus is also called ***The mighty God, ***The everlasting Father,*** terms which are not normally just referencing the Son. Here we see everlasting Father but not the phrase, eternal or everlasting Son. THe quesion would be, why not? Why doesn't it say everlasting Son?

in the New testament Jesus is given titles that belong to God the father but the Nt does not hold ever title that belongs to God and i think the question is pretty moot.

I disagree. I think those titles in that list refer to the Son as the verse says, but you cannot find the title of eternal Sonship or everlasting Sonship or Son anywhere in the Scriptures. And I think that the phrase and the concept adds to the Word of God. I might be wrong, but there is no Scripture that states that title. However the Scriptures do show Him as ***The mighty God, ***The everlasting Father,*** . While you might think those titles are moot in the discussion they are the Titles God chose to have listed in the Scriptures which are the standard of belief....or not. All titles and attributes for God can be applied to Christ, but nowhere is the title Eternal Sonship or Eternal Son found. Please provide the exact Scripture that does say that, if I have missed it.

i also think it clear at least to me Jesus refers to God as his father even before the world was and The same relationship that describes the son of God now to the father is the same one in John 17:5

***Vic*** · 06-30-2010, 05:20 PM

Quote:does Omnipresence add to the word of God sense the word it self is not there? do you believe God is everywhere? if you do then please prove that with showing one verse that says Omnipresence ok? this sounds like what your trying to force me to do when you ask for an exact verse that says everlasting son.

It is not the same thing at all. I can show verse after verse showing the doctrine that God is everywhere--hence another word for omnipresent. He is omnicient-all knowing, and omnipotent--all powerful; and many many more attributes, characteristics and titles. These can all be proven by the Scriptures. For example

Omnipresent--present everywhere Psalms 139:7-12 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8. If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11. If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. 12. Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. --Jesus is omnipresent with all.
--God is omniscient-all knowing
Psalm 139:2-6; Isaiah 40:13-14

1Ki 8:39 Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;)

1Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. -

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Jesus is omniscient-all knowing

Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Joh 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
Joh 2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Joh 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Job 34:21 For his eyes are upon the ways of man, and he seeth all his goings.
Job 34:22 There is no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.

And so on. Those are merely words that describe...

However, there is a difference between that and what this thread is about and what you are discussing

God is eternal. > Deuteronomy 33:27; Jeremiah 10:10; Psalm 90:2

There is no phrasing that I can see that says that Jesus has/had an eternal sonship. Jesus is God manifest in the flesh and has all attributes of God. The Word was made flesh. It does not say the Son was made flesh. That is the difference. It says Jesus came from the bosom of the Father. He came by the zeal of the Father.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The reality is that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, made flesh, because He is God manifest in the flesh. The scriptures say of His titles He is ***The everlasting Father,*** . It does not say He is the everlasting Son. And you need to ask yourself why. This is not a moot point.

Quote:i also think it clear at least to me Jesus refers to God as his father even before the world was and The same relationship that describes the son of God now to the father is the same one in John 17:5

Of course He prayed that way--He was in the flesh fully man and fully God and the only begotten Son of God. But He is also

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ...Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

But He is also

Colossians 1:12-19 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Philippians 2:6-11 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 20:27-28 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

And the apostles
Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Compare to God's Words in Isaiah which also states that God is the King and Redeemer, which we know is Jesus Christ:
Isa 44:6 Thus said the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

This issue is discussed somewhat in this thread http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=15

We don't have to pretend to understand all the mysteries about God. We just have to know who He is according to the Scriptures and who Christ is. Was Jesus manifest in the flesh for all eternity. Then it changes the Truth of God saying...this day I have begotten thee. And it changes the meaning of 'unto you a child is given", and Jesus being referred to as the "everlasting Father". Was Jesus fully man and fully God for all eternity? Or does it mean when He was begotten through Mary, that was the beginning of the Word being made flesh?

truthbetold · (This post was last modified: 06-30-2010 11:50 PM by truthbetold.)

It is not the same thing at all. I can show verse after verse showing the doctrine that God is everywhere--hence another word for omnipresent. He is omnicient-all knowing, and omnipotent--all powerful; and many many more attributes, characteristics and titles. These can all be proven by the Scriptures. For example

Omnipresent--present everywhere Psalms 139:7-12 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8. If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11. If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. 12. Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. --Jesus is omnipresent with all.
--God is omniscient-all knowing
Psalm 139:2-6; Isaiah 40:13-14

1Ki 8:39 Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;)

1Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. -

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Jesus is omniscient-all knowing

Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Joh 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
Joh 2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Joh 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Job 34:21 For his eyes are upon the ways of man, and he seeth all his goings.
Job 34:22 There is no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.

And so on. Those are merely words that describe...

However, there is a difference between that and what this thread is about and what you are discussing

God is eternal. > Deuteronomy 33:27; Jeremiah 10:10; Psalm 90:2

There is no phrasing that I can see that says that Jesus has/had an eternal sonship. Jesus is God manifest in the flesh and has all attributes of God. The Word was made flesh. It does not say the Son was made flesh. That is the difference. It says Jesus came from the bosom of the Father. He came by the zeal of the Father.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The reality is that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, made flesh, because He is God manifest in the flesh. The scriptures say of His titles He is ***The everlasting Father,*** . It does not say He is the everlasting Son. And you need to ask yourself why. This is not a moot point.

actually your asking for an EXACT verse that says everlasting son and all those verses i agree with you but there not one title in there that says God is Omnipresence in the exact words and all you believe there are concepts that prove God is everywhere so do I believe there are concepts that Jesus is always the Son

There is no phrasing that I can see that says that Jesus has/had an eternal sonship. Jesus is God manifest in the flesh and has all attributes of God. The Word was made flesh. It does not say the Son was made flesh. That is the difference. It says Jesus came from the bosom of the Father. He came by the zeal of the Father.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The reality is that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, made flesh, because He is God manifest in the flesh. The scriptures say of His titles He is ***The everlasting Father,*** . It does not say He is the everlasting Son. And you need to ask yourself why. This is not a moot point.
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again i disagree proverbs ask us what is his son name? not what will be his name and John tells us whoever deny Jesus Christ came in the flesh is antichrist which I know jesus to be the Son and always the son.

Daniel usage The title son of Man which means an off spring of mankind in his writings when he said i saw one like The son of man but even thou Jesus was not in the flesh yet and even Daniel says his kingdom is everlasting and receives worship which we know is Jesus, so we do see an title given to jesus when he was growing up even being used in Ot times to him.

I think the thing is we both disagree with each other on the format of the topic concepts of jesus always being the son.

The majority of your verse dealt with Jesus being God which I agree

(06-30-2010 05:20 PM)Vic Wrote:
Quote:does Omnipresence add to the word of God sense the word it self is not there? do you believe God is everywhere? if you do then please prove that with showing one verse that says Omnipresence ok? this sounds like what your trying to force me to do when you ask for an exact verse that says everlasting son.

It is not the same thing at all. I can show verse after verse showing the doctrine that God is everywhere--hence another word for omnipresent. He is omnicient-all knowing, and omnipotent--all powerful; and many many more attributes, characteristics and titles. These can all be proven by the Scriptures. For example

Omnipresent--present everywhere Psalms 139:7-12 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8. If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11. If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. 12. Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. --Jesus is omnipresent with all.
--God is omniscient-all knowing
Psalm 139:2-6; Isaiah 40:13-14

1Ki 8:39 Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;)

1Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. -

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Jesus is omniscient-all knowing

Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Joh 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
Joh 2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Joh 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Job 34:21 For his eyes are upon the ways of man, and he seeth all his goings.
Job 34:22 There is no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.

And so on. Those are merely words that describe...

However, there is a difference between that and what this thread is about and what you are discussing

God is eternal. > Deuteronomy 33:27; Jeremiah 10:10; Psalm 90:2

There is no phrasing that I can see that says that Jesus has/had an eternal sonship. Jesus is God manifest in the flesh and has all attributes of God. The Word was made flesh. It does not say the Son was made flesh. That is the difference. It says Jesus came from the bosom of the Father. He came by the zeal of the Father.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The reality is that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, made flesh, because He is God manifest in the flesh. The scriptures say of His titles He is ***The everlasting Father,*** . It does not say He is the everlasting Son. And you need to ask yourself why. This is not a moot point.

Quote:i also think it clear at least to me Jesus refers to God as his father even before the world was and The same relationship that describes the son of God now to the father is the same one in John 17:5

Of course He prayed that way--He was in the flesh fully man and fully God and the only begotten Son of God. But He is also

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ...Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

But He is also

Colossians 1:12-19 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Philippians 2:6-11 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 20:27-28 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

And the apostles
Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Compare to God's Words in Isaiah which also states that God is the King and Redeemer, which we know is Jesus Christ:
Isa 44:6 Thus said the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

This issue is discussed somewhat in this thread http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=15

We don't have to pretend to understand all the mysteries about God. We just have to know who He is according to the Scriptures and who Christ is. Was Jesus manifest in the flesh for all eternity. Then it changes the Truth of God saying...this day I have begotten thee. And it changes the meaning of 'unto you a child is given", and Jesus being referred to as the "everlasting Father". Was Jesus fully man and fully God for all eternity? Or does it mean when He was begotten through Mary, that was the beginning of the Word being made flesh?

also paul tells us the lamb has been slain before the foundation of the world which is not to mean literal that jesus died during that time but God had for acknowledgment of the sin to come and that he knew he would have the send the son to save us but also we should added The lamb of God is also an title that Jesus got during his lifetime on earth but yet paul calls Jesus this even before the world.

I know this does not prove 100% my view but it is clear that there are clear titles that have a connection to jesus life being used even before his birth or being used in the past tense.