Threaded Mode | Linear Mode

sheep wrecked · 05-14-2009, 05:15 PM

(05-14-2009 04:50 PM)Strefanash Wrote: The phrase ternal son may not appear in the Bible, but neither does the term trinity, and we would all stand condemned for denying the Trinity.

To say Jesus was God before the Incarnation but not the Son before it is to separate His Sonship from His divinity. This seems absurd. It also seems that to deny the sonship is to undercut the Divinity. John Chap1, in the beginning was the word . . and the word became flesh seems to me to establish that it was the Son of God who created the world

He did not have a human nature before the incarnation? and how do you define human nature?

These are questions we can only answer if we understand the very mystery of the Incarnation. Something none can do

But again, are you not uneasy pondering what may be the irrelevant? Dont the questions themselves stem from a Western rationalist mindset rather than from faith? I can be sure that while the Church Councils wrangled over all manner of minutiae the Apostles never considered them, what the knew from experience and scripture was enough.

As I said I tend to the eternal sonship but if it is not baldly stated and it is about the mystery of the Incarnation and the Trinity then the answer is beyond our ken

My answer would be that defining God with humanistic terminology always runs into brick walls. Is God triune, yes, Biblically. Is God a "trinity"? man's definition. The OT does not speak of the Son of God, only the NT declares His Sonship. Again, it's man's definition of the Sonship that bothers me in the "Eternal Sonship" doctrine - it cannot be found in Scripture.

So there is my 2c2

sheep wrecked · 05-14-2009, 05:37 PM

If one looks at how the Bible defines the Sonship of Christ - the incarnation of Mary is the key. The Holy Spirit overshadowed her and she conceived and brought forth the Son of God. You can't get much clearer than that.

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, The Holy Ghost shall come on you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.

~~LindaR~~ · (This post was last modified: 06-28-2010 10:10 AM by sheep wrecked.)

Here is an excellent article "The Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal, only begotten Son of God" by Will Kinney. The article is medium long (too long to post), but it's a good one:

link deleted

***Vic*** · 08-17-2009, 03:24 PM

I think some verses are forgotten with reference to the pre-existence of Christ. I love these verses. The day that God said, this day I have begotten you, I believe needs to also be kept in context of these verses.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [Word > logos]

Strong's > Word >G3056
λόγος
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1Jn 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Strong's > Son G5207
υἱός
uihos
hwee-os'
Apparently a primary word; a “son” (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figurative kinship: - child, foal, son.

truthbetold · (This post was last modified: 06-27-2010 09:26 PM by truthbetold.)

I think Jesus was The angel of the Lord in the Ot because usually people saw a physical manifestation and once we hit the NT The angel of the Lord drops out of picture

I think this question fits this thread did Jesus always have the same relationship with the father before the world was and if so then how is not always the son?

Rose of Shushan · (This post was last modified: 06-27-2010 09:31 PM by Rose of Shushan.)

Well here are some verses where the angel of the Lord is still in the picture Biggrin

Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

Luk 2:8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
Luk 2:9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Mat 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

There are more verses which have an angel of the Lord in NT but we get the picture.

truthbetold · 06-27-2010, 09:31 PM

if we read john 17:5 jesus acknowledge God as his father before the world was

Rose of Shushan · 06-27-2010, 09:40 PM

Quote:if we read john 17:5 jesus acknowledge God as his father before the world was

I am not quite understanding how that relates to the angel of the Lord thing.

truthbetold · (This post was last modified: 06-27-2010 10:13 PM by truthbetold.)

(06-27-2010 09:30 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: Well here are some verses where the angel of the Lord is still in the picture

Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

Luk 2:8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
Luk 2:9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Mat 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

There are more verses which have an angel of the Lord in NT but we get the picture.

I do not believe matthew 1:24 is using The angel of the lord in the same way in the ot but just in formal way like The angel told me this etc.. as for the rest the profix The is not there and there is a different between The angel of the Lord and an angel of the Lord.

(06-27-2010 09:40 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:
Quote:if we read john 17:5 jesus acknowledge God as his father before the world was

I am not quite understanding how that relates to the angel of the Lord thing.

that post had to do with what I believe The same relationship that he has with the father which why he is the Son is being express even before this world was.

I saw that you were using Kjv as it reads The angel but many others read an angel and I thought sometime ago I remember doing some reading the greek does not hold the prefix The in the Nt but i think that a topic for different thread we can discussion this more if you are allowed to make a thread caz I'm not. I do not want to take this thread to a different discussion.

sorry for my post about the angel of the lord in the beginning it seems to start an different discussion and if anyone wants to respond about it pm me.

sheep wrecked · (This post was last modified: 06-28-2010 10:30 AM by sheep wrecked.)

(06-27-2010 09:43 PM)truthbetold Wrote: I do not believe matthew 1:24 is using The angel of the lord in the same way in the ot but just in formal way like The angel told me this etc.. as for the rest the profix The is not there and there is a different between The angel of the Lord and an angel of the Lord.

if we read john 17:5 jesus acknowledge God as his father before the world was

I am not sure that verse "proves" Jesus is the "Eternal Son". Is Jesus, God? Yes - that makes Him pre-existant.

Quote:I saw that you were using Kjv as it reads The angel but many others read an angel and I thought sometime ago I remember doing some reading the greek does not hold the prefix The in the Nt but i think that a topic for different thread we can discussion this more if you are allowed to make a thread caz I'm not. I do not want to take this thread to a different discussion.
sorry for my post about the angel of the lord in the beginning it seems to start an different discussion and if anyone wants to respond about it pm me.

The Greek uses "the", but it's not a prefix. The KJ is correct. Not sure of your sources?