Doctrine of the Eternal Sonship of Christ

[truthbetold]

(06-28-2010 10:23 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(06-27-2010 09:43 PM)truthbetold Wrote:  I do not believe matthew 1:24 is using The angel of the lord in the same way in the ot but just in formal way like The angel told me this etc.. as for the rest the profix The is not there and there is a different between The angel of the Lord and an angel of the Lord.

if we read john 17:5 jesus acknowledge God as his father before the world was

I am not sure that verse "proves" Jesus is the "Eternal Son". Is Jesus, God? Yes - that makes Him pre-existant.

Quote:I saw that you were using Kjv as it reads The angel but many others read an angel and I thought sometime ago I remember doing some reading the greek does not hold the prefix The in the Nt but i think that a topic for different thread we can discussion this more if you are allowed to make a thread caz I'm not. I do not want to take this thread to a different discussion.
sorry for my post about the angel of the lord in the beginning it seems to start an different discussion and if anyone wants to respond about it pm me.

The Greek uses "the", but it's not a prefix. The KJ is correct. Not sure of your sources?

Umm are you saying that it not being used in the same way as The in the ot and with kjv in the new as to mean the Ot has prrfix THE while kjv does not?


I am not sure that verse "proves" Jesus is the "Eternal Son". Is Jesus, God? Yes - that makes Him pre-existant.


I think in quite clear in john 17:5 as the Jesus calls the first person of the trinity father and then ask him to glorify himself with him before the world was. it seems to me the father and son relationship did not have a beginning in the NT it just that when the time came that it was explained.

what you think?

[sheep wrecked]

(06-28-2010 01:35 PM)truthbetold Wrote:  I think in quite clear in john 17:5 as the Jesus calls the first person of the trinity father and then ask him to glorify himself with him before the world was. it seems to me the father and son relationship did not have a beginning in the NT it just that when the time came that it was explained.

what you think?

where is "the first person of the trinity" found in the Bible? How do explain God saying that the Son is begotten at a specific point?

Psa 2:7 I will declare [future tense]the decree: the LORD has said to me, You are my Son; this day have I begotten you.

[truthbetold]

(06-28-2010 03:45 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(06-28-2010 01:35 PM)truthbetold Wrote:  I think in quite clear in john 17:5 as the Jesus calls the first person of the trinity father and then ask him to glorify himself with him before the world was. it seems to me the father and son relationship did not have a beginning in the NT it just that when the time came that it was explained.

what you think?

where is "the first person of the trinity" found in the Bible? How do explain God saying that the Son is begotten at a specific point?

Psa 2:7 I will declare [future tense]the decree: the LORD has said to me, You are my Son; this day have I begotten you.

where is the first person of the trinity found in the bible? they are many many verses i can gave you, every book of the OT give reference to The father but they may not say The word father it self but God or The Lord or Almighty same thing.

i do not see how your verse that you quote peove Jesus became the son in certain time if you were to read john 3;16 The term begotten in greek is genos driven from gignesthai/ginomai and genno from gennasthai and it deals not with begetting but with existence.


forgive me if this is hard to understand i have a link about this information but cant post it and a book but it would take forever to write everything that it deals with begotten

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(06-28-2010 03:45 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(06-28-2010 01:35 PM)truthbetold Wrote:  I think in quite clear in john 17:5 as the Jesus calls the first person of the trinity father and then ask him to glorify himself with him before the world was. it seems to me the father and son relationship did not have a beginning in the NT it just that when the time came that it was explained.

what you think?

where is "the first person of the trinity" found in the Bible? How do explain God saying that the Son is begotten at a specific point?

Psa 2:7 I will declare [future tense]the decree: the LORD has said to me, You are my Son; this day have I begotten you.

if we joh 3:17 an match it up with john 6;38-41 the son was sent to this world and Jesus says for i have came down from heaven but not to do my own will.

i tend to see jesus alwasy being the Son and that explains why the verse says the Son was sent to this world so he had to exist prior to the incarnation as being the son and jesus said i came from down from heaven not do my own will shows his relationship with The Father that he not the one and same person as in the Jesus is the father but jesus has a father.

[sheep wrecked]

(06-28-2010 04:43 PM)truthbetold Wrote:  where is the first person of the trinity found in the bible? they are many many verses i can gave you, every book of the OT give reference to The father but they may not say The word father it self but God or The Lord or Almighty same thing.

The phrase "first person of the trinity" does not appear in the text. The phrase or term was conceived by man to delegate to God a particular line of thought because the Godhead is a mystery.

Quote:i do not see how your verse that you quote peove Jesus became the son in certain time if you were to read john 3;16 The term begotten in greek is genos driven from gignesthai/ginomai and genno from gennasthai and it deals not with begetting but with existence.

The implication is that Jesus became the only Begotten Son, so therefore His role as Son was to come to earth to be the Savior. There are no texts that show His Sonship before He was born a baby. Only the prophecy, which is why He was called the son of David in the OT.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

He was begotten of the Father.

G3439 - begotten
μονογενής
monogenēs
Thayer Definition:
1) single of its kind, only
1a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
1b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3441 and G1096


G1096
γίνομαι
ginomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
2a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
3a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made
Part of Speech: verb

Quote:if we joh 3:17 an match it up with john 6;38-41 the son was sent to this world and Jesus says for i have came down from heaven but not to do my own will.

i tend to see jesus alwasy being the Son and that explains why the verse says the Son was sent to this world so he had to exist prior to the incarnation as being the son and jesus said i came from down from heaven not do my own will shows his relationship with The Father that he not the one and same person as in the Jesus is the father but jesus has a father.

1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Joh 1:18 No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

Jesus was distinct - God, yet manifest in the flesh. The Sonship was His earthly body - a position that He took to be the pure, blameless, and sinless sacrifice for sin.

[Vic]

I am going to throw in a verse or two to the mix.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, ***The everlasting Father,*** The Prince of Peace. 7. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Isaiah 40:10-11 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. 11. He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Ezekiel 34:11-12 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. 12. As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

Ezekiel 34:15-17 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD. 16. I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Ezekiel 34:17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

Matthew 25:31-34 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

[truthbetold]

(06-28-2010 05:25 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(06-28-2010 04:43 PM)truthbetold Wrote:  where is the first person of the trinity found in the bible? they are many many verses i can gave you, every book of the OT give reference to The father but they may not say The word father it self but God or The Lord or Almighty same thing.

The phrase "first person of the trinity" does not appear in the text. The phrase or term was conceived by man to delegate to God a particular line of thought because the Godhead is a mystery.

Quote:i do not see how your verse that you quote peove Jesus became the son in certain time if you were to read john 3;16 The term begotten in greek is genos driven from gignesthai/ginomai and genno from gennasthai and it deals not with begetting but with existence.

The implication is that Jesus became the only Begotten Son, so therefore His role as Son was to come to earth to be the Savior. There are no texts that show His Sonship before He was born a baby. Only the prophecy, which is why He was called the son of David in the OT.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

He was begotten of the Father.

G3439 - begotten
μονογενής
monogenēs
Thayer Definition:
1) single of its kind, only
1a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
1b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3441 and G1096


G1096
γίνομαι
ginomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
2a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
3a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made
Part of Speech: verb

Quote:if we joh 3:17 an match it up with john 6;38-41 the son was sent to this world and Jesus says for i have came down from heaven but not to do my own will.

i tend to see jesus alwasy being the Son and that explains why the verse says the Son was sent to this world so he had to exist prior to the incarnation as being the son and jesus said i came from down from heaven not do my own will shows his relationship with The Father that he not the one and same person as in the Jesus is the father but jesus has a father.

1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Joh 1:18 No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

Jesus was distinct - God, yet manifest in the flesh. The Sonship was His earthly body - a position that He took to be the pure, blameless, and sinless sacrifice for sin.

The implication is that Jesus became the only Begotten Son, so therefore His role as Son was to come to earth to be the Savior. There are no texts that show His Sonship before He was born a baby. Only the prophecy, which is why He was called the son of David in the OT

i disagree again john 17:5 Jesus own words show that he consider God his father before the world was.

Sheep again the terms deal with existences and monogenes is a relational term match John 3:16 with Genesis 17;19-21 for God Covenant would be monogenes son isaac, not with his first born ishmael and Jesus is the only son of God that would be given for the New covenant even thou we are considers sons of God to.

Jesus is the only begotten in relational terms to appear on stage as the Son of God to be the only redeemer not that this is when he gain his title as Son.

Jesus was distinct - God, yet manifest in the flesh. The Sonship was His earthly body - a position that He took to be the pure, blameless, and sinless sacrifice for sin.

let me ask you this ok how do you think God refer to jesus before his birth?

[sheep wrecked]

(06-28-2010 06:32 PM)truthbetold Wrote:  let me ask you this ok how do you think God refer to jesus before his birth?

Lord

Psa 110:1 The LORD said to my Lord, Sit you at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.

[truthbetold]

(06-28-2010 09:24 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(06-28-2010 06:32 PM)truthbetold Wrote:  let me ask you this ok how do you think God refer to jesus before his birth?

Lord

Psa 110:1 The LORD said to my Lord, Sit you at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.

what do you think this verse is referring to?

Proverbs 30:4 (King James Version)

4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

[Vic]

(06-28-2010 09:34 PM)truthbetold Wrote:  

(06-28-2010 09:24 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(06-28-2010 06:32 PM)truthbetold Wrote:  let me ask you this ok how do you think God refer to jesus before his birth?

Lord

Psa 110:1 The LORD said to my Lord, Sit you at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.

what do you think this verse is referring to?

Proverbs 30:4 (King James Version)

4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, ***The mighty God, ***The everlasting Father,*** The Prince of Peace. ***7. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

[truthbetold]

(06-28-2010 11:41 PM)Vic Wrote:  

(06-28-2010 09:34 PM)truthbetold Wrote:  

(06-28-2010 09:24 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(06-28-2010 06:32 PM)truthbetold Wrote:  let me ask you this ok how do you think God refer to jesus before his birth?

Lord

Psa 110:1 The LORD said to my Lord, Sit you at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.

what do you think this verse is referring to?

Proverbs 30:4 (King James Version)

4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, ***The mighty God, ***The everlasting Father,*** The Prince of Peace. ***7. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

good answer i agree it is Jesus Christ

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(06-28-2010 11:41 PM)Vic Wrote:  

(06-28-2010 09:34 PM)truthbetold Wrote:  

(06-28-2010 09:24 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(06-28-2010 06:32 PM)truthbetold Wrote:  let me ask you this ok how do you think God refer to jesus before his birth?

Lord

Psa 110:1 The LORD said to my Lord, Sit you at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.

what do you think this verse is referring to?

Proverbs 30:4 (King James Version)

4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, ***The mighty God, ***The everlasting Father,*** The Prince of Peace. ***7. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

just a thought this go good with Daniel cbhapter 7 or was it 9 about him seeing one like the son of man and that his kingdom is eternal right? do i have the right chapter?