1st Timer

[golfun]

I have been reading various articles on your site for the past several months. Got interested because a dear family member has become involved with the Hebraic Roots movement & I knew very little of it. Your straightforward Biblocentric analysis has been very helpful. Yet with all the reading, I am struggling to know how to deal with the whole thing. What concerns me most, & I am hoping someone might reassure me, would be to know that this emphasis on recovering the 'original' Jewishness, observing Torah, preferring Hebrew over Greek, etc., has not become their method of salvation. How would these folks say a person is made righteous. Do they believe the truth of I Cor. 15:3,4? I so want to hear you say they are most likely saved, just misled. If this is not so, I pray for God's patience & peace as I can not bear the thought we would not spend eternity together.

I feel very confident in my knowledge of Scripture, some biblical language, systematics, but my observation is that this is not very productive when talking with them. There are some presuppostions, premises that they must start with...basically denigrating the NT and the Greek text in favor of the Hebrew language. There is this sort of elitism that accompanies their arguments, or whatever you want to call it. 'If you knew what the Jewish mind was at that time you would understand, etc.' ..blah, blah. Seems to me once you accept that premise, down the rabbit hole you go. Where do they get off forcing that method of interpretation. Isn't challenging the hermeneutic the first thing that should be challenged. My observation is that they don't care to spend much time in the NT because (1) they don't know it, and (2) without spinning it with 'jewishness', they can't support there religious practices.

What causes a person to jump in this pool? Especially when they have been raised in very traditional, evangelical settings. I am very conflicted about how to deal with this because I love them so deeply. God has done a wonderful work bringing them back to our family after many years. I don't want to do anything to wreck it. I hate the feeling that under the surface we are armed continually for debate...Seeing who knows more than the other guy. I don't need to win a debate. What I want them to know is the centrality of Jesus....only!

Sorry to ramble on this 1st post. I knew this would happen, but, oh well. Appreciate any wisdom that you may have to impart, or forums you can reference that would give me direction.

Blessings

P.S. They get their study material from 'Firstfruits of Zion'. Know anything about it?

[LindaR]

golfun!

This is a great forum and I am sure you will love the fellowship here.

I came out of the Hebrew Roots/Messianic movement...my testimony is posted here (Jesus Is My Sabbath)

Good to have you here!

[4given]

Golfun

Good to have you join with us.

I joined this forum so that I could learn from members here and share what I have found with others. I too knew very little about it but I'm learning fast.

I don't know enough yet to be able to advise you with your queries but many here will be able to.

[Vic]

golfun,

So glad you decided to post and share your concerns.

It would be nice to give you a firm answer, that yes, those who enter HR are saved and love and know the Lord Jesus Christ. Many who enter the movement, don't really Him or the Scriptures which is why they search for other methods to experience and 'be closer'. Others feel they are clearly being given the truth for the first time. Others say, after they leave the movement, they totally lost connection with Jesus Christ and were set adrift spiritually and felt totally lost.

Still others will move fully away from the truth of the NT, Jesus Christ and anything connected and will move fully into Judaism.

You are right in that it is a downward spiral. The foundation of believing the truth of the NT is dismantled, and along with that, the Jesus we know, is viewed as pagan. Therefore, all that we believe about Him is thrust into the category of falsehood. Some will maintain they have the true Messiah and call that other him by names which are made up.

The bottom line is, you need to understand the arguments, and the pet verses they cling to, and you need to know how to consistantly show the truth, factually and scripturally.

I do believe you need to remove the emotional connection in a sense, and almost be clinical in any discussions you might have with family. Otherwise the emotions will direct rather than the needed refutation with the facts, linguistics, and most importantly, Scripture-which will be argued as being pagan, depending where they are at. You need to go in as you are led, knowing it really is a spiritual battle, because depending where they are at, many do come under another spirit, another gospel and another Jesus-which they will never call Jesus and will despise Christ and those who follow HIm.

And then you dig in and refute, and refute again, as you are given opportunity. Many will fight tooth and nail, but God can and does deliver many from it. I believe in many cases, they have to either have known Christ first, or, they truly do desire the Truth, which may sound weird, but. Many who get lost in it, are those who have belonged to Christ, and they have strayed and gotten pretty messed up. God is faithful. But it can take a long time.

Anyway, glad you joined and hope we can all discuss and edify one another.

[Anddra]

Praying for you and your family member, golfun.

:praying:

[golfun]

(04-18-2009 10:46 AM)Vic Wrote:   golfun,

So glad you decided to post and share your concerns.

It would be nice to give you a firm answer, that yes, those who enter HR are saved and love and know the Lord Jesus Christ. Many who enter the movement, don't really Him or the Scriptures which is why they search for other methods to experience and 'be closer'. Others feel they are clearly being given the truth for the first time. Others say, after they leave the movement, they totally lost connection with Jesus Christ and were set adrift spiritually and felt totally lost.

Still others will move fully away from the truth of the NT, Jesus Christ and anything connected and will move fully into Judaism.

You are right in that it is a downward spiral. The foundation of believing the truth of the NT is dismantled, and along with that, the Jesus we know, is viewed as pagan. Therefore, all that we believe about Him is thrust into the category of falsehood. Some will maintain they have the true Messiah and call that other him by names which are made up.

The bottom line is, you need to understand the arguments, and the pet verses they cling to, and you need to know how to consistantly show the truth, factually and scripturally.

I do believe you need to remove the emotional connection in a sense, and almost be clinical in any discussions you might have with family. Otherwise the emotions will direct rather than the needed refutation with the facts, linguistics, and most importantly, Scripture-which will be argued as being pagan, depending where they are at. You need to go in as you are led, knowing it really is a spiritual battle, because depending where they are at, many do come under another spirit, another gospel and another Jesus-which they will never call Jesus and will despise Christ and those who follow HIm.

And then you dig in and refute, and refute again, as you are given opportunity. Many will fight tooth and nail, but God can and does deliver many from it. I believe in many cases, they have to either have known Christ first, or, they truly do desire the Truth, which may sound weird, but. Many who get lost in it, are those who have belonged to Christ, and they have strayed and gotten pretty messed up. God is faithful. But it can take a long time.

Anyway, glad you joined and hope we can all discuss and edify one another.

Thanks for your candor. Sort of thought you might give me a good dose of reality. Better get used to it...right. I have been treading lightly around the HR subject, but I know they want to share their passion. Just don't think they will like mine too much. I'll start poking around the forums & see if I can get educated. Do you believe there is any wisdom in studying the material these various groups publish. i.e. Firstfruits of Zion, etc?

[sheep wrecked]

Golfun! It's great to have you join us! coolsign

My heart really goes out to you. Having been deeply entrenched in the Messianic Hebrew Roots movement, I totally compute with the feeling of helplessness in dealing with your family who is involved in it.

I was also raised in a traditional evangelical denomination and stayed there for 46 years. I got involved in another movement for 7 years before I got into messy - so your question about how people get into it struck a chord. I could write pages

To save time, I have my testimony posted on my blog - My Testimony, Ancient Paths - that will give you a pretty good idea.

http://fortheloveoftruth.wordpress.com/ancient-paths/

I also wrote a couple of articles as blog posts having to do with the Hebraic mindset which is how I got pulled into messy as well.

http://fortheloveoftruth.wordpress.com/2...raic-hook/

http://fortheloveoftruth.wordpress.com/2...rspective/

All that aside, I pray this forum is a great help to you. Please do not hesitate to ask questions, but please look over the Messianic Section - there is tons of info there

Again - to the forum and make yourself at home

[Vic]

(04-18-2009 06:35 PM)golfun Wrote:  Thanks for your candor. Sort of thought you might give me a good dose of reality. Better get used to it...right. I have been treading lightly around the HR subject, but I know they want to share their passion. Just don't think they will like mine too much. I'll start poking around the forums & see if I can get educated. Do you believe there is any wisdom in studying the material these various groups publish. i.e. Firstfruits of Zion, etc?

I think you might be better served time wise reading what we have on the forum and on the website and Sheeps blog. Any information you need or have questions about, why not start a thread-so others are helped also. I have researched so much including FFOZ, we can give you direct quotes with links which you can use, and then see for yourself. It will save a lot of time.

I know it's difficult. I have heard from so many in similar situations over the years. You need to learn the issues, and then go with confidence of the Scriptures and Truth. It really won't be easy to discuss because they are convinced they have truth and you are lost to paganism--if they are that far in yet. An option to start with might be to write things and send by email. It removes the tension and emotions that will be at play. Just some ideas.