Introducing myself . . . JGIG

[YYZ Skinhead]

Wow...and I thought I was the angriest and most sarcastic individual on this forum.

[sheep wrecked]

(09-03-2010 02:33 PM)Softim Wrote:  Well JGIG either you are a law-keeper ( obey the commandments of God) Or a law breaker--a continuous sinner. I choose to obey God.

Christians are obedient to the Law of God. Because you want to keep the Mosaic Law or at least say you do, but can't, makes you the law breaker.

Quote:Of course you are the only one that's infallible.

Apparently, Hebrew Roots think they are the ones who are infallible, as they believe they have found the "truth" hidden for the last 2000 yrs that every other Christian who does not keep Torah missed out on.

Quote:And you have 30,000 + Christian denominations all claiming they have it right!

And your point is? The Bible is not the 30,000+ denominations who claim they are right. The Bible is the final answer, not man.

Quote:Yeah well you can count on God to be constant, for instances 16 'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.' (Exo 31:16 NAS) PS it's one of the Ten commandments.
The RCC changed the Sabbath not God. The rest of the festivals are God's appointed times, God makes an appointment and I am going to show up.

The key words are "sons of Israel" referring to the physical nation of Israel, not Gentiles and those in the New Covenant. It was a perpetual covenant IF Israel obeyed. They did not and the covenant was broken forever. A new law was forth coming. The prophets foretold of this.

The RCC did not change the sabbath. Christians worshiped on Sundays to honor the resurrection of Christ. Because the RCC made it "law" was based on a tradition for 300 years.

The feasts *were* God's appointed times. They were a heavenly pattern of what was to come in Christ. Once Jesus came and was sacrificed and rose again, the feasts no longer had any benefit [His death completely fulfilled ALL of them per Luke 24]. If one keeps the feasts today, a sin sacrifice is required - do you have an altar in your back yard?

Quote:
It's not a concept at all it's a fact.

au contraire. The New Covenant is not a "renewed one". Neither the Hebrew nor the Greek can remotely be translated that way. It is simply a wanna be interpretation in order to confirm that one must keep the Mosaic Law. Hebrew Roots is real good at twisting Scripture to make it conform to their errors.

Quote:
Ditto with Christianity with all their sects, false teachers, cults etc.

She is not discussing Christianity, but Hebrew Roots. Christianity is besides the point, a straw man.

Quote:And my goal is to refute you.

So far there is nothing that you have presented that has not already been refuted soundly. Good luck with that.

Quote:Well you would be wrong.

You already stated quite strongly and rudely that those who do not keep the Mosaic Law are "lawless". Have you now changed your position on that?

Quote:Yes look it up, it's a matter of cleanliness.

Actually, Niddah is more than that. It's also about separation, purification and sacrifice - something that is completely impossible to adhere to in today's culture. But perhaps you are not as "up" on the Law as you think.

Quote:
Lets stop right here, it's referred to in Scripture as the law of Moses but it is God's Laws not something made up by Moses.

God's Law and the Mosaic Law are two different things. The Mosaic Law was the covenant between Israel and God. God's Laws are not completely included in the Mosaic Law. You seem to be a bit confused.

Quote:Good for you! However nobody in my Congreation or does the largest Messianic organization force anyone to be circumcised.

The "largest" Messianic organization does not speak for the 100s of 1000s in Hebrew Roots. It is just not fringe groups that "re-circumcise", it is general practice within the movement. You need to catch up to speed on this stuff.

Quote:The people Paul is referring to with the term "Judaizer" was someone who preaches that one must be a Jew to be saved, the term Judaizer today however is used by those that insists that we know longer have to follow the Commandments of God.

A Judaizer is a person who lives like a Jew but are not aka pretend to be Jews. Like those in Hebrew Roots.

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews [G2450]?

G2450
Ἰουδαΐ́ζω
Ioudaizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to adopt Jewish customs and rites, imitate the Jews, Judaise
1a) one who observes the ritual law of the Jews

Quote: Nonsense.

Then you have not done your "homework". Most Hebrew Roots/Netzarim teachings are based in Talmudism.

Quote:Just like some Christian denominations follow and practice pagan holidays, Gnostic practices, ect.

Nice job of refuting the Talmudic and kabbalistic influences in HR. We are not speaking about Christianity. You are side tracking.

Quote:On the other hand, those who are Jewish who are Christians have no problem taking on the "label" of Christian, as they are followers of Jesus Christ. Many continue in the traditions of their heritage of Feast and Sabbath keeping - but not because they think they are still commanded to do so.

The commandments of God are not Traditions they are requirements for Holiness. [/quote]

The feasts are kept by the traditions of the Talmud, not by Biblical mandates, not according to Torah. It is impossible to keep them. There is no point to keep them. They have been fulfilled in Christ.

Quote:A misnomer either you are a messianic believer or a christian there is no such thing as a "Christain Jew"

That depends on what segment of culture you are coming from. If one is a blood Jew and converts to Christianity, they are a Christian Jew. If one is a Jew according to Judaism [Rabbinical Talmudism] then one is no longer a Jew if one converts to Christianity. How kosher of you to side with Judaism instead of those Jews who have come to Christ.

Quote:
No body is fully under the New Covenant, and all covenants God made with men are still valid.

You may want to double check the New Testament. The New Covenant is redemption in the blood of Christ. He is the New Covenant and all who are in Him are in that covenant. All OT covenants have been fulfilled in Christ.

Quote:
Moses did not give us the Law God did, and the word properly translated means instructions not Law. Tell me JGIG is Yeshua a different God ? How many gods are there ?

Torah means "Law", unless you would like to argue the point with the millions of Jews who have existed since Mt Sinai and call it "The Law". And the 5 million today who speak Hebrew.

Quote:LOL that's exactly what it is taken as. Discernment ? My discernment tells me the direct opposite of yours.

Apparently, your discernment needs a little work. You are denying the New Covenant in Christ.

Quote:Yeah from anti-HRM sites !

Actually, HRM can be proved wrong by Scripture and by the facts. Don't let that trouble you though

Quote:
30,000 + denominations is hardly a qualifier for Christianity, and the fact that the RCC is the founder of Christianity, in fact find Christianity defined in Scripture. The word doesn't even appear in it.

The RCC did not found Christianity. You have been listening to your TOGT [teachers of greater truth] again. Christians follow Jesus Christ and the written Word of God. Christianity was based on Jesus Christ, the Chief CornerStone, the prophets and apostles. Christianity is simply a belief system taken from the word Christian, which appears 2 times in the NT.

Renewed Covenant does not appear in either the Hebrew or the Greek. Take the beam out of your own eye before tying to take the splinter out of another's.

Quote:Oh I believe you are sincere but sincerely wrong....just like poor Uzzah who although was sincere he was sincerely wrong.
6 But when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen nearly upset it.
7 And the anger of the LORD burned against Uzzah, and God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there by the ark of God.
(2Sa 6:6-7 NAS)

You remind me of what Jesus said:

Joh 16:2 . . . yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Your attitude needs adjusting. Take heed.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

[Mary]

"Oh I believe you are sincere but sincerely wrong....just like poor Uzzah who although was sincere he was sincerely wrong.
6 But when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen nearly upset it.
7 And the anger of the LORD burned against Uzzah, and God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there by the ark of God.
(2Sa 6:6-7 NAS)"

I don't think that it was irreverence that cost Uzzah his life. I think that he, as the son of Abinadab in whose house the ark had been kept, thought that he was responsible for the ark. He did not trust that God would take care of the ark.
I think that HRM and Messianics are hanging on to the Old Covenant and not trusting God about the New Covenant, about Jesus Christ.

[JGIG]

Hey there, softim!

So, you couldn't go more than 6 or 7 posts on CARM without getting suspended/banned (what, have you been booted 3 or 4 times in the past 3 weeks??), so you had to troll around and find a post of mine from over a year ago? You are a sad puppy, man . . .

For you regulars here, softim and I have bantered at length on CARM, resulting in repeated suspensions for softim.

(09-03-2010 02:33 PM)Softim Wrote:  Well JGIG either you are a law-keeper ( obey the commandments of God) Or a law breaker--a continuous sinner. I choose to obey God.

Obeying God when one is in Christ does not mean keeping edicts and regulations of Mosaic Covenant Law.

Quote:
Of course you are the only one that's infallible. And you have 30,000 + Christian denominations all claiming they have it right!

What you don't understand, softim, is that there is great diversity in the Body of Christ. As long as a body of believers is holding to the core indisputable matters of the Faith, there can be unity in the Body, as long as its members are showing deference to each other on the secondary, disputable matters of the Faith. When a certain denominations/streams of thought (including the Hebrew Roots/Messianic Judaism streams of faith, btw) elevate their pet theologies above the Gospel, then there is division.

Quote:Yeah well you can count on God to be constant, for instances 16 'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.' (Exo 31:16 NAS) PS it's one of the Ten commandments.
The RCC changed the Sabbath not God. The rest of the festivals are God's appointed times, God makes an appointment and I am going to show up.

Yup. For the sons of Israel. For a specific people for a specific time.

Quote:It's not a concept at all it's a fact. [Renewed covenant]

Your concise use of Scripture is enlightening. The 'because I said so' method doesn't wash, softim.

Quote:Ditto with Christianity with all their sects, false teachers, cults etc.

Addressed.

Quote:And my goal is to refute you.

Apparently! You can't help but get suspended repeatedly on the other forum though, as you 'refute' me, so you had to dig up this post that's well over a year old. Sad. Just sad.

Quote:Well you would be wrong.

Again, you're relying on the 'I said so' method. Convincing.

Quote:
Yes look it up, it's a matter of cleanliness. [niddah]

Partly, but there is also a matter of ceremonial cleansing as per Mosaic Covenant Law.

Quote:Lets stop right here, it's referred to in Scripture as the law of Moses but it is God's Laws not something made up by Moses.

Pardon me for using the same terminology as Scripture! Yes, softim. We all know it's God's law given through Moses. Get over it.

Quote: Good for you! However nobody in my Congreation or does the largest Messianic organization force anyone to be circumcised.

The family I referred to was not forced, softim, they wanted to be circumcised to comply with the Law. Though no one is forced in your congregation, have any gone ahead and done the ceremonial circumcision?

Quote:The people Paul is referring to with the term "Judaizer" was someone who preaches that one must be a Jew to be saved, the term Judaizer today however is used by those that insists that we know longer have to follow the Commandments of God.

Galatians 3:1-3
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

Nope. Justification was a done deal. They were trying to be sanctified by the Law.

Quote: Nonsense.

Because you said so?

Quote: Just like some Christian denominations follow and practice pagan holidays, Gnostic practices, ect.

Merely a deflection from the practices of Kabbalah and Jewish Mysticism in the Hebrew Roots/Messianic Judasim streams of faith. Let the reader examine Yashanet and RefinersFire, two sites that you like to reference on the other forum. Lots of interesting extra-Biblical practices taught there!

Quote: The commandments of God are not Traditions they are requirements for Holiness.

Jesus is righteousness and holiness for the believer:

1 Corinthians 1:30
30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Quote:A misnomer either you are a messianic believer or a christian there is no such thing as a "Christain Jew"

There are Jewish Christians, though =o).

Quote:No body is fully under the New Covenant, and all covenants God made with men are still valid.

Again with the 'because I said so' assertion?

Quote:Moses did not give us the Law God did, and the word properly translated means instructions not Law. Tell me JGIG is Yeshua a different God ? How many gods are there ?

Again with semantics. Yeshua is God. God does not change. His methods of dealing with His people over time clearly have. One need only to read through the whole of the Scriptures to see that it is true.

Quote:LOL that's exactly what it is taken as. Discernment ? My discernment tells me the direct opposite of yours.

Then I guess one of us is in for some big surprises.

Quote:

Quote:As I did research on the HRM, I found lots of info.

Yeah from anti-HRM sites !

Actually, no. Most of my research was done on HRM sites, and then I compared their teachings with Scripture. They didn't match up. When researching certain teachers, some anti-HRM sites came in handy, but they were not primary sources in my research. I like to go to the horse's mouth =o).

Quote:30,000 + denominations is hardly a qualifier for Christianity, and the fact that the RCC is the founder of Christianity, in fact find Christianity defined in Scripture. The word doesn't even appear in it.

Cite your sources, softim. AGAIN we're just supposed to take your word for it?

Quote:Oh I believe you are sincere but sincerely wrong....just like poor Uzzah who although was sincere he was sincerely wrong.
6 But when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen nearly upset it.
7 And the anger of the LORD burned against Uzzah, and God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there by the ark of God.
(2Sa 6:6-7 NAS)

The Law 'keeping' mentality not only cheapens the Law and the Holiness of God, but also devalues the amazing Grace that God extends to us in the Gospel.

softim, if you think you can banter with me here, have at it. If you think the mods at the other forum were tough . . .

-JGIG