Jesus: Son of Joseph or Son of God?

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:In that case, why had Jesus to say that whoever does do the same as he did by fulfilling the Law down to the letter, won't be worthy the Kingdom of God? Read Matthew 5:18,19. Why do you make it so hard to understand what he said?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The thing is that Jesus said that not one jot or title would pass till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

In Luke 24 we see how the Law and Prophets have been fulfilled in him.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Notice that He didnt say that the Prophets and Law would never pass away but that the Law wouldnt pass until all be fulfilled. With Christ's birth,death and resurrection,they were fulfilled.
The prophets don’t pass away because they spoke words from God and they are relevant forever. But the Mosaic law had to pass away so that the words of the Prophets ,that promised a New Covenant, could be fulfilled.

If I take these commandments in verse 19 to be the mosaic law then why in just a few verses ahead does Jesus then change some of the commandments that were actually found in the Mosaic Law.

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If we notice on all of these Jesus does not annul the Law perse but instead adds to it more stringent commands.He expands on the concept so to speak. From milk to meat metaphorically speaking.The standards are raised and what may have been allowed ,due to the hardness of their hearts and due to the immaturity is now no longer allowed.The standards of holiness are indeed raised further.Be ye perfect as I am perfect says verse 48.
Jesus is giving the commandments for the Kingdom of God which the Sinai ones pointed to.The next chapter continues with Jesus giving commandments and instruction.
So I cannot say for sure that the commandments that Jesus is referring to in verse 19 are the mosaic ones.
It could be that Jesus was making a point about the Pharisees and warning them about how negating the commandments of God by their tradition were thus causing the people to not observe the commandments, since he makes reference to them in the very next verse saying

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Thus he could have been saying that they and those who do likewise will be least in the Kingdom even tho here on earth they enjoyed positions of being teachers and based on that would have expected to be great in the Kingdom.
The righteousness of the pharisees was not a true righteousness.It was based on false appearances and a concentration on external acts of law keeping as opposed to the right heart issue. They were whitewashed tombs as Jesus called them and presented a clean pleasant outward exterior while their hearts hid all sorts of filth.
So when Jesus said that our righteousness had to exceed that of the pharisees he certainly did not mean that we had to keep Torah or the precepts of the written Torah better than them.That would not have made sense in the light of the context.What Jesus meant was that our true righteousness had to exceed theirs.Our inner hearts and attitudes had to be real and not use our works and outward appearances to deceive ourselves that that is true righteousness which pleases God.

Jesus continues giving commands and teaching for 3 chapters and it concludes with the following verses.Notice that is is His sayings and teaching that people must heed .

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
Mat 7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

[Ben Masada]

(03-13-2010 01:19 PM)Dredge Wrote:  [quote='Ben Masada' pid='5532' dateline='1268494298']

Jesus was a Jewish man, and according to Judaism, an adopted child can never inherit the genealogical trait which would make him to belong to the Tribe of the father. Since Joseph was the one from the Tribe of Judah, and you claim that Jesus was only adopted by him, Jesus could not be from the Tribe of Judah. Therefore, he could not have been the Messiah. Mary was of the family of Elizabeth, a descendant of Aaron, the Levite. Read Luke 1:5,36. Mother lineage defines only the Jewishness of the child but not his Tribal affiliation.
Ben

---

[quote]Well you just wiped out two tribes of Israel and gave portions of the land to gentiles. If there is no tribal relation thru adoption then Ephraim and Manasseh can not be tribes as they are Joseph's sons adopted by Israel and inherited land as sons and their mother was Egyptian making them gentiles.

No, I did not! There is tribal relation through adoption, but one does not pass to belong to a certain Tribe because he has been adopted. Ephraim and Manasseh were used to create two Tribes in order to make up for Joseph and Levi in the inheritance of the Land of Canaan. They would be to Jacob as children but not actually his children. That was the prelude to creating the second Theology House, known as Messiah ben Joseph. No wander they became known as the Tent of Joseph, Devinely rejected later on behalf of Judah, Messiah ben David, whose House was confirmed. (Psalm 78:69-69)

[sheep wrecked]

(03-14-2010 10:24 AM)Ben Masada Wrote:  [quote='Dredge' pid='5537' dateline='1268500798']

Quote:Well you just wiped out two tribes of Israel and gave portions of the land to gentiles. If there is no tribal relation thru adoption then Ephraim and Manasseh can not be tribes as they are Joseph's sons adopted by Israel and inherited land as sons and their mother was Egyptian making them gentiles.

No, I did not! There is tribal relation through adoption, but one does not pass to belong to a certain Tribe because he has been adopted. Ephraim and Manasseh were used to create two Tribes in order to make up for Joseph and Levi in the inheritance of the Land of Canaan. They would be to Jacob as children but not actually his children. That was the prelude to creating the second Theology House, known as Messiah ben Joseph. No wander they became known as the Tent of Joseph, Devinely rejected later on behalf of Judah, Messiah ben David, whose House was confirmed. (Psalm 78:69-69)

Gen 48:5 [b] And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.
Gen 48:6 And thy issue, which thou begettest after them, shall be thine, and shall be called after the name of their brethren in their inheritance.


What Jacob did is take Ephraim and Manasseh for his OWN SONS. He then told Joseph that whatever children Joseph had from then on would Joseph's children - but Jacob TOOK Ephraim and Manasseh for his OWN SONS.

You are spamming a whole bunch of conjecture and falsely interpreting the Scriptures. This topic is now closed to YOU please do not post any more to this thread.

[sheep wrecked]

Ben, your last post was deleted. You were asked not to post to this thread. It appears as though you have as much difficulty understanding English as you do the OT.

[prayerwarrior35]

I've always wondered this myself.

I'm quite fond of David and the lineage and the heroes of the Old Testament and the promise God made to David that his descendant will always rule the throne. Then you think of Joseph and his first born son being the 7th son of the 7th son (three times over), then you get into immaculate conception and it's NOT the seed of Joseph that gives birth to Jesus...???

Seed = sperm literally, it's mentioned many times throughout the whole bible.

Then my friend sends me a link to some video comparing Christianity to other pagan religions that all had virgin births. Dec. 25th, sun worshipping, cross worshipping.

Then I wonder if the virgin birth was copied from pagan beliefs somehow, like the whole sunday worship (like the sun-god followers), and the Dec. 25th as a holy day (winter solstice) when Jesus was likely born in Spring. But it's plain in the bible that Jesus was not the son of Joseph because he was going to leave his wife at first. Then is Joesph's first born son the heir to the throne (I guess that's why you guys are talking about adoption, but that doesn't change the fact it's NOT his seed).

I'm confused about the topic, but overall if Jesus was an actual virgin birth or if he was descended of the seed of king David both are awesome signs and don't change the nature of Jesus or his spirit, or his life or power.

BTW, I'm new. Raised into a Baptist church until 10 or so, went to an SDA church from 18-20 (born again there, but left because they didn't allow me to be baptised since I worked on Saturdays) but have kept many of their beliefs since especially a fondness of bible study.