Threaded Mode | Linear Mode

**Lois** · (This post was last modified: 06-25-2012 09:10 PM by Lois.)

corecrash

You said,

Quote:Lois,

Think about what you are saying here. You can apply this to anything.

If I try to Love everyone according to the Royal Law, can't I say, Look Lord, I'm loving everyone! Let me in! Can't keeping the Royal Law also move into using it as a charm or talisman? It's a condition of the heart.

I mean why do mainstream Christians sing hymns at church? Why do they even go to Church in the first place? Why do they have communion? Why do they observe easter? I could argue and find people to use as an example that they hold those as charms and talismans to say they are Godly, or that they are better than the Jews or better than other Christians. It's evident in much that I have read that mainline Christians think that because they disavow the entire Law of God that they are better than Messianics! Can this be true? No way.

So I'm confused why we use the festivals, sabbaths, and dietary instructions as our yard stick? I mean, I can observe passover and think I have special access to God that no one else has or I can observe Sunday worship and think I have special access to God. either way, it's a condition of the heart that is the problem, not which day I observe.

I can agree with what you've said here.I also believe that mainstream Christianity holds things as charms and talismans.I don't agree with the majority of "mainstream Christians" so I won't go into disputing THEIR beliefs at this point.
What you may have been missing about what I said there is that there is a reoccurring theme throughout this forum.People come here and brag about some blessing they get for keeping the feasts.
Like I said, if you want to have a feast to honor God,knock yourself out but the keeping of feasts doesn't save anyone.

Quote:For me, I observe the festivals because God told me to

Do you really think that when God was speaking directly to the Israelites He was talking to you to?

Quote:When we say, God.. forget your Laws. I know what is best in this enlightened age. I don't want to feel like I'm being controlled by your legalistic code of Law, so I'm going to do what makes more sense to me! I'm going to lift myself up above you!

There in lies the problem. It's a problem with the heart.

It always comes down to HR adherents accusing us(Christians) of having a "Forget Your laws" attitude..You and they might think that we render the law as irrelevant but you could not be further from the truth.(not to mention that saying such things is offensive to people)
A person who is truly saved through Christ Jesus has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.The work of Jesus in us through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what keeps the law in us and on our hearts.

You can't keep the law.
Only one person has kept the law,Jesus Christ.

Breaking the law over and over and then saying,okay I'll try to do better next time,is NOT keeping the law.

The big problem is that people are trying to keep a law that they already broke.How can you keep something that you already broke?
No amount of keeping it will fix the fact that we already broke the law.

My focus is not to be on trying to keep laws that I already broke..because I can't..you can't and anyone that says they can is a liar because we have already sinned and broke the law in some way shape or form.We can't keep the laws of God by the power of our own might..it is only by the power of the Holy Spirit we are able to have the slightest bit of success at all.I am to trust in the Spirit of God that dwells in me once I have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savoir.
As soon as I have accepted what Jesus has done for me on the cross, I am in REMISSION.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You are right it is a problem of the heart.
No amount of good works or keeping of the law can regenerate the heart.It is Jesus Christ in us that does that work.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I am dead to the law.

I have accepted Christ's sacrifice for my sins and because I have.. He now lives in me.I trust Him to do the sanctifying work in me and I will stop trying to do the work myself.
By keeping the letter of the law you are trying to do the work yourself..and not allow Christ to do the work in you.
Jesus came to save us from all that futile work that never changed our hearts and therefore could never allow us to be reconciled to God.He said come to me and I will give you rest.

It's interesting how you and HR will accept that Christ fulfilled the sacrificial system but not the law.They go hand and hand I don't see how you can separate the two.

The purpose of the law is to convict people of our inability to keep the law and point us to our need for Jesus Christ as Savior.
The law was not abolished.We still live in a fallen world.The law is still needed to convict us of sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The law was never intended by God to be the universal law for all people for all of time.
We are to love God and love our neighbors. If we obey those two commands faithfully, we will be upholding all that God requires of us.

Every minute that I go without sinning means I have kept the law but it is not by my own might that I am able to do this but by the Holy Spirit that dwells in me.

Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Before Christ, we are “slaves” to sin. Now we have a new Master. Sin continues to exist, but we should no longer be dominated by it.

As Christians, we have God’s Spirit within us to empower us. However, we still face temptation and must strive to stand against sin.

We are not lawless Christians.

We are dead to sin.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

corecrash · (This post was last modified: 06-26-2012 12:31 AM by corecrash.)

(06-25-2012 09:04 PM)Lois Wrote: corecrash

You said,

Quote:Lois,

Think about what you are saying here. You can apply this to anything.

If I try to Love everyone according to the Royal Law, can't I say, Look Lord, I'm loving everyone! Let me in! Can't keeping the Royal Law also move into using it as a charm or talisman? It's a condition of the heart.

I mean why do mainstream Christians sing hymns at church? Why do they even go to Church in the first place? Why do they have communion? Why do they observe easter? I could argue and find people to use as an example that they hold those as charms and talismans to say they are Godly, or that they are better than the Jews or better than other Christians. It's evident in much that I have read that mainline Christians think that because they disavow the entire Law of God that they are better than Messianics! Can this be true? No way.

So I'm confused why we use the festivals, sabbaths, and dietary instructions as our yard stick? I mean, I can observe passover and think I have special access to God that no one else has or I can observe Sunday worship and think I have special access to God. either way, it's a condition of the heart that is the problem, not which day I observe.

I can agree with what you've said here.I also believe that mainstream Christianity holds things as charms and talismans.I don't agree with the majority of "mainstream Christians" so I won't go into disputing THEIR beliefs at this point.
What you may have been missing about what I said there is that there is a reoccurring theme throughout this forum.People come here and brag about some blessing they get for keeping the feasts.
Like I said, if you want to have a feast to honor God,knock yourself out but the keeping of feasts doesn't save anyone.

Quote:For me, I observe the festivals because God told me to

Do you really think that when God was speaking directly to the Israelites He was talking to you to?

Quote:When we say, God.. forget your Laws. I know what is best in this enlightened age. I don't want to feel like I'm being controlled by your legalistic code of Law, so I'm going to do what makes more sense to me! I'm going to lift myself up above you!

There in lies the problem. It's a problem with the heart.

It always comes down to HR adherents accusing us(Christians) of having a "Forget Your laws" attitude..You and they might think that we render the law as irrelevant but you could not be further from the truth.(not to mention that saying such things is offensive to people)
A person who is truly saved through Christ Jesus has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.The work of Jesus in us through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what keeps the law in us and on our hearts.

You can't keep the law.
Only one person has kept the law,Jesus Christ.

Breaking the law over and over and then saying,okay I'll try to do better next time,is NOT keeping the law.

The big problem is that people are trying to keep a law that they already broke.How can you keep something that you already broke?
No amount of keeping it will fix the fact that we already broke the law.

My focus is not to be on trying to keep laws that I already broke..because I can't..you can't and anyone that says they can is a liar because we have already sinned and broke the law in some way shape or form.We can't keep the laws of God by the power of our own might..it is only by the power of the Holy Spirit we are able to have the slightest bit of success at all.I am to trust in the Spirit of God that dwells in me once I have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savoir.
As soon as I have accepted what Jesus has done for me on the cross, I am in REMISSION.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You are right it is a problem of the heart.
No amount of good works or keeping of the law can regenerate the heart.It is Jesus Christ in us that does that work.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I am dead to the law.

I have accepted Christ's sacrifice for my sins and because I have.. He now lives in me.I trust Him to do the sanctifying work in me and I will stop trying to do the work myself.
By keeping the letter of the law you are trying to do the work yourself..and not allow Christ to do the work in you.
Jesus came to save us from all that futile work that never changed our hearts and therefore could never allow us to be reconciled to God.He said come to me and I will give you rest.

It's interesting how you and HR will accept that Christ fulfilled the sacrificial system but not the law.They go hand and hand I don't see how you can separate the two.

The purpose of the law is to convict people of our inability to keep the law and point us to our need for Jesus Christ as Savior.
The law was not abolished.We still live in a fallen world.The law is still needed to convict us of sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The law was never intended by God to be the universal law for all people for all of time.
We are to love God and love our neighbors. If we obey those two commands faithfully, we will be upholding all that God requires of us.

Every minute that I go without sinning means I have kept the law but it is not by my own might that I am able to do this but by the Holy Spirit that dwells in me.

Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Before Christ, we are “slaves” to sin. Now we have a new Master. Sin continues to exist, but we should no longer be dominated by it.

As Christians, we have God’s Spirit within us to empower us. However, we still face temptation and must strive to stand against sin.

We are not lawless Christians.

We are dead to sin.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I think we are in agreement here. I never said I "keep the Law" by my own might. But you yourself, I think it was you, said that HRM people say that we can keep the law through the power of the Holy Spirit. That's exactly what you are saying. Through his might we keep the Law, but that in no way abolishes the Law.

We are dead to sin. But why are we dead to sin? Because we died with Christ and through him we are raised a new man/woman. What does it mean to be a new man or woman? Just profess Christ and go on about our business?

I mean what are we talking about here? If you don't believe in Christ and try to keep the Law then it is by your own might. But if we embrace Christ and keep his Law then it's by the power of the Holy Spirit. But that suggest we can't sin when we know that we sure do. However, you are free to quench and grieve the Holy Spirit are you not? Are you saying that your freewill is taken away because the Holy Spirit is within us?

yes, You are correct, we already broke the Law. Through Adam we broke it the minute we were born.

I'm not really following you here because you seem to contradict yourself. In one breath you say "Breaking the law over and over and then saying,okay I'll try to do better next time,is NOT keeping the law." Who said that was keeping the Law? But then you say Christ regenerates our Heart and because of that, we don't transgress his Law?

To me I hear you saying the exact same thing I am saying. And yes, I can separate the Sacrificial Law and Levitical Law from the Moral Law because We are told that in the New Testament. We are told so in Hebrews and in light of the entire new testament, are we not?

We are told that he became our High Priest and that he became our sacrifice. Do you deny that? So, if he is our High Priest and he is our sacrifice once for all, but everywhere else it tells us to obey his commandments, what does that say? To me, it says the Moral law is still there, it's just written on our hearts. But if there isn't a Law, then what is written on our hearts?

I see what your points are, but tell me what James means when he says:

14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

This is a tough discussion because I think we are mincing words. It's like we are saying, there is now Law because Christ died for our sins, but we don't sin, because God wrote his Law on our hearts and through the Holy Spirit we obey God's commands, but there isn't a Law. That doesn't make much sense to me. Because if we are told "the one who practices sin is of the devil" then how can there be sin if there isn't a Law?

I mean is there or isn't there a Law? Regardless if it's written on our hearts or on our foreheads (I jest). Do you disagree that Jesus expanded (or revealed it's true Intent) the Law in Matthew? If he didn't what was he saying? Do you think the 10 commandments have been done away with? I guess I'm not really sure what you believe.

Can you expand on 1 John 3:4 when he defines what sin is? "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness" How about:

8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another;

So if sin is lawlessness, then what Law are we referring? The 1st and greatest Law? Love the Lord your God with all of your heart? Or the Royal law, Love your neighbor as yourself? What does it mean to hang those two commandments on all the Law and the Prophets? I see some translations say "depend" and others "hang". When I look up what that words means it seems to me that it means they frame then, or they sum them up. So if they sum them up and Those are Christ's Law then isn't that the same at the OT Moral Law?

See...when I responded to that post, I was under the assumption that we were in agreement that the Holy Spirit indwells us, that Jesus was the manifestation of God on earth, that he died to purify us and to atone us from sin. What I was trying to convey, is that there is still a Law and if you compare what Jesus said and quoted from the Old Testament to what is in the Old Testament, then there is no difference in the the two. What do you say is the difference between OT Law and NT Law?

Of course we can never "do the law" on our own. That's why we need Jesus to become our continual sacrifice. Do you deny that? I'll have to re-read what I wrote, but I don't think I ever did.

What does it mean when Jesus said, if you love me keep my commandments? Which commandments? how do we love Jesus? I say that the Holy Spirit puts that love in us. Because for me, I cannot explain the Love that I feel for him. It isn't something I conjured up on my own.

What happens if we profess Christ but continue to sin knowing full well what we are doing? But again, I ask, how can we sin in the first place?

So you are right, we are dead to sin why? Because the Holy Spirit puts in us the desire and the ability to follow Christ's commands. But by no means does that mean there is not a Law at all. I'm sorry if I offended you but reading all the posts here, it's hard not to gather that there are some that think there isn't a Law at all. There has to be! What has changed then? We have been changed, not the Law.

Quote:For me, I observe the festivals because God told me to

Do you really think that when God was speaking directly to the Israelites He was talking to you to?

Yes, I do. Why? Because we are grafted into Israel. I don't think of that the way It seems HRM does. I don't think it means to "make it jewish" because God did not give it specifically to the Jews nor was it created by the Jews. What about the Gentiles that were with them on Mount Sinai? Was he not speaking to them?

Those feasts are not Jewish feasts. They didn't make them up. They are God's feasts. Jews don't have a separate religion they Just don't believe in God's salvation, Jesus. And because of that, we are given the opportunity to approach God and embrace Jesus.

We can carry this to extremes. Do you think that Jesus came for you?
"But He answered and said, 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.' But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, 'Lord, help me!' And He answered and said, 'It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.'

He spoke this of a Gentile woman. A Canaanite woman. But of course He came for you! Of course he was speaking to you though he was physically speaking to the Jews right in front of him.

We can make anything sound like something when we yank it out of context. But the overall promises were given to Israel. They were the vehicle that God entrusted with his Word and his oracles, do you disagree? We are now included in those Promises because we are grafted in. What does it mean that we can be cut off if we do not hold to the faith? Can we read that as if we do not continue to believe? What does it mean to believe then? I think it means Trust because Abraham Trusted God. But he Trusted him by doing what he told him to do. What would have happened if Abraham said, Thanks God, I believe you, but I'm not going to the land you show me.

Do you really believe that God replaced the image of Christ in the Passover, Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, and the other festivals with images of Eggs, Rabbits, Christmas Trees, and whatever else there is? I mean he did say that these ARE an image of things to come. That is future tense.

I'm not trying to say that if you do not keep the festivals you are sinning or are not in Christ. NO WAY... I don't believe that for a minute. God knows your heart. What I am saying is if these holiday's really are mixed with pagan influence, then why wouldn't we want to celebrate the images of Christ in festivals/celebrations/memorials? To me, it would be like observing Ramadan just because someone in times past did it and claimed we adopted it to honor Jesus because he fasted for 40 days.

I feel for you. Iv'e experienced in the Christian Church what I think you experienced in HRM by people telling me I have to do certain things a certain why or I'm not being faithful to God. I've been baptized 3 times. Why? I was ignorant and men told me that I had to be baptized into their denomination. What a crock! I wish I knew then what I know now, I have a two edged sword to slay them with now. :-).

I've been told if I don't speak in tongues then I do not have Christ within me. I've been told that if I do not have papers proving that I'm saved then I'm not saved. I mean what on earth are these people talking about?

So please, I read in your response to me some bitterness and anger. Of course I could just be reading that and you do not intend that. But if I'm right, then please, I don't mean to offend at all.

I know if I were to go to some HRM congregation and they told me I had to observe Passover in some particular way or I'm sinning, I would not be happy. I'd try to show them in gentleness their error and if they didn't listen, I'd do what Paul did to the Jews that wouldn't listen, I'd shrug my shoulders and move on. I can observe Passover by myself, I just hope that someday I can find someone that I can share it with outside of my family who doesn't put all kinds of man made regulations on it.

corecrash · 06-26-2012, 12:57 AM

[quote]
I can agree with what you've said here.I also believe that mainstream Christianity holds things as charms and talismans.I don't agree with the majority of "mainstream Christians" so I won't go into disputing THEIR beliefs at this point.
What you may have been missing about what I said there is that there is a reoccurring theme throughout this forum.People come here and brag about some blessing they get for keeping the feasts.
Like I said, if you want to have a feast to honor God,knock yourself out but the keeping of feasts doesn't save anyone.
[\quote]

Sorry I have multiple posts to make it a little easier to read those. It's hard for me to read those really long posts mixed with bible quotes, the quotes of other text, and previous quotes... it's mind numbing and I can't respond to them all. I like taking it in little bits and pieces.

I haven't read all the posts so I don't know what all the HRM people say about blessings from keeping the feasts. But I will say, haven't you received a blessing from God that you wanted to share with anyone?

I don't know the spirit in which they claim this, but if you found some song that really blessed you and made you feel closer to God (though we know a song can't bring us closer to God, it's a sheer silly human thing) then wouldn't you want to share that with someone?

For me, I don't think I even implied that observing festivals saves anyone. Nothing but Christ can save anyone. Do they really say that if you believe in Christ but don't observe the festivals that you are not saved? That's just really wrong. I'm sorry you had to experience that.

Let me tell you a story. When I regularly attended Vineyard Columbus, we invited a neighbor to come with us because he was having a hard time with his livin' girlfriend. What I didn't know, was that he had been to vineyard before and had some really negatives thoughts about them. Mainly around money.

At that meeting, They were announcing some things they felt God was doing in a manner what was praising God and bragging on God. But this guy took it as they were shoving money in his face and they were all bragging about their own accomplishments. At that time I felt like this guy was a little jealous or maybe even convicted and he thrashed against it by attacking the Church.

I tell this story because at what point does it move from someone praising God to praising their own accomplishments? I mean if I were to say that I was blessed by God because I held the feasts, is that wrong? Wouldn't anyone telling me that I hadn't received a blessing be legalistic in a sense? I guess I don't know the context in which they said these things. I mean sure, I felt blessed the first time I observed the Sabbath in a way I felt God wanted me to (not like a jew). But what was that blessing? Just joy. I felt happy and I felt content. Isn't it God that fills us with Joy? What is so bad about that?

What did you feel the first time you went to Church after accepting Christ? Were you blessed? I hope you were.

You know, when I read your post the first time, I didn't respond to "correct you". I guess I thought I sensed that at some point you felt you wanted to observe these feasts and HRM pretty much ruined it for you with all their legalistic adornments that have been added by them and the Jewish Rabbinical clan.

I think if you want to do this then no one should judge you if you do or if you don't. Just like Paul said: "Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day". Col 2:16

What's kind of ironic, is the other camp, claims that this verse abolishes the Sabbath and festivals, but it does not. The context of this verse really gives a a good understanding. I won't go into it unless you ask.

So I'm sorry that I offended you. I was trying to lift you up.

**Lois** · (This post was last modified: 06-26-2012 12:06 PM by Lois.)

corecrash,

Honestly,I think you need to relax and take a deep breathe.You are all over the place.I think it would be good to try to remain focused on one thing at a time.

This thread is,Does Jesus bring a new Torah with the New Covenant?

I know that I have followed you somewhat off the topic of the thread but we really need to try to stay on topic.

You have said things about Easter in what is 2 or 3 threads? I don't even know because you all over the place.

I am really not trying to discourage you from posting.It's just that most of what you are saying has already been addressed in other threads.

I would suggest that you take some time to read what has already been posted and address your question in the appropriate thread.

I would also suggest you use the forums search function to help you in doing so.

I'm really not trying to be mean it just cuts down in a bunch of confusion in the threads.

If someone comes to the forum to read, Does Jesus bring a new Torah with the New Covenant?

They don't get any answers to,Does Jesus bring a new Torah with the New Covenant?They get all theses confusing ,jumbled posts about Easter.laws,mainstream Christianity,feast and so.

Let's try to slow down,read what has already been said on the subjects in their threads..and really try using the search function.

A link to the forum search function.
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/search.php

Wild Olive · (This post was last modified: 12-14-2012 11:28 AM by Wild Olive.)

Wow very interesting conversation. I hope I can still jump in on the conversation. if not please let me know.

I have a question to start out with. If G-ds law(torah) was around before the world began, because Jesus is the living torah made flesh, how can he have brought a new torah?

just for clarification, I believe the word Law "nomos greek" is torah in Hebrew and means "G-ds teachings guidance and direction to life" (not to say you don't already know this. Its just to show were I'm coming from)

So when G-d created Adam didn't he begin giving Adam torah and then gave Noah more torah( 7 laws) and the Abraham more torah (7 laws and covenant promises) and then Israel at Mt. Sinai more torah(613 laws and promised it would be forever) and then Jesus brought the complete torah (properly explaining the torah, fulfilling the sacrifices, plus the sins the sacrifices didn't cover)?

Paul says "were sin increased grace also abounded more. (Romans 5:20)"

From my perspective the torah is also an expression of G-ds grace. How would man know G-ds standards and that he was sinning if G-d didn't first show him what sin was by Torah. So as G-d gave torah from Adam to Jesus he expanded it each time because he was trying to teach man about their sins and what to do about it to stay in relationship with the father.

So each time G-d expanded the torah with man he created a new covenant with man, but it never totally abolished the last covenant.

Rose of Shushan · (This post was last modified: 12-15-2012 01:49 AM by Rose of Shushan.)

Hi Olive

Quote:I have a question to start out with. If G-ds law(torah) was around before the world began, because Jesus is the living torah made flesh, how can he have brought a new torah?

It is hard for me to answer the question since I'm not sure what you mean by Jesus being the living Torah made flesh.As you said in the paragraph following the above that you believe the Torah to be "G-ds teachings guidance and direction to life" do you mean that Jesus is God's teachings and guidance and direction.
I do believe that Jesus is our guidance and direction but even so I'm not sure if that's what you meant exactly and it is confusing for me at least.
The idea of Jesus,or someone bringing a new Torah is referred to in Isaiah where it says

Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Isa 42:21 The LORD was pleased, for his righteousness' sake, to magnify his law and make it glorious.

If we read the whole chapter we see that it is referring to the servant of the Lord,which we understand as being Jesus and He brings this new law( ie God's guidance and instruction or teachings) that the isles are waiting for.In verse 21 we see that the Lord blesses this law(Torah in the hebrew) and makes it glorious.

Wild Olive · (This post was last modified: 12-17-2012 08:49 AM by Wild Olive.)

Hello Rose of Shushan,

It's nice to meet you. When I say Jesus is the torah made flesh, I am referring to John chapter 1:1-14. Jesus is referred to as the word of G-d. When John wrote "the book of John" there was only one “word of G-d” at that time, which was the torah he knew his whole life. It was the commands that Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and Israel were commanded to live by. Those very commands (which were given by G-d the father himself and recorded on scrolls and tablets) had now come down and lived among man. In John chapter 1 where Jesus is referred to as the light is this not referencing a Hebrew idiom for the torah? David in Psalms 119:105 shares the torah as a "lamp unto his feet and a light unto his path."

If we are to take the passages in Isaiah 42 as Jesus bringing a “new” torah, then what are those differences? Can we find one difference between the teachings of Jesus and the commands of torah given by his father from Adam until Jesus ? Didn’t Jesus command the people in Matthew 23 to obey the Pharisees but just don’t fall into their hypocrisy?

Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

Rose of Shushan · (This post was last modified: 12-17-2012 07:43 PM by Rose of Shushan.)

Hi Olive-nice to meet you too!
I don't have a lot of time right now but just wanted to address this particular point that you wrote

Quote:If we are to take the passages in Isaiah 42 as Jesus bringing a “new” torah, then what are those differences? Can we find one difference between the teachings of Jesus and the commands of torah given by his father from Adam until Jesus ?

Matthew chapter 5 is particularly illustrative of where the commands of Jesus differ from those in the Mosaic Law.He repeatedly says "you have heard it said but I say unto you." and then proceeds with a different command to what was in the Mosaic Law.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

The teaching of Jesus there is different to the one thay had been taught.It is new and in those particular instances,for example, they show the difference.
Will expand more later but would welcome your thoughts on this Olive Smile

Will format this later too as there seems to be a glitch and can't seem to apply any formatting.Sorry!

**Lois** · 12-17-2012, 01:09 PM

Hi Wild Olive, 031

I'm a little confused by what you are saying when you say, "Jesus is the torah made flesh", so does that mean torah saves?

Rose of Shushan · 12-17-2012, 08:41 PM

Hi again

expanding on Lois's question, I was also interested to know if when you say Jesus was the Torah made flesh you mean the commandments of Sinai?
It is very hard for me to visualise this so maybe you mean something else? Since you also say that God has been giving man Torah from the beginning, do you mean God's commands taking flesh?
John's particular usage of the word "The Word" or logos in the Greek is thought by some to signify the Memra(which is aramaic) or the Word of God.According to the Jewish /encyclopaedia on the Memra in the Targums it says;

In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divinepower, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity.

Instead of the Scriptural "You have not believed in the Lord," Targ. Deut. i. 32 has "You have not believed in the word of the Lord"; instead of "I shall require it [vengeance] from him," Targ. Deut. xviii. 19 has "My word shall require it." "The Memra," instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. ix. 3; comp. Targ. Isa. xxx. 27). The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxii. 35). "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. vi. 7; comp. Targ. I Kings xviii. 24; Hos. xiii. 14; et al.). Not "God," but "the Memra," is met with in Targ. Ex. xix. 17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. xxv. 22: "I will order My Memra to be there"). "I will cover thee with My Memra," instead of "My hand" (Targ. Ex. xxxiii. 22). Instead of "My soul," "My Memra shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 30; comp. Isa. i. 14, xlii. 1; Jer. vi. 8; Ezek. xxiii. 18). "The voice of the Memra," instead of "God," is heard (Gen. iii. 8; Deut. iv. 33, 36; v. 21; Isa. vi. 8; et al.). Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. v. 5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes a "sign between My Memra and you" (Ex. xxxi. 13, 17; comp. Lev. xxvi. 46; Gen. ix. 12; xvii. 2, 7, 10; Ezek. xx. 12). Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. xx. 3), and to Balaam (Num. xxiii. 4). His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. xxiii. 21; Deut. i. 30, xxxiii. 3; Targ. Isa. lxiii. 14; Jer. xxxi. 1; Hos. ix. 10 [comp. xi. 3, "the messenger-angel"]). The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. xlv. 12). The Lord swears by His Memra (Gen. xxi. 23, xxii. 16, xxiv. 3; Ex. xxxii. 13; Num. xiv. 30; Isa. xlv. 23; Ezek. xx. 5; et al.). It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. vi. 6, viii. 21; I Sam. xv. 11, 35). Not His "hand," but His "Memra has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. xlviii. 13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. xlviii. 11; II Kings xix. 34). Through the Memra God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 90; II Kings xiii. 23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. xv. 1), and is with Moses (Ex. iii. 12; iv. 12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. x. 35, 36; Isa. lxiii. 14). It is the Memra, not God Himself, against whom man offends (Ex. xvi. 8; Num. xiv. 5; I Kings viii. 50; II Kings xix. 28; Isa. i. 2, 16; xlv. 3, 20; Hos. v. 7, vi. 7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. v. 21, vi. 2; Deut. v. 11); through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. xlv. 25); with the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. xxii. 24, 27); in the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. xv. 6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xiv. 31; Jer. xxxix. 18, xlix. 11).

It makes more sense to me that John might have been using the phrase Logos in the way he might have used Memra in the aramaic and being used to its use in a similar fashion in the Targums.