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Ne'arYah · (This post was last modified: 04-24-2011 04:35 PM by Vic.)

Quote:You're correct in saying Jesus' law is from the Father.

Ps 40:6-8
Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.(KJV)

I don't think Christ was teaching another law, but that He was teaching the perfect law, one that has been from the beginning....

I Jn 2:7
Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
(KJV)

The Sinai Covenant contained statutes and ordinances that were for the nation of Israel only for a specific time.

Shalom Sari
I say this lightly, but if Jesus taught “the perfect law” and you believe it wasn’t the torah. What does that make the instructions that Yah gave to the children of Yisra’el? The bad law, Paul calls this law a lot of things and most of them point to it being perfect (Romans 7) Torah is the perfect law, that’s why it is written on our hearts. If you read Romans 7 slowly you will see that Paul is trying to tell us that the spirit he now lives in allows him to achieve the goal set in Torah that he once had to struggle at doing.
I want to go back to the verse you quoted in 1 John 2:7 (in full).
Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning
(1 John 2:7)

It said the old commandment “is in the word”
- the word…
The only place the remnant of Yahuah would have called the word is the Torah, Acts 15 tells us that Moses is preached on every Shabbat, not the law of Jesus (Acts 15:21), but the Law of Moses.

In fact, the commandment being reference here is found in the Torah, not the “law from beginning” as if it were something else... There are so many scriptures in the Torah that point to this, which I’ll get to in a moment.
But before I do, let me explain how I see your understanding on Jesus law verses the torah law, and you can correct me if I’m wrong. If Jesus established a new law where is it after he spoke of it, why do we see the continuation of the Torah being used after his death and not his law? Why does Revelation constantly speak of keeping the Father Commandments and the testimony of Jesus, and have no mention of the Son’s laws?

Why does Paul even go as far to tell us that using the Torah is to make us wise unto salvation, who is Jesus. Don’t you think that if Jesus had this law he would use it for us to find him verses the Father’s law? Fact of matter is Jesus quote on quote law in Matthew serves as an interpretation of the meaning of Torah, not as a replacement.
I’ll repeat myself again, but Jesus could not have taught something different than torah. No one should say so unless they have a scripture of him being ordained by God to do so through prophecy, or have him breaking one of the Father laws.
Jesus says
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me
(John 7:16)
This would be the exact same doctrine that he gave his people to follow, which we are told to follow.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
( 1 Tim 3:16)
I’m not seeing how we can even play with the idea of it being something else. The prophets read
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them (Ezekiel 36:27)

Deut 29:10-11
10Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel,
11Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
Deut 30:6
And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live

This goes on and on all threw the book with the end result being us. Either you are circumcised in the heart or not, if you’re not, then yes, it doesn’t apply to you, but if you claim you are then you are now in with them.
The point you made about love in the heart derives from the old covenant equally the same.

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart (Deut 6:4-6)

- But thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself (Lev 19:18)

Let me point out something in (Psalms 40:6) Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire ; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
I’m not really sure why you post this along with verse 7, but both of these verses speak to what I’ve been saying since I typed my first words here. The sin offering is what ceased, not the covenant. Please read post 44, if you have time

Shalom!

Side note to Vic.

I'm not double posting but something must be making my post double when I transfer from the preview post screen to the actual post reply screen. PS still waiting on an answer from you in the name thread.

Quote:Originally: ROSE

I was actually trying to explain the concept and I did say there is not one verse that will explain it fully.There are so many things that cannot be explained in just one verse.

I don't want this to become an intense back and forth conversation. Right now I don't feel as if it is, however, when you start producing scripture that shows Christ not keeping the torah given by Yahuah we will carry this conversation to the end. Until then I'm leaving everything concerning it alone.

Rose of Shushan · 04-24-2011, 05:06 PM

Quote:The sin offering is what ceased, not the covenant. Please read post 44, if you have time

The sin offering was part of the Law of Moses.You cannot just say some parts are now invalid.The people had obey all the Law and you cannot now say the sin offering is taken away as is the priesthood.That doesn't leave you with the Law of Moses, my friend. Biggrin

Rose of Shushan · 04-24-2011, 05:08 PM

Quote:I don't want this to become an intense back and forth conversation. Right now I don't feel as if it is, however, when you start producing scripture that shows Christ not keeping the torah given by Yahuah we will carry this conversation to the end. Until then I'm leaving everything concerning it alone.

How about instead you give me your opinion on the following

Mat 17:24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?
Mat 17:25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
Mat 17:26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.
Mat 17:27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

Rose of Shushan · 04-24-2011, 07:59 PM

Nearyah if you want to be under the Mosaic Law still then your High Priest wouldn't be Christ but instead an earthly one from the tribe of Aaron.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

If you agree the priesthood has been changed, then there are a whole lot of jots and titles there wouldn't you say.And how do you reconcile that with the not one jot or tittle shall pass away?

In Luke were you said you preferred it to the Matthew verses well look what it says

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

The law and the prophets were until John. Until..then John came preaching the Kingdom of God….so John was the last Prophet of the Old Covenant and then Christ came bringing the New Covenant and rendering the old one obsolete.
Note that the next verse Jesus says something that is different to the written law…
Putting away one's wife and then marrying another leads to adultery. According to the Law of Moses(not just tradition) that was allowed.

Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Deu 24:2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. Deu 24:3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
Deu 24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Next let's see where Christ talked about clean and unclean.

Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 7:17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

His disciples asked Him again concerning the parable since there He was saying that nothing that a man could eat could defile him when they all knew well that the Law of Moses said that certain foods would make an Israelite unclean or defiled until evening. Christ reiterated what He has said before. That food could not defile someone.
Christ there was not teaching the Law of Moses but seems to be teaching people about the deeper concept of what really makes the people clean and unclean. The Law of Moses, having been the schoolmaster, taught the people already about clean and unclean .Now Christ develops on that concept to teach about what really defiles the soul.

Let's now consider the case of the woman that was caught in adultery and brought before Christ. The Law demanded that she be stoned. What did Christ say? That He didn't condemn her.Yet the Law of Moses did.

Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Christ said let He who is without sin cast the first stone but He did not condemn Her.If He had taught Moses Law He would have said that she had to be put to death right?

Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Joh 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
Joh 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Some say that when Christ says you have heard it said it means He referred to rabbinical traditions.Well in the Law it says

Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Exo 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Exo 21:26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.

So Christ was quoting the Law there .
Since this post is getting rather long I will stop here but I so look forward to your comments on this Nearyah.And to comments from other posters too of course.

sari83 · 04-25-2011, 12:10 AM

(04-24-2011 04:20 PM)NearYah Wrote: I say this lightly, but if Jesus taught “the perfect law” and you believe it wasn’t the torah. What does that make the instructions that Yah gave to the children of Yisra’el? The bad law, Paul calls this law a lot of things and most of them point to it being perfect (Romans 7) Torah is the perfect law, that’s why it is written on our hearts. If you read Romans 7 slowly you will see that Paul is trying to tell us that the spirit he now lives in allows him to achieve the goal set in Torah that he once had to struggle at doing.

I was quoting you when I said "Jesus' laws are from the Father." I did not mean that they are new laws, but that they are the Father's. I personally believe that in the New Covenant what remains intact are God's perfect laws that have existed since the beginning. As it is written, "He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Another poster in this thread made an excellent point by saying, Abraham followed God's torah long before the Sinai Covenant had been given, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Gen 15:1-6
After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
(KJV)

(04-24-2011 04:20 PM)NearYah Wrote: But before I do, let me explain how I see your understanding on Jesus law verses the torah law, and you can correct me if I’m wrong. If Jesus established a new law where is it after he spoke of it, why do we see the continuation of the Torah being used after his death and not his law? Why does Revelation constantly speak of keeping the Father Commandments and the testimony of Jesus, and have no mention of the Son’s laws?.

These are the perfect laws I was referring to as having existed since the beginning....

Mark 12:29-33
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.(KJV)

(04-24-2011 04:20 PM)NearYah Wrote: This goes on and on all threw the book with the end result being us. Either you are circumcised in the heart or not, if you’re not, then yes, it doesn’t apply to you, but if you claim you are then you are now in with them. The point you made about love in the heart derives from the old covenant equally the same.

True, and I believe this has been since the beginning of creation.

(04-24-2011 04:20 PM)NearYah Wrote: Let me point out something in (Psalms 40:6) Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire ; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
I’m not really sure why you post this along with verse 7, but both of these verses speak to what I’ve been saying since I typed my first words here. The sin offering is what ceased, not the covenant. Please read post 44, if you have time .

I see what you're saying. God definately has immutable laws. I just think there were statutes and ordinaces in the Mosaic law that were not said to be "forever," but only given for a specific time. One example would be how Moses had permitted divorce, yet Christ says it was not that way in the beginning.

In the New Covenant God associates with each person individually and directly through His holy spirit, and we are personally accountable to him. Whereas in the Old Covenant the nation of Israel was accountable to Him as a body or group.

Jer 31:29-30
In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
(KJV)

Also, in the New Covenant Christ is our high priest and mediator. No longer do we need a prophet or an earthly high priest.

Jer 31:33-34
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
(KJV)

Obviously, this is my personal interpretation of the Old and New Covenants, as it is something I ponder and learn new things about daily. I suppose it's like an unfolding revelation/understanding for me at this time. I don't claim to have all the answers. I think each believer is able to receive things according to where we are in our personal walks with Him.

Mo MHuintir · 04-25-2011, 12:25 AM

What is the Torah of Yhwh? Christ answered that for us; Love Yhwh with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself. I have no doubt that these were the original 10 words (or utterances ) that Yhwh wrote on the first two tablets. The same ones that Moses broke into pieces. The Israelites were not ready for the 10 words, so they received the 10 commandments.

At which time Moses said;

These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me. Deut 5:22 KJV

“...and he added no more.” You either believe that, or you believe that Yhwh added 603 more.
I tend to believe instead that all of the additions (or subdivisions) to the 10 commandments was nothing less than sinful man trying to justify himself before God, by satisfying his obligation to the letter of the law, while disregarding the spirit in which it was given.

The yoke that the leadership of Israel put upon the back of the nation, was to codify all of the additional “laws” they invented and call them “Torah.” This is why I view Messianic doctrine (in general) to be comparable to that of the 1st Century Judaizers. I’ve sat in on three different congregations. I think for many people (in the end) they will be dissatisfied because you don’t have to adopt Hebrew customs to get closer to God.. Just as Christ said, it’s not about Mount Zion or Mount Gerazim, it’s about worshiping the Father in spirit and in truth.

Christ certainly did cause a stir when he said,

There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him:. Mark 7:15 KJV

But he was just reiterating what the Father had told Noah;

Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. Gen 9:3 KJV

Unless Yhwh changed his mind down the road, where is the separation between clean and unclean animals in that statement?

I have to close now, but to summarize I think there are three separate things being referred to as " the Law" in the NT that haven’t been properly delineated.

1. The everlasting Torah that will never end, and will follow each believer into eternity (as Christ has stated);

Love Yhwh with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself.

2. The expanded Torah, or 613 Laws of the Mishpah, later to be called the Mishnah Torah (along with the Babylonian Talmud).

3. The law of sin and death. This is the law that separated us (bodily) from the Father, the one that Christ Mashiyach reversed.

Ne'arYah · 04-25-2011, 01:12 PM

Quote:The sin offering was part of the Law of Moses.You cannot just say some parts are now invalid.The people had obey all the Law and you cannot now say the sin offering is taken away as is the priesthood.That doesn't leave you with the Law of Moses, my friend.

Before I give my official response to, I want to point out something that many people dismiss due to the teachings of Catholicism that are very much part of the Reformed and Protestant churches in America. Our true church fathers “the Apostles” had no problem keeping these feast and Sabbath’s unto Yahuah, and they walked with HaMashyiach and were the privilege that not only walked with him, but also caught the fresh revelation through the Spirit. They actually had their cake and ice cream as the saying goes. We see this being documented in the bible, which shows us that these convocations were carried out nearly 30 to 35 years after the resurrection. They very well understood what the offering of Yahusha meant
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(2 Peter 2:5)

So what gives? They knew the spiritual significance just as well as you and I.
So why in the world would they continue in what most believe was done with. We see them carrying “his” feast all the way over to the book of Jude 1:12. We can even dabble through Revelations and the prophets and see these feast still being honored during the end times.

You would have a good point if the sin offering actually took away sin. However, we know through Hebrews that the offering is now no longer a goat, but it now comes through Yahusha, forever. To your question, I ask you this first in return. Why do you allegedly go to church on the Shabbat or Sun-Day, though Yahusha is around you 24-7? It’s because it is to serve biblically as a reminder of how we rest in him daily, and if you are sincere about it, I’m sure it represents a great deal of other things (Hebrews 4:4-11). Since we see that the law that points to the sacrifice of blood for animals would never cover our sin (blood covenant) what would be the reason for me keeping that today?
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
(Hebrews 10:1-4)
Yahuah’s purpose in this was, and is for our benefit, not his. Remember I said a while back that Yahusha really came for Yahuah not us because he needed blood to cover us. However, the reminder portion is for us. Do we not still need the lesson until we are made completely righteous with his imputed righteousness? Each man is his own but according to Yahuah we do. We are still sinning, every time you speed down the road your sinning, when you cut your eyes at a lady or disrespect your husband we’re sinning. This doesn’t mean that you wait until “a” day to remember your sins no more than it means you don’t put cloths on every day. What it means is that on this day, or during that time of year you are trying to make sure you put the right outfit on, or that you took that extra moment in the mirror to remove all the mess out you’re hair.

Quote:How about instead you give me your opinion on the following

Mat 17:24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?
Mat 17:25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
Mat 17:26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.
Mat 17:27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

I read this and see that nothing in this passage applies to the Torah. It all applies to man’s law, not the Torah’s law.

Quote:Nearyah if you want to be under the Mosaic Law still then your High Priest wouldn't be Christ but instead an earthly one from the tribe of Aaron.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

If you agree the priesthood has been changed, then there are a whole lot of jots and titles there wouldn't you say. And how do you reconcile that with the not one jot or tittle shall pass away?

I take it as you are speaking of the 221 commandments that were ordered within the temple for the “Priests” to follow, which would not have included us in the first place. This goes back to my analogy that I gave one guy and maybe even here. I’ve wrote on these boards so much that I forget what I have shared. Nonetheless, the analogy of laws like driving the speed limit, and buckling your seat belt only apply to the driver. You and I in relation to the priest in my analogy are not driving. We are pedestrians; better yet we are before our computers not even worried about the street, traffic, or any law containing to MVA.

Keeping that in mind your question deserves a real answer though it wouldn’t have applied to you. I’ll ask you what changed?

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
(Hebrews 7:14)

This is telling me that we have a new high priest through oath (verse 28) and not the order of Aaron. But Yauah never says “we” get rid of the physical representation of the worldly tabernacle what he did was bring the worldly one to a head by showing us it’s spiritual significance, which 2 Peter 2:5 and the book of Hebrews teaches (Hebrews 9:11). So does that mean we should through it in the trash like yesterday’s news? No. Do we not still see how we are baptized in water that shows us a spiritual reality? The principles between these two are the exact same and we would be wise to heed to them.

Furthermore look what the prophets say about the covenant listed in Jer 31:31. Some read Jer 31 and simply stop at verse 31 and say that’s us, but let us not be so ignorant, let’s read a little deeper into the end times to see what the Father has in store.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
(Jer 33:14-21 KJV)

The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: "This is what the LORD says: If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night so that day and night cease to come at their regular time, then also My covenant with My servant David may be broken so that he will not have a son reigning on his throne, and the Levitical priests will not be My ministers.
(Jer 33:19-21 Holman Christian Standard Bible)

So if we are saying that the day and night no longer exist on earth than you’re right. We throw it all away and start over from scratch. Fact of matter is there is no temple right now, and furthermore the (true) children of Yisra’el are not in their land. So these are all signs to show us that the covenant Yahuah promised has not been complete. This also adds more to your question as to what has and has not been fulfilled yet in the prophets. Taking us back to the original points I made in reference to Matthew 5:17-19.

Quote:In Luke were you said you preferred it to the Matthew verses well look what it says

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

The law and the prophets were until John. Until..then John came preaching the Kingdom of God….so John was the last Prophet of the Old Covenant and then Christ came bringing the New Covenant and rendering the old one obsolete.

So what was preached?

While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
(Matthew 12:46-50)

If I didn’t know any better, I would think you’re saying when Jesus came into ministry that the law and the prophets were no longer. This would be a high contradiction because he lived and taught according to the Torah. He pushed people to do the true will of the Father. Not the rabbinical corrupted will that we see taking place opposite of what he taught from the Father. I said it yesterday, and I will say it again, Yahusha is the living Torah he did not do any wrong by it whatsoever. He told people that the Torah was the pathway to keeping the Father’s will, and wouldn’t you know it, he was also in that Torah.

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
(John 5:46-47)

What I think is happening here is that you’re not considering everything Torah had to offer. Is mercy not grace?

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
(matthew 23:23)

So obviously Jesus truth is connected to Moses words… Could it be because he is the truth and the truth is the torah?

Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(Psalms 119:142 and John 14:6)

The connection of the Torah being written on your heart should start to make more since with these two being paired together alone.

Quote:Note that the next verse Jesus says something that is different to the written law…
Putting away one's wife and then marrying another leads to adultery. According to the Law of Moses(not just tradition) that was allowed.

Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Deu 24:2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. Deu 24:3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
Deu 24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Simply put this is not true. You fail to realize that the law already said do not covet after someone else wife. The new law, or deeper understanding was right there all-along. And as I mentioned before is marriage not a vow before Yahuah (Numbers 30:2-3)? Did Yahuah not explain the intention of the vow’s in the covenant being made? Yahusha tells the people, neither Moses or Yahauh wanted divorced, but it was suffered for their ignorance (Matthew 19:7). If you can’t accept that then I do not know what to tell you.

Quote:Next let's see where Christ talked about clean and unclean.

Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 7:17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

His disciples asked Him again concerning the parable since there He was saying that nothing that a man could eat could defile him when they all knew well that the Law of Moses said that certain foods would make an Israelite unclean or defiled until evening. Christ reiterated what He has said before. That food could not defile someone.
Christ there was not teaching the Law of Moses but seems to be teaching people about the deeper concept of what really makes the people clean and unclean. The Law of Moses, having been the schoolmaster, taught the people already about clean and unclean .Now Christ develops on that concept to teach about what really defiles the soul.

Let’s dive into this a little deeper. I will present chapter Mark 7:1-24 with no missing passages and bold a few things to hopefully pull out what’s going-on.

1Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
2And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
3For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
4And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
5Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
14And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
15There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
16If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
17And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
18And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
20And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
24And from thence he arose, and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon, and entered into an house, and would have no man know it: but he could not be hid.

(Mark 7:1-24 KJV)
So with this being said, I ask you was the tradition being mentioned in these verses the scripture that tell us what we should eat, or the Pharisee tradition of how they wash their hands? You’re thinking similar to the disciples who almost were confused on the real issue being discussed. The issue wasn’t the food, it was the fact that they had dirty hands, (in the Pharisee’s eyes) and they were eating unclean because their hands were dirty. If you read this passage closely you don’t even have a type of food being mentioned.

Quote:Let's now consider the case of the woman that was caught in adultery and brought before Christ. The Law demanded that she be stoned. What did Christ say? That He didn't condemn her.Yet the Law of Moses did.

Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Christ said let He who is without sin cast the first stone but He did not condemn Her.If He had taught Moses Law He would have said that she had to be put to death right?

Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Joh 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
Joh 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

I thank Yahuah you were not a Pharisee because according to your interpretation on this, you see it right to stone this woman. I want to read the law one more time, but before I do. I want to ask you how many people were present with her.
I count 1, and it was her all by herself

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. (Lev 20:10)

She could not be convicted simply because the other wasn’t there. Those that were waiting to stone her were simply doing so with no just cause? They needed both to know she was guilty, if they would have killed her alone. Then it would have been by the testimony of one, and for all we know that one could have been the one that was with her. Exodus 21 has nothing to do with this.

I’ll say this to your attempt of trying to convict Jesus of breaking the Torah. You will fail every time. This is the reason (1B) that Jews do not accept Jesus, because Christians think that Jesus taught another law separate from the Father. Doing this according to the law makes him no Messiah. And your thinking represents believers all over that try to persuade people to accept this, simply because they do not like the word Torah. I told you I wouldn’t mention this unless you did first. Yet here you are constantly trying to discredit the savior, are you a follower of Judaism or something, I mean you do believe in Yahusha, right? If so, why bother with this? According to the Torah you are going to prove yourself to be without a Messiah if you can find yourself to be right which you will not, to simply prove that you don’t have to keep the Father’s commandments.

The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thingfollow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
(Deut 18:15-22)

Again, I ask you to let it go and I will not mention it again?

Rose of Shushan · (This post was last modified: 04-25-2011 08:47 PM by Rose of Shushan.)

Quote:You would have a good point if the sin offering actually took away sin. However, we know through Hebrews that the offering is now no longer a goat, but it now comes through Yahusha, forever. To your question, I ask you this first in return. Why do you allegedly go to church on the Shabbat or Sun-Day, though Yahusha is around you 24-7? It’s because it is to serve biblically as a reminder of how we rest in him daily, and if you are sincere about it, I’m sure it represents a great deal of other things (Hebrews 4:4-11). Since we see that the law that points to the sacrifice of blood for animals would never cover our sin (blood covenant) what would be the reason for me keeping that today?

So that means you pick and choose what part of the law you still keep then? That's an awful lot of jots and titles that you are doing away with there.If you maintain that not one jot or title has passed away then you would be bound to obey the whole law.

Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirms not ALL the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

What I see happened is that the former covenant and its accompanying laws are made obsolete and a new one is put in its place .You instead want to say that the old covenant is still inplace but that we choose which ones we keep and which we discard.That is not how it worked and Christ affirmed that not one jot or title would pass from it til all was fulfilled.
If we were still bound to the Old one we would all be guilty of sinning as some would not be being kept and God is allowing this since He allowed the Temple to be destroyed and it hasn’t been rebuilt since..You want to pick and choose but that to me is violating Torah. Since it was meant to be kept as a whole and also by the people as a whole.
Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirms not ALL the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Quote:This is telling me that we have a new high priest through oath (verse 28) and not the order of Aaron. But Yauah never says “we” get rid of the physical representation of the worldly tabernacle what he did was bring the worldly one to a head by showing us it’s spiritual significance, which 2 Peter 2:5 and the book of Hebrews teaches (Hebrews 9:11). So does that mean we should through it in the trash like yesterday’s news? No. Do we not still see how we are baptized in water that shows us a spiritual reality? The principles between these two are the exact same and we would be wise to heed to them.

This is what Hebrews 9:11 says

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Hebrews here confirms that the Law(the whole law as given to Moses) was only until Christ came.
You say that God never said to get rid of the physical representation of the earthly tabernacle well actually God got rid of it Himself and Christ warned them also that it was going to happen.

Quote:The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: "This is what the LORD says: If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night so that day and night cease to come at their regular time, then also My covenant with My servant David may be broken so that he will not have a son reigning on his throne, and the Levitical priests will not be My ministers.
(Jer 33:19-21 Holman Christian Standard Bible)

So if we are saying that the day and night no longer exist on earth than you’re right. We throw it all away and start over from scratch. Fact of matter is there is no temple right now, and furthermore the (true) children of Yisra’el are not in their land. So these are all signs to show us that the covenant Yahuah promised has not been complete. This also adds more to your question as to what has and has not been fulfilled yet in the prophets.

That Jeremiah translation seems a bit off in the ministers and levites part..this is the KJV
Jer 33:19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying,
Jer 33:20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
Jer 33:21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
Jer 33:21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
Jer 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

First off I'd just like to remind you that there was darkness over the land for 3 hours while Christ was on the cross so that caused an interference in the day and night :D
But I am not using that as an argument since I think that promise stood and Jesus is a son of David who sits on the eternal throne .Thus Christ fulfils the promise made to David.
As to the Levites they are still around just take a look in your local telephone directory and see the amount of Levis around.

I am not sure what you mean by the true children of Israel not being in their land but hey we have enough rabbit trails already so I'll shut up LOL.Before I do though Ill just say that when Jeremiah wrote that the Israelites had been exiled to Babylon .They did return to the land and multiplied and rebuilt the Temple so the prophecies about returning to the land were fulfilled. We have a thread on that somewhere too.

Rose of Shushan · 04-25-2011, 09:11 PM

Quote:So with this being said, I ask you was the tradition being mentioned in these verses the scripture that tell us what we should eat, or the Pharisee tradition of how they wash their hands? You’re thinking similar to the disciples who almost were confused on the real issue being discussed. The issue wasn’t the food, it was the fact that they had dirty hands, (in the Pharisee’s eyes) and they were eating unclean because their hands were dirty. If you read this passage closely you don’t even have a type of food being mentioned.

Yes what set Christ off was that they were accusing Him of not washing His hands when that was a tradition of the elders but what I was focusing on was the reply.Christ said nothing that goes into a man's mouth could make him unclean. If it wasn't food what was Christ referring to? Lipstick? Biggrin

Quote:I thank Yahuah you were not a Pharisee because according to your interpretation on this, you see it right to stone this woman. I want to read the law one more time, but before I do. I want to ask you how many people were present with her.
I count 1, and it was her all by herself

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. (Lev 20:10)

She could not be convicted simply because the other wasn’t there. Those that were waiting to stone her were simply doing so with no just cause? They needed both to know she was guilty, if they would have killed her alone. Then it would have been by the testimony of one, and for all we know that one could have been the one that was with her. Exodus 21 has nothing to do with this.

I know Exodus 21 has nothing to do with it..that was the eye for an eye verse LOL anyway..
I knew you were going to reply with this since I have been around HR people a long time and have heard this used a lot.
Lets look at the passage again.
Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

She was taken in the act.I don't know where the man went whether he escaped or whether only the woman was taken to Christ. Remember they weren’t taking her to Christ for Him to stone her but to see what He would say and trap Him..Anyway the woman was taken in the act so there were more than one witnesses it seems.
They acknowledge that Moses said she should be stoned

Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him.

The Law says nothing about them having to be put to death simultaneously it just says both of them have to be put to death.

Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Rose of Shushan · (This post was last modified: 04-25-2011 09:44 PM by Rose of Shushan.)

Quote:I’ll say this to your attempt of trying to convict Jesus of breaking the Torah. You will fail every time. This is the reason (1B) that Jews do not accept Jesus, because Christians think that Jesus taught another law separate from the Father. Doing this according to the law makes him no Messiah. And your thinking represents believers all over that try to persuade people to accept this, simply because they do not like the word Torah. I told you I wouldn’t mention this unless you did first. Yet here you are constantly trying to discredit the savior, are you a follower of Judaism or something, I mean you do believe in Yahusha, right? If so, why bother with this? According to the Torah you are going to prove yourself to be without a Messiah if you can find yourself to be right which you will not, to simply prove that you don’t have to keep the Father’s commandments.

I don't believe that jews don’t believe in Christ for the reason you say but to give you the reasons would derail the topic too much.
You ask me if Im a follower of Judaism and then in the next sentence you say that according to the Torah I will prove myself right if I indeed were right in that He broeke Torah and I would find myself without a Messiah. It seems that it is you that is borrowing from Judaism no?
Since that is something that anti missionaries like to rile Christians with ..saying that if Christ broke the Torah then He wouldn’t be the Messiah. Can you please find me a Scripture that says that? Don't worry you wont find one .The traditional Judaic list today of what Messiah is meant to accomplish is only partly based on the bible since it takes some messianic verses and excludes other very important ones.

I actually feel uncomfortable saying Christ broke Torah because technically He didn’t break anything..He just didn't always follow or teach the letter of the Law and He didn’t have to- He was here to end that set of laws and give us new and better ones.The letter of the Law was for the Israelites and all had to be adhered to. Christ didnt have to obey the letter of the Law since a lot wouldn’t apply to Him (and I don’t just mean the parts that wouldn’t apply for example those to women, priests, levites etc)..Ill try to explain what I mean with an analogy.
Lets say I have a house for rent by the sea and I rent it out to people not of my family under certain terms and conditions. However my son now wants to go and stay at that house for a while. Is he subject to the same rules, restrictions and rent as the people I rent it out to. Or does He opt out because He is my son and its also his by inheritance and the contract that I made with the renters wasn’t made with him so it doesn’t apply.