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Mary · (This post was last modified: 04-26-2011 01:17 AM by Mary.)

(04-25-2011 09:42 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:
Quote:I’ll say this to your attempt of trying to convict Jesus of breaking the Torah. You will fail every time. This is the reason (1B) that Jews do not accept Jesus, because Christians think that Jesus taught another law separate from the Father. Doing this according to the law makes him no Messiah. And your thinking represents believers all over that try to persuade people to accept this, simply because they do not like the word Torah. I told you I wouldn’t mention this unless you did first. Yet here you are constantly trying to discredit the savior, are you a follower of Judaism or something, I mean you do believe in Yahusha, right? If so, why bother with this? According to the Torah you are going to prove yourself to be without a Messiah if you can find yourself to be right which you will not, to simply prove that you don’t have to keep the Father’s commandments.
I don't believe that jews don’t believe in Christ for the reason you say but to give you the reasons would derail the topic too much.
You ask me if Im a follower of Judaism and then in the next sentence you say that according to the Torah I will prove myself right if I indeed were right in that He broeke Torah and I would find myself without a Messiah. It seems that it is you that is borrowing from Judaism no?
Since that is something that anti missionaries like to rile Christians with ..saying that if Christ broke the Torah then He wouldn’t be the Messiah. Can you please find me a Scripture that says that? Don't worry you wont find one .The traditional Judaic list today of what Messiah is meant to accomplish is only partly based on the bible since it takes some messianic verses and excludes other very important ones.

I actually feel uncomfortable saying Christ broke Torah because technically He didn’t break anything..He just didn't always follow or teach the letter of the Law and He didn’t have to- He was here to end that set of laws and give us new and better ones.The letter of the Law was for the Israelites and all had to be adhered to. Christ didnt have to obey the letter of the Law since a lot wouldn’t apply to Him (and I don’t just mean the parts that wouldn’t apply for example those to women, priests, levites etc)..Ill try to explain what I mean with an analogy.
Lets say I have a house for rent by the sea and I rent it out to people not of my family under certain terms and conditions. However my son now wants to go and stay at that house for a while. Is he subject to the same rules, restrictions and rent as the people I rent it out to. Or does He opt out because He is my son and its also his by inheritance and the contract that I made with the renters wasn’t made with him so it doesn’t apply.

I know this is Rose's post that I'm replying to, but I'm really adding my bit in response to Ne'arYah: You accuse Rose of attempting to convict Jesus of breaking the Torah. ( I assume this accusation may extend to other Christians too) but in none of her posts do I see Rose doing that. What I do see is you twisting her words to lead up to this very accusation, which is one that conveniently helps your argument against the New Covenant. I think you have totally missed the point that the Law of Moses was from uBabaUmkulukulu to the people of Israel for a time. In that time they could not keep the Law, and still today they cannot. However with the coming of uJesu, the law of Moses is replaced by the Law of the uMoya of uJesu. That is clearly stated in the Scriptures (and provided in posts in the thread). I think you know this, but cannot reconcile it to your beliefs, which is why you did a sidestep on the Good Samaritan question. (Which I will deal with separately, and soon).

p.s. apologies to any who do not understand Zulu, one of my home languages. uBabaUmkulukulu means the great Father or Father of fathers. UMoya is the Holy Spirit, or Spirit. Jesus is also called at times Nkosi.

p.p.s I think if an issue is to be made about the true name of God and Jesus then I think we should also be really careful, and consistent about spelling... it's confusing enough when people use non English words on this site, but even more so when the spelling of those words differs from post to post. I apologise for being pedantic, but since a whole thread is devoted to the issue of the "real" name of God, it would certainly be respectful to maintain an English translation until the discussion in that thread is concluded. I raise the matter here only because the inconsistent usage is occurs mostly in this thread.

Mary · (This post was last modified: 04-26-2011 06:33 AM by Mary.)

So what do I get from this story?
Several things, if list them all they would have to give me a copyright on this site.
I could go on for days as to why the bible says the man tempt, or tested Jesus, as some bibles read, in verse 25 alone.
My quick answer to you is this. The man answered to love the lord your God and Love your neighbor the same (Luke 10:27).

This is at the heart of most if not all the commandments given in the torah. Each person has a wife husband, or someone that we love in our lives, I hope. These people tell us what is acceptable to them, or how to treat them. For example, you and my wife are completely different, so how I love or care for her more than likely will not feel or be the same way if I were married to you. So if we love the Father he has provided away for us to know how to love him through his word and his Ruach haKodesh (Holy Spirit).
Torah is Yahweh’s guide telling you how to love him, not how to boast and say look at me, but-to-love him. Rose, indirectly made this point; however, wrongly applied it to my words. This principle is one of old (Lev 19:18). I can say that it is the royal law or the principle law that all things are to be done through. This is why Yahushua tells us that the rest of the laws hang from them. It would be very similar to me telling you no matter what you do when you drive to buckle your seat belt. Does this mean you don’t drive, put on your turn signal, or for that matter start the car? By no means, it means this is the primary thing I’m telling you to do with those things in mind also.
In other words do not keep the Sabbath because it’s simply written in a book. Keep it with the understanding of love and hope reflecting on the love that was given to you that we rest in.

Hope this helps
Shabbat Shalom!

I'm glad you got that out of it, but sadly you missed what I was hoping would help you in your understanding of how Jesus has brought a new law - the law of Christ.

vs 25:And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

- here Jesus is being asked a question by a lawyer, who we assume knows the law. The law, by the context, we know to be the law of Moses.

vs 26: He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

- Jesus' answer shows the lawyer that Jesus knows he knows the law.

vs 27: And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

vs 28: And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

vs 29: But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

- the interesting phrase here is "willing to justify himself" . I think he knows full well he has not kept this law, and wants to excuse himself because the "terms are not well defined" - i.e. an excuse.

Jesus' answer is not specific: surely he could have said that everyone is your neighbour, and in that way shown the Spirit of the law? But He chooses to tell a story. Why do you think he did that?

lets go back to what Jesus was saying before the Lawyer asked his question: vs 23 -24.
And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

- a typical phrase Jesus used to indicate that not everyone will get the point, so it's important to pay close attention!

In the story of the good Samaritan, we see two people who should know the Law of Moses, who pass the injured man by. Why? Are they mean, wicked, unkind? Or did they believe that to help the man would break one of the laws? (and we know to break one is to break all). After all, the law of Moses was for the people of Israel, and enabled them to keep separate from other peoples - was there something unclean about this injured man? Whatever the reason, it is the Samaritan, who knew not the law of Moses, who enacted the Spirit of the law of Christ. So let me repeat, the Samaritan, who didn't know the Law, could keep it, but the priest and the Levite, who did know the law, and supposedly lived it everyday, could not.

That's what I got out of this parable, and it confirms for me that the Law of Christ is something different from the Law of Moses.

Rose of Shushan · 04-26-2011, 08:37 PM

Quote:In the story of the good Samaritan, we see two people who should know the Law of Moses, who pass the injured man by. Why? Are they mean, wicked, unkind? Or did they believe that to help the man would break one of the laws? (and we know to break one is to break all). After all, the law of Moses was for the people of Israel, and enabled them to keep separate from other peoples - was there something unclean about this injured man? Whatever the reason, it is the Samaritan, who knew not the law of Moses, who enacted the Spirit of the law of Christ. So let me repeat, the Samaritan, who didn't know the Law, could keep it, but the priest and the Levite, who did know the law, and supposedly lived it everyday, could not.

That's what I got out of this parable, and it confirms for me that the Law of Christ is something different from the Law of Moses.

I so agree with all you wrote, that parable so illustrates, like you said, the Spirit of the Law of Christ.

Ne'arYah · (This post was last modified: 04-28-2011 11:33 AM by Ne'arYah.)

(04-25-2011 08:45 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:
Quote:You would have a good point if the sin offering actually took away sin. However, we know through Hebrews that the offering is now no longer a goat, but it now comes through Yahusha, forever. To your question, I ask you this first in return. Why do you allegedly go to church on the Shabbat or Sun-Day, though Yahusha is around you 24-7? It’s because it is to serve biblically as a reminder of how we rest in him daily, and if you are sincere about it, I’m sure it represents a great deal of other things (Hebrews 4:4-11). Since we see that the law that points to the sacrifice of blood for animals would never cover our sin (blood covenant) what would be the reason for me keeping that today?

So that means you pick and choose what part of the law you still keep then? That's an awful lot of jots and titles that you are doing away with there.If you maintain that not one jot or title has passed away then you would be bound to obey the whole law.

Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirms not ALL the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

What I see happened is that the former covenant and its accompanying laws are made obsolete and a new one is put in its place .You instead want to say that the old covenant is still inplace but that we choose which ones we keep and which we discard.That is not how it worked and Christ affirmed that not one jot or title would pass from it til all was fulfilled.
If we were still bound to the Old one we would all be guilty of sinning as some would not be being kept and God is allowing this since He allowed the Temple to be destroyed and it hasn’t been rebuilt since..You want to pick and choose but that to me is violating Torah. Since it was meant to be kept as a whole and also by the people as a whole.
Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirms not ALL the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Amen.

Rose you had to either bypass my point, or simply dismiss it to think that I’m telling you that we don’t have a need for the law. The mere purpose of me taking the time to explain things the way I did was to point to not only now, but futuristically how we see God, not me, not dismissing his priesthood (the Levites). As far as me not cutting up goats and more… To my knowledge I am not from the tribe of Aaron, so if these are “the jots” that I’m deciding over and choosing “not to do,” then it does not refer to me. Nor can you think that way with others that aren’t within the Aaronic Priesthood. And to the one tribe these laws are made for, as I said somewhere before, there is no temple for these things to literally be done. This by no means dismisses the Torah. Again, I remind you that there was a time that torah was in full operation as we view it from history, and Daniel and Nehimiah had no access to the temple (much like today). In those moments Yahuah (God) did not dismiss his commandments.

Here is the ending point of my previous point that I believe you missed.

Quote:Yahuah’s purpose in this was, and is for our benefit, not his. Remember I said a while back that Yahusha really came for Yahuah not us because he needed blood to cover us. However, the reminder portion is for us. Do we not still need the lesson until we are made completely righteous with his imputed righteousness? Each man is his own but according to Yahuah we do. We are still sinning, every time you speed down the road your sinning, when you cut your eyes at a lady or disrespect your husband we’re sinning. This doesn’t mean that you wait until “a” day to remember your sins no more than it means you don’t put cloths on every day. What it means is that on this day, or during that time of year you are trying to make sure you put the right outfit on, or that you took that extra moment in the mirror to remove all the mess out you’re hair

So I deleted your last comment about the Levites being around in the telephone book and more. I only wanted to address what I thought you did not understand on certain points. I’m not trying to go back and forth and make things bitter, so I more than likely will not respond to some of the things you challenge. I feel that anyone should be able to read your point, and mine, and walk away with a made-up mind to research both.

One new thought your brought-up was that you don’t believe what I say about Israelites not believing (my paraphrase).

The only thing you can call to question is if the reasons are the #1 reasons for Judaism being against Christianity. If you want to quote me on the ranking order, then that’s acceptable. Truth is its my rank of order of those that I speak with, not some poll taken from some generic statistic. Each group has their own set of thoughts on how they defend their faith, which normally develops from the normal objections they get from the nearest or most known arguments. I get so many excuses when I talk with Judie’s (my name for those who follow Judaism) that I really can’t tell you which one is the highest ranked. Most of them believe that gentiles should not be told to keep Torah. This has been the topic of my last two discussions with them. In case you don’t believe me about that too, I’m sending you a quote from my personal email. This thought (gentiles not being required to keep torah) comes from Judaism because of the bad blood (literally) of the Jew and Romans rejecting torah in its infantile state of the two coming together after the cross. It runs so much so, that both sides caution to such a thought. The “gentile no law” thing is very easy to dismiss because we see the type of people that left Egypt with the children of Israel. And those same groups of people were called to the covenant equally the same. For the life of me I do not know what they thought the sojourner was doing when they were all called to the mountain. (Exodus 12:38, 48). So no, I don’t know what the quote on quote #1 reasons are, but what I tell you does stand as true reasons. Insert of Jews point below….

Quote:quote from Jewish brethren:

The 613 mitz’vot of Torah given to am Yis’raél at Sinai by God himself were given explicitly and exclusively to the children of Yis’raél. It is clearly stated at Sh’mot/Exodus 20:2 that the audience God was addressing were the people He brought out of bondage in Egypt. Not only are non-Jews not required to observe the 613 mitzvot, they are forbidden to observe most of them.

The Avrahamic Covenant, aka circumcision, is required by all male descendants of Avraham. This would include the descendants of his sons Yish’maél, Zim’ran, Yaq’shan, M’dan, Mid’yan, Yish’baq and Shuaḥ as well as Yitz’ḥaq and his sons Yaʿăqov and ʾÉsav. It is quite clear that God’s covenant of circumcision is not exclusive to Jews; however it is required by all natural Jews as well as all legal converts to Judaism.

The only laws requiring observance by gentiles are the shevaʿ mitz’vot b’nei Noaḥ or the seven commandments of the sons of Noah. These seven categories of commands are further subdivided into 66 individual mitz’vot. The seven categories are 1. No Idolatry; 2. Do not blaspheme God; 3. Do not steal; 4. Do not murder; 5. No unlawful sexual conduct; 6. Set up courts of justice; 7. Do not eat any part of a living creature (i.e. containing blood) The sub-divisions are as follows:

So before you get any ideas about him having a point. I answered him differently, but one of the main problems with his understanding is that gentile does not mean (person that is not a Jew or Israelite). This is why the woman at the well said “for my fathers worshipped in the mountain…” She was an Israelite! And much is the same case for those mingled among the gentile in verse 15 of Acts. Understanding this makes his point – pointless.

(04-26-2011 06:11 AM)Mary Wrote: So what do I get from this story?
Several things, if list them all they would have to give me a copyright on this site.
I could go on for days as to why the bible says the man tempt, or tested Jesus, as some bibles read, in verse 25 alone.
My quick answer to you is this. The man answered to love the lord your God and Love your neighbor the same (Luke 10:27).

This is at the heart of most if not all the commandments given in the torah. Each person has a wife husband, or someone that we love in our lives, I hope. These people tell us what is acceptable to them, or how to treat them. For example, you and my wife are completely different, so how I love or care for her more than likely will not feel or be the same way if I were married to you. So if we love the Father he has provided away for us to know how to love him through his word and his Ruach haKodesh (Holy Spirit).
Torah is Yahweh’s guide telling you how to love him, not how to boast and say look at me, but-to-love him. Rose, indirectly made this point; however, wrongly applied it to my words. This principle is one of old (Lev 19:18). I can say that it is the royal law or the principle law that all things are to be done through. This is why Yahushua tells us that the rest of the laws hang from them. It would be very similar to me telling you no matter what you do when you drive to buckle your seat belt. Does this mean you don’t drive, put on your turn signal, or for that matter start the car? By no means, it means this is the primary thing I’m telling you to do with those things in mind also.
In other words do not keep the Sabbath because it’s simply written in a book. Keep it with the understanding of love and hope reflecting on the love that was given to you that we rest in.

Hope this helps
Shabbat Shalom!

I'm glad you got that out of it, but sadly you missed what I was hoping would help you in your understanding of how Jesus has brought a new law - the law of Christ.

vs 25:And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

- here Jesus is being asked a question by a lawyer, who we assume knows the law. The law, by the context, we know to be the law of Moses.

vs 26: He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

- Jesus' answer shows the lawyer that Jesus knows he knows the law.

vs 27: And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

vs 28: And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

vs 29: But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

- the interesting phrase here is "willing to justify himself" . I think he knows full well he has not kept this law, and wants to excuse himself because the "terms are not well defined" - i.e. an excuse.

Jesus' answer is not specific: surely he could have said that everyone is your neighbour, and in that way shown the Spirit of the law? But He chooses to tell a story. Why do you think he did that?

lets go back to what Jesus was saying before the Lawyer asked his question: vs 23 -24.
And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

- a typical phrase Jesus used to indicate that not everyone will get the point, so it's important to pay close attention!

In the story of the good Samaritan, we see two people who should know the Law of Moses, who pass the injured man by. Why? Are they mean, wicked, unkind? Or did they believe that to help the man would break one of the laws? (and we know to break one is to break all). After all, the law of Moses was for the people of Israel, and enabled them to keep separate from other peoples - was there something unclean about this injured man? Whatever the reason, it is the Samaritan, who knew not the law of Moses, who enacted the Spirit of the law of Christ. So let me repeat, the Samaritan, who didn't know the Law, could keep it, but the priest and the Levite, who did know the law, and supposedly lived it everyday, could not.

That's what I got out of this parable, and it confirms for me that the Law of Christ is something different from the Law of Moses.

Shalom Mary!

Listen I think it’s great that you got what you did from this story equally the same; however, I’m not seeing where this is telling us that Yahusha (Jesus) has a new law given to us. I’ve provided a few verses back as to what that law will cause us to do through Ezekiel 36:27. The law points us back to the fathers law. His law is the Torah. I’m really having a hard time seeing how we break that cycle and insert Yahusha laws in there when his laws come from the Torah, which I also provided previously Lev 19:18 and Deut 5.

Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
(1 John 2:7-8)

Mary, the point of this story has nothing to do with the law in the sense that it is something new.

For the torah reads even more toward the brethren we are not fond of.

To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
(Deut 32:35)

Say not thou, I will recompense evil; but wait on the LORD, and he shall save thee.
(Proverbs 20:22)

Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
(Romans 12:17)

So is he changing Torah here, or is he trying to change the way man see’s torah. The story says that he tried to pump himself-up. This is why that portion should be highlighted. We see this in its fullness when Yahusha (Jesus) is on the cross and he forgives those who are putting him to his death; under torah may I mind you.

This is nothing more but what I said here from day one. He came to magnify the torah and make it honorable.

Isaiah (42:21)

This is more to the same point I made with Rose in regards to what Yahusha (Jesus) calls the heavier matters of the torah. Please read.

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
(Matthew 23:14-23)
If this does not show you what Yahusha ( Jesus) did was not his own law, but the torah’s law I have nothing more to offer you. What I offer you is not my personal understanding,but this is what he tells us his word has to offer. And I repeat again he is the word (John 1).
--
I also want to address a post you made saying that I was twisting Rose words to prove my point.
Not true. Rose alleged that (Jesus) Yahusha broke the torah and that is something that groups such as the Messianic’s think he couldn’t do. Then Rose proceeded on to say that he doesn’t have to abide by the law because he was God and Man. I simply said prove it. Show me where. We know that I’m not placing words in Rose mouth because Rose then proceeds to offer passages from the gospels to prove this point, not me.

I don’t need to condem anyone to get my point across or embaress them for personal gain. That is not love that’s called being a jerk. I even ask Rose to let it go before turning the heat-up a little. And why should I not turn the heat-up for someone says my Mashyiach is a sinner? Do you realize the repercussion that has for all of us? More importantly, I don’t need to prove that no man can keep the law by downing someone else’s view that is called childish. More importantly the bible says otherwise on that very point.
THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless
(Luke 1:6)
I’ll say the same as I have said to Rose, but in another way. I didn’t come here to kick dirt in your clean water; I’m simply here to seek understanding. So far no one has really addressed the main topic on Christ new law. In fact, most of what is being presented all goes back to Torah. Nonetheless, this is how I see it, and Yahuah (God) has blessed you with your own eyes to see what you will.

Shalom!

***Vic*** · 04-28-2011, 01:23 PM

My you are really infamous for lengthy posts aren't you Ne'aryah.

I asked you specifically to answer posters in individual posts so that it is easier to read and reply to. Please do so in any future posts. Thank you.

Ne'arYah · 04-28-2011, 03:52 PM

Each of those post were inserted in isolation. Each time you see the long black line was a new inserted post after sending the other through. I think the site connected mine because I was the first to reply so quickly after my own post

Rose of Shushan · 04-28-2011, 09:49 PM

Quote:Rose you had to either bypass my point, or simply dismiss it to think that I’m telling you that we don’t have a need for the law. The mere purpose of me taking the time to explain things the way I did was to point to not only now, but futuristically how we see God, not me, not dismissing his priesthood (the Levites). As far as me not cutting up goats and more… To my knowledge I am not from the tribe of Aaron, so if these are “the jots” that I’m deciding over and choosing “not to do,” then it does not refer to me. Nor can you think that way with others that aren’t within the Aaronic Priesthood. And to the one tribe these laws are made for, as I said somewhere before, there is no temple for these things to literally be done. This by no means dismisses the Torah. Again, I remind you that there was a time that torah was in full operation as we view it from history, and Daniel and Nehimiah had no access to the temple (much like today). In those moments Yahuah (God) did not dismiss his commandments.

How can you say that because you are not of the tribe of Aaron that the laws of sacrifice don't apply to you.You would take your sacrifice to the priest ,that is your part.Your position seems inconsistent though.At times you agree that we don't need an earthly priesthood of aaron and then at other times you say different.You cannot regard Christ as your High Priest and then also be under an earthly High Priest.
You refer to the time that Daniel was in exile but that exile was brought on themselves by their disobedience and when the appointed time was over God continued to exhort them to rebuild the Temple through His prophets.After Christ it is a different scenario as the New Covenant is the eternal one and based on better promises not the one that was temporary and just a shadow of the one to come.

Mary · 04-28-2011, 10:37 PM

Shalom Mary!

Listen I think it’s great that you got what you did from this story equally the same; however, I’m not seeing where this is telling us that Yahusha (Jesus) has a new law given to us. I’ve provided a few verses back as to what that law will cause us to do through Ezekiel 36:27. The law points us back to the fathers law. His law is the Torah. I’m really having a hard time seeing how we break that cycle and insert Yahusha laws in there when his laws come from the Torah, which I also provided previously Lev 19:18 and Deut 5.

Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
(1 John 2:7-8)

Hello Ne'arYah,

regretfully, you seem to not see God's truth here. In the Law, these men are instructed not to oppress a stranger and and not to Kill (Exodus 20 - 22) yet they walk on by, perhaps content in that they have not oppressed directly, nor attacked him. They show no mercy and refuse to bear the stranger's burdens: look at Galatians chapter 5 and also chapter 6 verse 2 :Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Now, your quoting of the verses from1 John: what is the context of those?
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

Go back also to the Gospel of John: Chapter 1: vs 1-4

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men."

note: the "old commandment is the word which you have had from the beginning" - Jesus.

sari83 · 04-28-2011, 10:49 PM

(04-24-2011 11:01 AM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: I do agree with you that Christ was teaching the perfect law the law that had underlied the Laws of Moses but were not the same.Moses Law made allowances for the people's hardness of hearts because it was a schoolmaster.In the same way that we allow our children leeway when disciplining them because we take other things into consiederation.

Excellent points, Rose.

It seems that Moses had the temporary role of mediator between God and the people . [Exod 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. (KJV)] The Levitical Priesthood also established the temporary position of the High Priest as the intercessor for the sins of the people. I think Moses understood, (as he was told to make a picture of what God showed him on the mountain) that these measures were only a picture of what was to come in the future.

(04-24-2011 11:01 AM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: I totally agree that the Sinai Covenant was to the nation of Israel, while they were to live in the land God gave them and under certain terms and conditions.If these were not abided by, they would incur curses upon them that would culminate in the covenant being broken and them being driven out of the land.

Scriptures that further clarify this:

Deut 30:16-20
In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
(KJV)

Rose of Shushan · (This post was last modified: 04-28-2011 11:01 PM by Rose of Shushan.)

Mary as you were writing your post I was also busy pasting verses for Nearyah that show the context of the John verse and as you also pointed out. 8836

There are loads so below are just a few .NearyahI think you keep insisting that this verse is referring to the Torah but like Mary, I read it differently.It seems to be referring to the Gospel or the good news and salvation of Christ.Compare with other similar verses

Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
at 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Mar 2:2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.

Mar 4:33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.

Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Luk 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Luk 1:2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Act 4:1 And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them,
Act 4:2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
Act 4:3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.
Act 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

Act 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Act 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
Act 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
Act 6:4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.

Act 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all Smile

Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
Act 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

Act 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
Act 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

Act 14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;