Does Jesus bring a new Torah with the New Covenant?

[Ne'arYah]

Quote:You so miss the aim of the New Covenant where God said He would put His Spirit in us and we would walk in His ways.In the NT we have the Holy Spirit directing believers and causing them to walk in His ways.For the past 2000 years God's Holy Spirit has been changing our hearts from hearts of stome into hearts of flesh changing around lives that were once subect to the destructive power of sin.
In the New Covennant its not wwhat we do..but what we allow God to do in us once we realise that we cannot change ourselves.
As to not knowing what sin would be if we didn't have the Law of Moses, that is so silly.We have a conscience and the Laws of Moses defined how Israel was to walk in the Land God gave them conditionally.It was not an exhaustive list of sins.
There are things that were not sin under the Law of Moses but were still wrong.Things permitted under the Law of Moses are now defined as in in the New Covenant.Divorce being one example of this.
To me your post shows that you still do not understand the New Covenant.As Mary suggested go and read the book of Galatians

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

As always I thank you for responding.
I have no problem with the book of Galatians, and I accept every word of it to be true. A point I do want to make is one that has nothing to do with the topic, but more so the personality we use in words to explain ourselves. If we are to operate in love as the scriptures and epistles teach, I personally don’t expect the first thing I read to be “you miss the aim of the new covenant”.
It seems like you’re claiming you don’t need the Law of Moses, and I’m including “the prophets” because you say you have the spirit in you? If this is correct then how do you teach the new person to walk in the spirit without the law and the prophets? I mean how would you even know what’s right on topics like the law, if we are both relying on the spirit “only”. I think we’d all find ourselves lost trying to explain how Yahushua has fulfilled the law if this were the case, since we’d have nothing to go by. Can you imagine Paul teaching the Bereans with the “hearing of faith” and them not having the scriptures to fall back on? Do you really think they would have believed (Acts 17:11-12)? What of Timothy? Did he not have the spirit, and did Paul not admonish him to hold on to the scriptures that he knew from his youth (2 Tim 3:14-16). Didn’t Peter tell us to use the scriptures (Genesis through Malachi) for doctrine (2 Peter 3:15-16). The passage doesn’t say you have the spirit, so go and walk in it, he’s telling him and us to hold fast to it. I can go on and on into some of the meaning about what we learn from Ephesians and girding ourselves in the truth, which is the word and so on. Obviously, the people who helped graft the original new comers taught differently. They looked at the spirit as being a guide, or a comforter that would assist us in our way. Those two (scripture and spirit) come together to help us find our way i.e., each man works out his own salvation, if you will. That’s my two cents on that.

Quote: the New Covennant its not wwhat we do..but what we allow God to do in us once we realise that we cannot change ourselves.

I can only assume you said this as a set-up for Galatians, and how our works cannot grant us salvation given the majority of passages you give below. I just want to be clear; I never said anything about works getting us into the kingdom by what “we do”. In fact, only a fool would say or think a think about the Law of Moses. Works have never played a role in salvation, which is a heavy misconception I bump into a lot when talking to others about the law. At this point I can’t say that you fit the bill like many others, but this is what Galatians is all about. To your credit, God has always been about what we allow him to do in us, and this fact never change.

Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou art the God of my salvation; on thee do I wait all the day. (Psalms 25:5)

So this is not something new, it’s actually anciently old dating back to the likes of Abraham when we can see that even he was made righteous through faith before the Law God gave to Moses.


Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


You can’t just throw anything out from the book of Galatians. If we do that we can dismiss the entire bible from one line, or think Peter was some loser-follower of those from Judea (Gal 2:11-14).

Example: I just agreed with you that faith in Yahushua is only done through him in the new covenant. I’ve even attached that same faith (as his name means salvation) to the Law of Moses by providing a scripture to show the two covenants offer the same salvation through faith, not works. Well these zealous boys of the law in Galatians didn’t live by that code, nor did they teach it. They taught “ Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. (acts 15:1)” This is totally out-of-line, and nothing more but a work of the law, no different than how some misuse baptism today. So yes Paul says this to the people in Galatians, because they were about to be subverted from Christ by those who desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh (Gal 6:13). So does that apply to our conversation and what I’m explaining to you? Not at all, we are talking about something much bigger than that (1 Cor 7:19), which was the gospel that Paul taught.

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God (1 Cor 7:19)

Quote: Its the Holy Spirit that is at work in us and around us helping us to obey God and changing us within so that we do so because we want to not because we have to.That is sooo important.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

I bold lettered a few things in the passage to focus on to show the following.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
(Romans 7:14-8:2)

So Paul just made Galatians 5:16-25 crystal clear. He repeatedly mentioned “works of the flesh” and how we are to live according to the spirit of Christ. This can easily be seen through the epistle as being the law of sin and death that we are now no longer bound to. He speaks of those same evils in Romans 7 continuing to Romans 8, so we cannot use the above as a theological reason to dismiss Yah’s Torah. Paul is not talking about the Torah as in all law, but the law of sin and death, that kept Yisra’el as a whole separated from Yah. This is a law that we are now free from through the sacrifice that has been made through Jesus. This does not mean you are free to walk in liberty and decide if you are going to honor your mother or steal. Galatians 3 does not mean we’re no longer bound to acknowledge Torah by any means. I’m repeating myself in another way, but the torah really is “the” only doctrine we have been told to acknowledge by God, Jesus, and the disciples.

Quote: Galatians also compares the two covenants

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Good point. Nonetheless points like this truly aren’t associated with what “we” are discussing. Remember Paul wrote this letter to the people because those zealous of the law were trying to subvert them by taking a teaching from torah “circumcision,” and make it “the way” much like some branches of faith treat baptism or speaking in tongues today. In other words, they used circumcision as their means of salvation, and “not Jesus”. This is the very reason why he called it “another gospel”( they thought it was the saving factor), because their hope and salvation was through the “circumcision” not JESUS. I’m not pushing that or even coming close to it, what I’m saying is that we ought to take those things new and old - combine them into one, (Matthew 13:52) much like Shavuot becomes Pentecost, and then walk in the spirit by them. So what does that mean? It means the following

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(Revelations 12:17)

It means that the person you just read about in Revelations didn’t keep Jesus commandments as you try to slide in your points in a subtle way from Matthew 5, but they kept the commandments of God that “Jesus instructed us to keep”, and they also kept Jesus as their testimony in faith, just like the Old Testament (scriptures) said they should…

- But the just shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4).

Quote:Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

So what do we say? Do we say that loving God was a school master given to us? Does that still work for today because that is part of the torah? The schoolmaster was not the entire Torah the way you seem to present it here through these 4 lines. If we back-up to verse 13 we get a few more signs as to what that school master was, or shall I say the lesson that the school master was to teach.
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: (Gal 3:13)

Plainly without going a step further we see that the Torah that he calls Good and holy in Romans 7:12 is not what’s being eliminated. It more so is the curse of the law, or the power and conviction that sin and death had. Curse is the man who “hangs on a tree” I wonder why?

And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.(Deut 21:22-23)

This starts to fall back into what I was trying to explain earlier with Paul’s use of the term “law of sin and death”= the penalty that stood against you “if you broke torah”. I assume we all know this, but the Torah has two sides to it, one that offers life, and one that offers death. He is referring to the curse which we know for a fact because he mentions cursed is everyone who hangs from a tree i.e penalty for transgressing torah.

Let’s work our way to the point of scripture you've focused on.
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator
( Galatians 3:19)

This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush. He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years. This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him (Acts 7:35-40) and also read (Exodus 23:20-22) So now we have a need to appeal for our sins, or one could say we see the beginning of the end starting with the transgression made here.


Then we get to your passages in verses 23-26

I’m assuming you know that Yah’s original plan was to use every 1st born child to serve him. However, after the nasty little deed they did (Yisra’el) in Moses disappearance while he was on the mountain top. All that changed, God calls the people to see who is on his side (Please read Exodus chapters 12 for first born reference, and Numbers 3, and 8:14-19 for the change). From there the tribes of Levi (Aaron) stood with God, and are then deemed to be the Priesthood, which was to replace the original priesthood, making them a temporary priesthood. So what did they do in their position? They served the temple, and in their serving the temple they were responsible for the sin sacrifice (this is the lesson that was to be learned from the school master). Not the entire law, or even the ending of that feast. This is what we were shut-up to “until the seed would come”….

The- seed- would- come.

There are many lessons to learn from the school master and the sin offering that Jesus serves as the seed for.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Daniel 9:27)

We learn through simple illustration that the goats or animal placed on the altar for our sin is to be us; the term scapegoat should start to ring a bell. We should have been the ones to die on the cross. Another lesson to learn from the school master is that God loved us so much that he was willing to kill his son in our place. As I alleged to a few days ago, this is the law or the purpose of the change in law dealing with the priesthood, which is associated with Hebrews 7. This by no means shines light on the point you’re trying to make with the torah (instructions of God) being diminished, obsolete, set-aside, or fulfilled in such a way that it’s not for the modern day person. If anything it gives me a greater purpose in keeping the feast in knowing what they are for. HalleluYah (misspelled on purpose) We should be holding that feast annually to remember what Yahushua has done for us. I get excited every time I read it…



I have responded to nearly every question and comment thrown my way. Yet I am still waiting on the passage that shows us that Jesus did not have to keep the Torah made by you. @ ROSE
Still waiting.>>?

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(04-21-2011 07:19 PM)Mary Wrote:  I was thinking that we might gain more understanding of how the Law of Christ replaced/annulled the Law of Moses by examining the story Jesus gave of the Good Samaritan, and the context in which he told it:

Luke 10: 22 - 37

All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

So what do I get from this story?
Several things, if list them all they would have to give me a copyright on this site.
I could go on for days as to why the bible says the man tempt, or tested Jesus, as some bibles read, in verse 25 alone.
My quick answer to you is this. The man answered to love the lord your God and Love your neighbor the same (Luke 10:27).

This is at the heart of most if not all the commandments given in the torah. Each person has a wife husband, or someone that we love in our lives, I hope. These people tell us what is acceptable to them, or how to treat them. For example, you and my wife are completely different, so how I love or care for her more than likely will not feel or be the same way if I were married to you. So if we love the Father he has provided away for us to know how to love him through his word and his Ruach haKodesh (Holy Spirit).
Torah is Yahweh’s guide telling you how to love him, not how to boast and say look at me, but-to-love him. Rose, indirectly made this point; however, wrongly applied it to my words. This principle is one of old (Lev 19:18). I can say that it is the royal law or the principle law that all things are to be done through. This is why Yahushua tells us that the rest of the laws hang from them. It would be very similar to me telling you no matter what you do when you drive to buckle your seat belt. Does this mean you don’t drive, put on your turn signal, or for that matter start the car? By no means, it means this is the primary thing I’m telling you to do with those things in mind also.
In other words do not keep the Sabbath because it’s simply written in a book. Keep it with the understanding of love and hope reflecting on the love that was given to you that we rest in.

Hope this helps
Shabbat Shalom!
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Oh I almost forgot, you said I spoke wrongfully. If you wouldn’t mind showing me where I’m wrong I would appreciate it. It seems that people say things around here and don’t really say them if you know what I mean (no pun intended)

{{{duplicate post to Mary deleted. Ne'aryah could you please answer different posters in individual responses. It makes it easier to read and see who is being dialogued with and who should be responding. Thank you, Vic }}}}