Does Jesus bring a new Torah with the New Covenant?

[corecrash]

(06-25-2012 09:04 PM)Lois Wrote:  corecrash

You said,

Quote:Lois,

Think about what you are saying here. You can apply this to anything.

If I try to Love everyone according to the Royal Law, can't I say, Look Lord, I'm loving everyone! Let me in! Can't keeping the Royal Law also move into using it as a charm or talisman? It's a condition of the heart.

I mean why do mainstream Christians sing hymns at church? Why do they even go to Church in the first place? Why do they have communion? Why do they observe easter? I could argue and find people to use as an example that they hold those as charms and talismans to say they are Godly, or that they are better than the Jews or better than other Christians. It's evident in much that I have read that mainline Christians think that because they disavow the entire Law of God that they are better than Messianics! Can this be true? No way.

So I'm confused why we use the festivals, sabbaths, and dietary instructions as our yard stick? I mean, I can observe passover and think I have special access to God that no one else has or I can observe Sunday worship and think I have special access to God. either way, it's a condition of the heart that is the problem, not which day I observe.

I can agree with what you've said here.I also believe that mainstream Christianity holds things as charms and talismans.I don't agree with the majority of "mainstream Christians" so I won't go into disputing THEIR beliefs at this point.
What you may have been missing about what I said there is that there is a reoccurring theme throughout this forum.People come here and brag about some blessing they get for keeping the feasts.
Like I said, if you want to have a feast to honor God,knock yourself out but the keeping of feasts doesn't save anyone.

Quote:For me, I observe the festivals because God told me to

Do you really think that when God was speaking directly to the Israelites He was talking to you to?

Quote:When we say, God.. forget your Laws. I know what is best in this enlightened age. I don't want to feel like I'm being controlled by your legalistic code of Law, so I'm going to do what makes more sense to me! I'm going to lift myself up above you!

There in lies the problem. It's a problem with the heart.

It always comes down to HR adherents accusing us(Christians) of having a "Forget Your laws" attitude..You and they might think that we render the law as irrelevant but you could not be further from the truth.(not to mention that saying such things is offensive to people)
A person who is truly saved through Christ Jesus has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.The work of Jesus in us through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what keeps the law in us and on our hearts.

You can't keep the law.
Only one person has kept the law,Jesus Christ.

Breaking the law over and over and then saying,okay I'll try to do better next time,is NOT keeping the law.

The big problem is that people are trying to keep a law that they already broke.How can you keep something that you already broke?
No amount of keeping it will fix the fact that we already broke the law.

My focus is not to be on trying to keep laws that I already broke..because I can't..you can't and anyone that says they can is a liar because we have already sinned and broke the law in some way shape or form.We can't keep the laws of God by the power of our own might..it is only by the power of the Holy Spirit we are able to have the slightest bit of success at all.I am to trust in the Spirit of God that dwells in me once I have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savoir.
As soon as I have accepted what Jesus has done for me on the cross, I am in REMISSION.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


You are right it is a problem of the heart.
No amount of good works or keeping of the law can regenerate the heart.It is Jesus Christ in us that does that work.


Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.



I am dead to the law.

I have accepted Christ's sacrifice for my sins and because I have.. He now lives in me.I trust Him to do the sanctifying work in me and I will stop trying to do the work myself.
By keeping the letter of the law you are trying to do the work yourself..and not allow Christ to do the work in you.
Jesus came to save us from all that futile work that never changed our hearts and therefore could never allow us to be reconciled to God.He said come to me and I will give you rest.



It's interesting how you and HR will accept that Christ fulfilled the sacrificial system but not the law.They go hand and hand I don't see how you can separate the two.



The purpose of the law is to convict people of our inability to keep the law and point us to our need for Jesus Christ as Savior.
The law was not abolished.We still live in a fallen world.The law is still needed to convict us of sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


The law was never intended by God to be the universal law for all people for all of time.
We are to love God and love our neighbors. If we obey those two commands faithfully, we will be upholding all that God requires of us.

Every minute that I go without sinning means I have kept the law but it is not by my own might that I am able to do this but by the Holy Spirit that dwells in me.





Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;


Before Christ, we are “slaves” to sin. Now we have a new Master. Sin continues to exist, but we should no longer be dominated by it.

As Christians, we have God’s Spirit within us to empower us. However, we still face temptation and must strive to stand against sin.


We are not lawless Christians.

We are dead to sin.


Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I think we are in agreement here. I never said I "keep the Law" by my own might. But you yourself, I think it was you, said that HRM people say that we can keep the law through the power of the Holy Spirit. That's exactly what you are saying. Through his might we keep the Law, but that in no way abolishes the Law.

We are dead to sin. But why are we dead to sin? Because we died with Christ and through him we are raised a new man/woman. What does it mean to be a new man or woman? Just profess Christ and go on about our business?

I mean what are we talking about here? If you don't believe in Christ and try to keep the Law then it is by your own might. But if we embrace Christ and keep his Law then it's by the power of the Holy Spirit. But that suggest we can't sin when we know that we sure do. However, you are free to quench and grieve the Holy Spirit are you not? Are you saying that your freewill is taken away because the Holy Spirit is within us?

yes, You are correct, we already broke the Law. Through Adam we broke it the minute we were born.

I'm not really following you here because you seem to contradict yourself. In one breath you say "Breaking the law over and over and then saying,okay I'll try to do better next time,is NOT keeping the law." Who said that was keeping the Law? But then you say Christ regenerates our Heart and because of that, we don't transgress his Law?

To me I hear you saying the exact same thing I am saying. And yes, I can separate the Sacrificial Law and Levitical Law from the Moral Law because We are told that in the New Testament. We are told so in Hebrews and in light of the entire new testament, are we not?

We are told that he became our High Priest and that he became our sacrifice. Do you deny that? So, if he is our High Priest and he is our sacrifice once for all, but everywhere else it tells us to obey his commandments, what does that say? To me, it says the Moral law is still there, it's just written on our hearts. But if there isn't a Law, then what is written on our hearts?

I see what your points are, but tell me what James means when he says:

14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

This is a tough discussion because I think we are mincing words. It's like we are saying, there is now Law because Christ died for our sins, but we don't sin, because God wrote his Law on our hearts and through the Holy Spirit we obey God's commands, but there isn't a Law. That doesn't make much sense to me. Because if we are told "the one who practices sin is of the devil" then how can there be sin if there isn't a Law?

I mean is there or isn't there a Law? Regardless if it's written on our hearts or on our foreheads (I jest). Do you disagree that Jesus expanded (or revealed it's true Intent) the Law in Matthew? If he didn't what was he saying? Do you think the 10 commandments have been done away with? I guess I'm not really sure what you believe.

Can you expand on 1 John 3:4 when he defines what sin is? "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness" How about:

8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another;

So if sin is lawlessness, then what Law are we referring? The 1st and greatest Law? Love the Lord your God with all of your heart? Or the Royal law, Love your neighbor as yourself? What does it mean to hang those two commandments on all the Law and the Prophets? I see some translations say "depend" and others "hang". When I look up what that words means it seems to me that it means they frame then, or they sum them up. So if they sum them up and Those are Christ's Law then isn't that the same at the OT Moral Law?

See...when I responded to that post, I was under the assumption that we were in agreement that the Holy Spirit indwells us, that Jesus was the manifestation of God on earth, that he died to purify us and to atone us from sin. What I was trying to convey, is that there is still a Law and if you compare what Jesus said and quoted from the Old Testament to what is in the Old Testament, then there is no difference in the the two. What do you say is the difference between OT Law and NT Law?

Of course we can never "do the law" on our own. That's why we need Jesus to become our continual sacrifice. Do you deny that? I'll have to re-read what I wrote, but I don't think I ever did.

What does it mean when Jesus said, if you love me keep my commandments? Which commandments? how do we love Jesus? I say that the Holy Spirit puts that love in us. Because for me, I cannot explain the Love that I feel for him. It isn't something I conjured up on my own.

What happens if we profess Christ but continue to sin knowing full well what we are doing? But again, I ask, how can we sin in the first place?

So you are right, we are dead to sin why? Because the Holy Spirit puts in us the desire and the ability to follow Christ's commands. But by no means does that mean there is not a Law at all. I'm sorry if I offended you but reading all the posts here, it's hard not to gather that there are some that think there isn't a Law at all. There has to be! What has changed then? We have been changed, not the Law.

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Quote:For me, I observe the festivals because God told me to

Do you really think that when God was speaking directly to the Israelites He was talking to you to?

Yes, I do. Why? Because we are grafted into Israel. I don't think of that the way It seems HRM does. I don't think it means to "make it jewish" because God did not give it specifically to the Jews nor was it created by the Jews. What about the Gentiles that were with them on Mount Sinai? Was he not speaking to them?

Those feasts are not Jewish feasts. They didn't make them up. They are God's feasts. Jews don't have a separate religion they Just don't believe in God's salvation, Jesus. And because of that, we are given the opportunity to approach God and embrace Jesus.

We can carry this to extremes. Do you think that Jesus came for you?
"But He answered and said, 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.' But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, 'Lord, help me!' And He answered and said, 'It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.'

He spoke this of a Gentile woman. A Canaanite woman. But of course He came for you! Of course he was speaking to you though he was physically speaking to the Jews right in front of him.

We can make anything sound like something when we yank it out of context. But the overall promises were given to Israel. They were the vehicle that God entrusted with his Word and his oracles, do you disagree? We are now included in those Promises because we are grafted in. What does it mean that we can be cut off if we do not hold to the faith? Can we read that as if we do not continue to believe? What does it mean to believe then? I think it means Trust because Abraham Trusted God. But he Trusted him by doing what he told him to do. What would have happened if Abraham said, Thanks God, I believe you, but I'm not going to the land you show me.

Do you really believe that God replaced the image of Christ in the Passover, Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, and the other festivals with images of Eggs, Rabbits, Christmas Trees, and whatever else there is? I mean he did say that these ARE an image of things to come. That is future tense.

I'm not trying to say that if you do not keep the festivals you are sinning or are not in Christ. NO WAY... I don't believe that for a minute. God knows your heart. What I am saying is if these holiday's really are mixed with pagan influence, then why wouldn't we want to celebrate the images of Christ in festivals/celebrations/memorials? To me, it would be like observing Ramadan just because someone in times past did it and claimed we adopted it to honor Jesus because he fasted for 40 days.

I feel for you. Iv'e experienced in the Christian Church what I think you experienced in HRM by people telling me I have to do certain things a certain why or I'm not being faithful to God. I've been baptized 3 times. Why? I was ignorant and men told me that I had to be baptized into their denomination. What a crock! I wish I knew then what I know now, I have a two edged sword to slay them with now. :-).

I've been told if I don't speak in tongues then I do not have Christ within me. I've been told that if I do not have papers proving that I'm saved then I'm not saved. I mean what on earth are these people talking about?

So please, I read in your response to me some bitterness and anger. Of course I could just be reading that and you do not intend that. But if I'm right, then please, I don't mean to offend at all.

I know if I were to go to some HRM congregation and they told me I had to observe Passover in some particular way or I'm sinning, I would not be happy. I'd try to show them in gentleness their error and if they didn't listen, I'd do what Paul did to the Jews that wouldn't listen, I'd shrug my shoulders and move on. I can observe Passover by myself, I just hope that someday I can find someone that I can share it with outside of my family who doesn't put all kinds of man made regulations on it.