Does Jesus bring a new Torah with the New Covenant?

[Wild Olive]

Hope you had a Merry Christmas Rose!

@Rose, Well I thank you again for bringing up Lev 6 because it caused me to continue to dig and I did find that that the certain trespass the person does in Lev 6 does fall into the category of “unintentional sin.” The typical English translation to “intentional” and “unintentional” doesn’t necessarily render the Hebrew sense of the word/phrase in a way that a modern English speaker would use.
The sense is something more like “Common/typical sins” versus “ serious high handed sins/directed at God”.
In modern English the intentional/unintentional juxtaposition makes it sound like “accidental” versus “on purpose” It is not. This is why I continue to study the torah from a Hebrew point of view. Our English versions are in no way without error. There are many Hebrew words that simply do not get properly expressed in our English terms and this is one of those times. This is not at all uncommon in many languages when translating from one language to another. The Hebrew rendering for unintentional is
שָׁגָה (šā•ḡā(h)) in Hebrew

8706 שָׁגָה (šā•ḡā(h)): v.; ≡ Str 7686; TWOT 2325—1. LN 15.1–15.17 (qal) go astray, wander, stray, i.e., make linear movement in no particular goal or direction, implied to not be in a proper place (Eze 34:6+); 2. LN 15.165–15.186 (hif) mislead, lead astray, let stray, i.e., guide someone in linear movement, with a focus that the leading is in a intentionally wrong direction (Dt 27:18; Pr 28:10+), note: this can refer to misleading or deceiving another in an improper belief or thought; 3. LN 88.289–88.318 (qal) sin, err, formally, wander, stray, i.e., do sin or wrong against a standard and so incur just guilt, with a special focus (in some contexts) that the wrong had no conscious malice prior to the event, as a figurative extension of a sheep who happens to wander off from the flock as it grazes (Lev 4:13; Nu 15:22; 1Sa 26:21; Job 6:24; 19:4; Ps 119:21,118; Eze 45:20+); 4. LN 31.8–31.13 (qal) be led astray, be deceived, i.e., hold a mistaken belief (Pr 5:23; 20:1+); (hif) deceive, mislead, formally, lead astray (Job 12:16+); 5. LN 36.12–36.30 (qal) disobey, stray, i.e., not keep in spirit or detail a command from an authority, as a figurative extension of being or causing another to go off a proper path (Pr 19:27+); (hif) disobey, formally, stray (Ps 119:10+); 6. LN 16 (qal) stagger, totter, stumble, reel, i.e., make the non-linear motion random wandering motion of a drunk trying to walk (Isa 28:7+); 7. LN 25.102–25.115 (qal) be in rapture, i.e., be in an attitude or emotion of very great pleasure and fondness for an object, possibly as a figurative extension of staggering around in stunned or inebriated (Pr 5:19, 20+), note: NIV translates “be captivated”
Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament) (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

@Rose, you mention King David’s sin of adultery and murder. There is a difference from being forgiven and having a sin paid for. Being forgiven by G-d has always been about the heart and the turning away from the sin. Do not the scriptures say “Man looks on the outward appearance and G-d looks at the heart (1 Sam 16:7)?” The whole sacrificial system is about teaching man there is a price for sin and not all sin is the same. There are common/typical sins and more serious sins. G-d is a teacher and the purpose for torah is to teach and guide us in G-ds ways and after his heart. We are not to look at the torah in a legalistic way but Paul is clear the torah is spiritual and holy. We are to learn the spiritual lessons and not be wrapped up in the letter (although the letter is important but it should never be put above the spirit of the torah.)

So, yes David was forgiven but G-d gave no remedy for his sin to be paid. David received a judgment/curse from G-d he would have to bare his entire life (2 Sam 12:10-15). He would have to wait for Jesus to pay that sin for him but he truly repented and G-d did forgive. G-d didn’t give one set of rules to the Jews at Mt. Sinai and then say “Sorry, I know I gave you this torah and I just knew you never could do it but I commanded you to to keep all of it anyway or I will punish you. So I just set you all up for failure and now I’m going to scrap it and give this new torah of grace. That is in my opinion not the character of G-d. Even David admits there is no sacrifice that G-d wants for his sin of adultery and murder. G-d wants a broken and contrite heart.

Psalm 51 was written to express David’s repentance after his adulteress affair with Bathsheba: Verses 16 -17 ring clearly: “For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.”

Also when it comes to the Day of Atonement not “ALL” sins were atoned for. We have to be careful how the word “ALL” and “WHOLE” is used in the bible. It doesn’t always mean 100%. From the Hebrew usage in their culture It can just mean a large number. There are many examples in the bible where the word “ALL and “Whole” do not mean 100%. Just ask any messianic Jew or Orthodox about the Day of Atonement. In Lev 16:30 it simply means all the sins the torah allows to be paid for which is only unintentional sins. The purpose for the Day of Atonement was to cover any of the unintentional sins someone may have forgotten to ask for over the course of the year. That was the whole purpose of the 10 days of Awe. G-d is so awesome. He was always looking and wanting his people to repent.

The Rabbis were insistent that (Mishnah Yoma 8:9):

‘If a man said “I will sin and repent, and sin again and repent”, he will be given no chance to repent. [If he said] “I will sin and the Day of Atonement will effect Atonement”, then the Day of Atonement effects no atonement...’

so that ‘high-handed sins’ were seen not to be forgiven. Therefore there was the need for humility not just on this Day but in the entire year between one Yom Kippur ceremony and the next.

Also in TWOT it is stated there was no sacrifice provided for High Handed Sins (serious sins against G-d) which is why we needed Jesus to bring a better sacrifice for us! Which is my main point of this whole discussion? The torah didn’t cover every signal sin man would commit. G-d was leading us to Jesus as the perfect sacrifice but not to the abolishment of the torah. It was to expand the already existing torah to a higher place. G-ds torah is eternal from Adam to Jesus.
TWOT
To return to šĕgāgâ, a sin of this type may result from two causes: negligence or ignorance. Either the perpetrator knows the law but unintentionally violates it as in the case of accidental homicide (Num 35:22ff.: Deut 19:4–10; Josh 20:2–6, 9), or he acts without knowing he did wrong. Some illustrations of sins in this category would be: Gen 20:9 (Abimelech’s complaint to Abraham): Num 22:34 (Balaam: “I have sinned. I did not know you were standing in my path”). In opposition to these are sins committed with a “high hand” (Num 15:30) for which there is no atonement by any means of sacrifice. Here the NT believer can sense’ something of the inadequacy of the Levitical sacrificial system. The inability of this system to provide a sacrifice even for the presumptuous sin points to the way of a better sacrifice, that found in Christ.
Hamilton, V. P. (1999). 2324 שָׁגַג. In R. L. Harris, G. L. Archer, Jr. & B. K. Waltke (Eds.), Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (R. L. Harris, G. L. Archer, Jr. & B. K. Waltke, Ed.) (electronic ed.) (904). Chicago: Moody Press.

[Vic]

Hi Tony,

One of the things that becomes an issue from the Christian perspective is you are getting your understanding from the Talmud whose writers rejected Jesus Christ and the New Testament. Their interpretations and understandings of Scripture were and are therefore far different than what those Jews who fully believed Christ, even in those days. The 613, is strictly a rabbinic declaration and understanding that varies depending which sages writings are accessed even today.. It is not how we as Christians view or interpret Scripture.

From a Christian perspective, under the New Covenant---promised by God and not to be according to or the same as the Sinai Covenant, which God declared Israel broke, but is based on God's law [not the Sinai covenant] written on the hearts, offered, as other Scriptures show, to all mankind, Jew and Gentiles. Jer 31 It's clearly stated it is NOT the same as what was given to the 'fathers'. Therefore we know it is not the same.

Because of Christ, there is no distinction between sins or sinners. All have sinned and regardless of intent or whatever spin one wishes to put upon sin, it all needs God's forgiveness through Jesus Christ. Or we have no acces to the Father.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Vic]

Tony you mention the Day of Atonement dealing with particular sins, but not all sins, and the 10 days of awe. The day of atonement is found connected to the celebration of Rosh Hashanah.

From the Hebrew Roots Faqs & Myths > http://www.seekgod.ca/hr/hrfaqs4b.htm

Quote: ...We need to celebrate the Feast of Trumpets-Yom Teruah-Rosh Hashana ...The name "Rosh Hashanah" is not used in the Bible. Instead, the Bible refers to it as Yom Ha-Zikkaron (the day of remembrance) or Yom Teruah (the day of the sounding of the shofar).

What many are not aware of is that the actual day commanded by God for the Biblical head of the year is in March or April (Nisan/Aviv). Yom Teruah (the day of trumpets) is on the first day of the seventh month, but not Rosh Hashanah (New Year) according to the Bible. Rosh Hashanah should be celebrated the first of aviv (when the barley is ripe) which has been changed to Nisan -generally falling in March or April. It is a rabbinical addition and tradition that has changed Rosh Hashanah to being the beginning of the year celebrated in the seventh month (tishrei).

Exo 12:2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.

It is called the first month in

Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover.

Num 28:16 And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD.

As stated Nisan /aviv usually falls around March/April on our western calendars. It is the month that Passover was commanded to be observed and the month Christ was crucified and rose from the grave in. The significance of these events cannot be overlooked. Christ fulfilled the feasts, and when He rose, it was the new beginning of the new covenant, and all who believed being new creations in Him. He was the firstfuit and it is no wonder that Rosh Hashanah needed to be changed from the Biblical commandments according to rabbinic traditions. That is, by the Talmud which contains much against Christ. To have Rosh Hashanah fall when the focus is on the recognized time for Christ, with focus on sin and repentance, which is what the Passover signifies and the Passover Lamb--and Christ who is our Passover Lamb once for all. That would explain why it has to be part of something being waited for, versus the new beginning and new life in Christ. Instead of focusing on days of repentance which could lead to Passover with Rosh Hashanah, the focus is on more celebrations and festivities.

Rosh Hashanah, which is now celebrated in the 7th month, which means “New Year”, according to Jewish tradition commemorates creation and is the imminent arrival of God’s judgment in Judaism. On this day, it is said that God inspects the books of judgment for every person. It is advantageous, then, for Jews to repent of their sin, and excise sin as well before that day [the month prior, called Elul]. It is a time of reviewing the past year to see if they owe anyone money or favors, as well as returning borrowed items. The days between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur [Day of Atonement] are considered the “Days of Awe” in which tradition teaches that the things one does during that time will guarantee how the year will go for them in regard to the judgment of God. It is believed this is also the time that God decides who will live or die in the coming year.

There is not much information in the Bible on the The Feast of Trumpets. We do know that it required a sacrifice for sin and therefore, for Christians we know that final sacrifice was made by Christ and is fulfilled completely in Christ.. As noted above, Leviticus 23:24-25 proclaim the time, and Numbers 29:1-6 expands on what was to be done. Please note again verse 5.

Num 29:5 and one he-goat for a sin-offering, to make atonement for you;

Messianics and those who call themselves Torah keepers say we have to obey the Law and keep these feasts. That would mean they are required to make the offerings by fire. Do they? and to whom do they take the animals mentioned in that passage? And what of the he-goat for a sin offering to make atonement for sin? Forgotten are these truths about Jesus Christ, who died once for all.

Hebrews 9:11-15 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12. Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14. How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15. And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 10:1-12 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Some are proclaiming that the Days of Awe (Days of Repentance) begin September 19, 2009 with Rosh HaShannah, the Feast of Trumpets, and with the climax on the Day of Atonement, which they claim is the only Biblically required Fast Day. That being, Yom Kippur which falls on September 26, 2009. They posit that those who have been born again should have a much stronger desire to 'Biblically observe' the Day of Atonement Feast of the Lord, because of being forgiven and having repentance and faith. That desire is viewed as being much greater than those who don't know God through repentance and faith in 'Messiah.' It is stated how important it is to find the "Grace of God" evidenced in repentance in the Days of Awe."

The fast is connected with the Day of Atonement [Yom Kippur] and the days of awe [the 10 days between The feast of Trumpets and Yom Kippur]. There is no fast in the scriptures relating to any of the feasts. It is a Rabbinical addition, as are the Days of Awe. There is a great deal of emphasis on repentance and a change of heart during this time. However, for the Christian, this season of repentance is not necessary or ever instructed in the NT. All we need do is confess our sins and they are forgiven. It is sad that Messianics feel the need to take on a tradition that is unnecessary for atonement. It is has already been accomplished in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, alone. Any other practice denigrates and overturns the sacrifice of Christ.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 3:23-26 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

What's it about?

The Jewish New Year falls on the Feast of Trumpets which is actually in the 7th month of the year, according to the Jewish calendar, not the Biblical. Why do Messianics and those in Hebrew Roots observe this holiday when there is nothing in Scripture to support it? Why have Christians now embraced this holiday and prophetically promote Rosh Hashanah as when the Rapture will happen or others, who time the second return of Christ with the Feast of Trumpets?

As part of the Feast of Trumpets [Yom Terah], tradition in Judaism has the blowing of trumpets in the synagogues, heralding the New Year.

Here's some further discussion concerning what those in Judaism teach regarding these events.

"The month of Elul is the final month in the Jewish year. This month is a particularly propitious time for prayer, self introspection, and repentance. It is a time of intense spiritual preparation for the coming year and the upcoming holiday of Rosh Hashanah. This year (2009/5770) the month of Elul begins on Friday August 21, 2009 and lasts through September 18, 2009.

Rosh Hashanah is the first and second days of the first Jewish month of Tishrei. It marks the beginning of the Jewish new year. The celebration of this holiday is marked with solemnity, as it is the day on which the whole world is judged for the coming year. Rosh Hashanah is the birthday of the world, as it was on this day that G-d created Man on the 6th day of creation. Every year, on this day, we proclaim G-d as our one and true King.” 1

“In particular, the first festival of the year, Rosh Hashanah, seems to fit no familiar mold. It is the day on which we tremulously submit to the divine sovereignty and crown G-d as our king, but as the Chassidic masters point out, a coronation is always a festive event, with bands playing in the streets and crowds picnicking in the parks and fields. It is the day on which we stand in judgment before G-d, the day on which the Heavenly Court rules "who shall live and who shall die...who shall be impoverished and who shall be enriched... who shall fall and who shall rise"; but also the day on which we "eat lush foods and drink sweets... for the joy of the Eternal is your strength." The Talmud offers the image of a person coming to court where a life-or-death verdict will be handed down on him, but he is dressed in white and has a feast awaiting him at home, confident that he will triumph in his trial.” 2

“Rosh Hashanah occurs on the first and second days of Tishri. In Hebrew, Rosh Hashanah means, literally, "head of the year" or "first of the year." Rosh Hashanah is commonly known as the Jewish New Year ... the Jewish New Year is a time to begin introspection, looking back at the mistakes of the past year and planning the changes to make in the new year. More on this concept at Days of Awe.

The name "Rosh Hashanah" is not used in the Bible to discuss this holiday. The Bible refers to the holiday as Yom Ha-Zikkaron (the day of remembrance) or Yom Teruah (the day of the sounding of the shofar). The holiday is instituted in Leviticus 23:24-25.” 3

“The ten days starting with Rosh Hashanah and ending with Yom Kippur are commonly known as the Days of Awe (Yamim Noraim) or the Days of Repentance. This is a time for serious introspection, a time to consider the sins of the previous year and repent before Yom Kippur.

One of the ongoing themes of the Days of Awe is the concept that G-d has "books" that he writes our names in, writing down who will live and who will die, who will have a good life and who will have a bad life, for the next year. These books are written in on Rosh Hashanah, but our actions during the Days of Awe can alter G-d's decree. The actions that change the decree are "teshuvah, tefilah and tzedakah," repentance, prayer, good deeds (usually, charity). These "books" are sealed on Yom Kippur. This concept of writing in books is the source of the common greeting during this time is "May you be inscribed and sealed for a good year."

Among the customs of this time, it is common to seek reconciliation with people you may have wronged during the course of the year. The Talmud maintains that Yom Kippur atones only for sins between man and G-d. To atone for sins against another person, you must first seek reconciliation with that person, righting the wrongs you committed against them if possible.” 4

“The beginning of the month of Elul marks the one month notice until the "Divine audit" on Rosh Hashana. Throughout the month of Elul, Jews search for every receipt and credit slip left by their behavior. "Did I belittle the secretary who couldn't remember my name?" "Did I borrow $20 and forget to return it?" "Did I...?"

Elul is the time to look back over the past year, sort out our strengths and weaknesses, and see what impact our deeds have had. Like sorting the receipts, we can put our actions into little piles: wrong to G-d, our fellow humans or even ourselves, and good to G-d, our fellow humans or ourselves. Sometimes an action may fall into several categories. Reviewing our behavior is, according to the Medieval scholar Rabbi Moses ben Maimon (Maimonides), the beginning of the first step in teshuva, repentance. The Jewish view of repentance goes much farther than mere regret. Teshuva is a pro-active process that recognizes our fallibility and our ability to change.

On Rosh Hashana G-d holds each man and woman accountable for his or her actions over the last year ... While people should strive to improve themselves throughout the year, as the month of Elul begins and the Shofar is sounded, we are reminded that there is just one month left. Thirty days remain to check one's balance and settle old accounts. By using Elul to prepare, one is able to face the Divine audit on Rosh Hashana with clarity and confidence, knowing that one has moved towards his/her spiritual goal and has made a better connection with the power of the day, and with G-d.” 5 [/b]

One of the Jewish traditions of Rosh Hashanah is Tashlich. This is the practice of bringing pieces of bread in one’s pockets and then going to a fast moving stream or river and casting the bread on the water. The bread represents sin being cast and swept away by the current.

For those who follow Christ, this practice is completely contradictory to salvation and the full remission of sins that we have in Christ. Upon confession and repentance to God for sin, He forgives immediately. It is a simple, beautiful thing that we have the assurance of this forgiveness and do not need to spend days preparing and then casting our sins in free flowing water, represented by bread. God is the one who has cast our sins as far as the east is from the west, and as deep as the sea.

Psalm 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
Psa 103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Micah 7:18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.
Mic 7:19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.
Mic 7:20 Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Observing Rosh Hashanah, which was developed by the sages/Rabbis of Judaism who do not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah - and as Rosh Hashanah is Judaism's tradition and practice, cannot have a place in the life of a believer in Jesus Christ. Rosh Hashanah denies the finished work of Christ and is a man-made system that has no merit in one’s relationship with the Lord....

Footnotes:

1. http://www.torah.org/learning/yomtov/roshhashanah/

2. http://www.chabad.org/holidays/JewishNew...uction.htm

3. http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday2.htm

4. http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday3.htm

5. http://www.njop.org/html/Roshessay.html

... end quotes

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:@Rose, Well I thank you again for bringing up Lev 6 because it caused me to continue to dig and I did find that that the certain trespass the person does in Lev 6 does fall into the category of “unintentional sin.” The typical English translation to “intentional” and “unintentional” doesn’t necessarily render the Hebrew sense of the word/phrase in a way that a modern English speaker would use.

Olive I have quoted a short part of your response to save on space but where in the passage are you referring to?
This is Lev 6

Lev 6:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 6:2 If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour;
Lev 6:3 Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein:
Lev 6:4 Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty, that he shall restore that which he took violently away, or the thing which he hath deceitfully gotten, or that which was delivered him to keep, or the lost thing which he found,
Lev 6:5 Or all that about which he hath sworn falsely; he shall even restore it in the principal, and shall add the fifth part more thereto, and give it unto him to whom it appertaineth, in the day of his trespass offering.
Lev 6:6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest:
Lev 6:7 And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Which words were you referring to in your post as I don't see the words intentiona or non intentional there.What I do see are sins which are intentional and are done with awareness of wrong doing as opposed to those which are done unconsciously or not realising that the acts were wrong.

Quote:Also when it comes to the Day of Atonement not “ALL” sins were atoned for. We have to be careful how the word “ALL” and “WHOLE” is used in the bible. It doesn’t always mean 100%. From the Hebrew usage in their culture It can just mean a large number. There are many examples in the bible where the word “ALL and “Whole” do not mean 100%. Just ask any messianic Jew or Orthodox about the Day of Atonement. In Lev 16:30 it simply means all the sins the torah allows to be paid for which is only unintentional sins. The purpose for the Day of Atonement was to cover any of the unintentional sins someone may have forgotten to ask for over the course of the year. That was the whole purpose of the 10 days of Awe. G-d is so awesome. He was always looking and wanting his people to repent.

In this case the word is all(mi'kol) in the hebrew is from all and if it didn't mean all why would God say all.Wouldn't he have instead said some or part but He said all.
I can understand that there are cases in the Bible where all can mean a large number but context is crucial and in the day of Atonement the people were forgiven all their sins not just some.
The concept of the ten days of awe and atonement in Judaism today is very different to what the Bible taught.I know that in Judaism there is a teaching that says that the Day of Atonement only atones for those sins repented for but I take it you are saying something different.
You are telling me that the "all"s in Lev 6 don't really mean all yet a literal reading of Leviticus leads the reader to conclude that all the sins were forgiven on that day.Intentional and non intentional.Can you explain to me why you don't believe the word all there means all?

[Wild Olive]

Hello Vic and Rose,

I can see we have two totally different approaches to the scriptures. My approach from the Hebrew perspective is what I believe to be the most accurate and I respectfully can see your view is very different. I do appreciate all the effort you have put into this but I can see my approach will always be met with the thought Christianity and Judaism are two different religions. Which I respectfully disagree. Jesus never came to start a new religion called Christianity but to bring the first century Judaism to its proper goal (which in many ways had gotten off track by mans lust for power). Every verse Vic quoted from her perspective i would have a totally different view and interpretation. I agree today's Judaism is not at all like the first century when Jesus lived. In many ways it has evolved in the wrong direction. The points I have made are what I believe from a first century point of view. I do not believe all the Talmud is ant-christ (but that's just me). Thank you for the opportunity to share my thoughts. You all have been very kind!
Blessings to all of you!

[Rose of Shushan]

Hi Olive
are you saying goodbye?I hope not as I have enjoyed our discussions and I'm sure many readers will have also.
I do happen to understand where you're coming from as I believed many of the things you hold to at one time also.
Christianity and Judaism are two different religions..and within themselves there is also a degree of variation within beliefs.I guess neither of them have got it totally "right".
What I also disagree with is that you have a first century perspective.You have what you think is a first century perspective.
You say that you have a different interpretation for every verse quoted, so why do you not post and discusss on them? That is what we are here for no? To discuss

[Vic]

HI Tony,

The problem is you keep saying you are understanding from the Hebrew perspective. And unless you are a practicing Jew ie Judaism, you are not understanding from that perspective. If you are Hebrew roots, then you are not understanding from a Jewish aka Hebrew perspective but a combination of Jewish and other beliefs melded into becoming Hebrew roots. It's not the same, either as Judaism or Christianity. And yes, you absolutely believe you are correct.

Christianity and Judaism are different beliefs because of Christ. Christianity encompasses Jews and Gentiles who believe Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets--all the prophecies concerning the Messiah and so on. Judaism rejects that belief and interprets the law and the prophets completely different because of it. Their sages rejected Christ, even though many Jews believed Christ to be the promised Messiah. So yes they are different beliefs and hence different interpretations, right from Genesis 1 onward. And they do not accept the New Testament whatsoever, so, if you believe Christ like you say you do, how can you source writers and writings that reject Him, and as the interpretation of Scripture we should follow?

I agree with Rose. If you see things differently and understand things differently you should be able to continue this discussion. Just as you have been doing, presenting your interpretation which has consistently been different than ours. Yet discussion has taken place. I had hoped you would not only address what is stated in this thread but the thread about Did Christ Abolish the Law, where you could have answered specific issues and questions put to you.

You say not all the Talmud denigrates Christ, but it was written by the same people who reject and denigrate Christ and wrote of those things within the Talmud. And are believed by Judaism today. You say you would interpret the Scriptures I gave differently, but the Talmud isn't Scripture nor are the books of the kabbalah. I posted Scripture, and Scripture interprets Scripture, so I am not sure what one has to do with the other. You say you interpret the Scriptures correctly but when shown that some of what you are believing is not in the Scriptures, you don't wish to dialogue any further.

Unfortunately this happens so often, where dialogue ceases when it just gets going and beliefs are challenged, and questions left unanswered according to facts or the Scriptures. I think it's very sad. I hope you will reconsider.