Speaking in Tongues

[chelsea]

vic, i am surprised you remember me from a few years ago when i left the pentecostal church and started searching for a good church! On that time i found a brethren church very good but many things were lacking in order to keep me there once i received the blessing of two children, they are naow 4 and 2 years old! So I moved to a church of england, I don't think it is bad at all, but they seem to be very democratic, it is hard to know in what they believe, but the bible study group is going to be a blessing and hopefully they will come to a biblical based conclusion!
I loved that you made this forum, It seems easier to contact you, and more friendly too, It doesn't feel virtual at all! I would like to see a photo of you though! one day...

x

[Vic]

(05-19-2009 08:04 AM)chelsea Wrote:  vic, i am surprised you remember me from a few years ago when i left the pentecostal church and started searching for a good church! On that time i found a brethren church very good but many things were lacking in order to keep me there once i received the blessing of two children, they are naow 4 and 2 years old! So I moved to a church of england, I don't think it is bad at all, but they seem to be very democratic, it is hard to know in what they believe, but the bible study group is going to be a blessing and hopefully they will come to a biblical based conclusion!
I loved that you made this forum, It seems easier to contact you, and more friendly too, It doesn't feel virtual at all! I would like to see a photo of you though! one day...

x

Hi Chelsea,

I seem to remember many of the people I correspond with, the good and not so good. I wished I could have been of more help to you at the time. The last 2 yrs I have not been able to keep up with email. Which is somewhat why the forum. Glad you like the forum, and hope it will encourage you.

I am afraid I don't have much in the way of pictures of me. So this is as close as it gets.

I do look forward to when we all meet in the Lord. I think it will be most amazing, with the best being, our seeing our Lord and Savior face to face. What a day that will be.

[sheep wrecked]

I ran across an interesting article about tongues - it's quite lengthy - done in chapters. I thought I would share part of what I have read so far, comparing the linguistic and psychological part of glossolalia [tongues]:

Quote:VIII. Summary

Glossolalia is an unusual pattern of aberrant speech. Areview of the current research data provides a new source of information for examining the phenomena of glossolalia. If is a nodification of the conscious connection between inner speech and outer speech. The meaning and function of glossolalia is closely tied to its social and cultural context. The historic theological debates concerning glossolalia centered on whether it was of divine or devilish origin. Such debate is irrelevant. Glossolalia, as such, is not a spiritual phenomea, but is may be a result of deep and meaningful spiritual exercise.

Whether we agree with these conclusions or not, the research referred to in the article reveals that glossolalia today is actually abbreviations of known languages. Note the following quotations:

5A. Structural Linguistics of Glossolalia

A number of studies on American English-speaking glossolalists have recently been done. These reports vary somewhat in the specific technical conclusions, but in general there is consistency in the conclusions. The differences seem to be due to the fact that glossolalic speech has different degrees of organization. Some glossolalia is very poorly organized and consists of little more than grunts and barely-formed sounds, while other glossolalia is highly organized into a systematic series of vowels and consonants. Several language studies, including our own, suggest that glossolalists develop their speech from ill-formed structure to "practiced" and "polished" glossolalic speech. Thus the quality of glossolalia depends to some extent on the stage of development of glossolalia.

The following seem to be reasonable conclusions from these studies. Glossolalia, in English-speaking subjects, is composed of the basic speech elements of English. The major difference consists of a lack of organization of the basic vowels and consonants into the elements necessary for intelligible speech. The elements of speech such as pauses, breaths, intonations, etc., are greatly reduced or changed. Thus glossolalic speech tends to resemble the early speech qualities of young children before they organize all the various parts of the adult language. Further, there is a reduced number of vowels and consonants used. The conclusions of the linguists is that glossolalia has the characteristics of partially formed language, while lacking certain requirements of true language.

Indeed, many of the qualities of glossolalic speech are those found in the speech of young children. A comparison of Devereaux's outline of children's speech and glossolalic speech is striking. On this basis, one may suggest that glossolalic speech appears to be a return to an early way of speaking, in which speaking and sound are used for purposes other than just the communication of thought. This idea gets further support from other data to be cited.

Another line of investigation has focused on the duplication of glossolalia under experimental rather than religious conditions. Al Carlson, at the University of California, recorded two types of glossolalia. One type was recorded by volunteers who were asked to spontaneously speak in unknown language without having ever heard glossolalia. These speech samples were then rated and the two types of glossolalia could not be distinguished from each other. In fact, the "contrived" received better ratings as "good glossolalia" than did the actual glossolalia.

Werner Cohn, at the University of British Columbia, took naïve students to Pentecostal churches to hear glossolalia and then asked the students to speak in glossolalia in the laboratory. They were able to successfully do so. Their recordings were then played to glossolalists who described the glossolalia as beautiful examples.

In sum, the data suggest: that glossolalia has a specific language structure based on the language tongue of the speaker; that the linguistic organization is limited; and that the capacity to speak in this type of semi-organized language can be duplicated under experimental conditions. Thus, glossolalia does not appear to be a "strange language," but rather the aborted or incomplete formation of familiar language.

This research clearly undercuts the claims of glossolalists that they speak a "heavenly language." In reality they are speaking abbreviations of their national language.

Another interesting article appeared in the New York Times, January 21, 1974:

JohnP. Kildahl, a clinical psychologist and professor at New York Theological Seminary, said here today that the Pentecostal practice of speaking in tongues constituted "learned behavior."

Dr. Kildahl, an ordained Lutheran clergyman and former chief psychologist at the Lutheran Medical Center in Brooklyn, recently published a study of glossolalia undertaken with a grant form the National Institute of Mental Health.

In his address, he said that on the basis of his research and extensive correspondence with charismatic Christians it appeared that five elements were normally present when someone began speaking in tongues. These are a "magnetic" relationship with a group leader, a sense of personal distress, and "intense emotional atmosphere," a supporting group, and the prior learning of a rationale of its religious significance. In the case of people who begin to speak in tongues when they alone, he said "these five conditions have been present in the days or weeks preceding the initial experience."

Kildahl in his book The Psychology of Speaking in Tongues, further explains how glossolalia is initiated:

How the Experience is Initiated

Typically after an ordinary evening church service, interested members of the congregation are invited to remain in church in order to discuss the gift of tongues. The leader encourages the people to "receive" this ability going from one another laying his hands on each person's head. "Say after me what I say, and then go on speaking in the tongue that the Lord will give you." One might utter a few syllables, speak for two or three minutes, or ten, or not for several days and while at home. "It was the best I ever felt in all my thirty-one years."

Once possessed of this ability, a person retains it and can speak with fluency whenever he chooses. It does not matter whether he is alone or in a group of fellow glossolalists. He can speak in tongues while driving a car or swimming. He can do it silently in the midst of a party, or aloud before a large audience. The experience brings peace and joy and inner harmony. Glossolalists view it as an answer to prayer, an assurance of divine love and acceptance. It is referred to as a "direct and personal encounter with the holy Spirit."

How do we explain tongues today? As has been noted, tongues-speaking is also practiced in many heathen religions throughout the world today. Certainly this is not the work of the holy Spirit. Perhaps Behavioral Scientists are correct in saying that much of tongues-speaking has a natural explanation. However, this much is observable - when a person has experienced tongues he is absolutely convinced as to the scripturalness of his experience and the correctness of his doctrinal beliefs. Hence the traditional Pentecostal insists on the correctness of the "second blessing." The theologically liberal Protestant who speaks in tongues feels that his doubt in the inspiration of the Bible is vindicated. Catholic Pentecostals testify that the charismatic experience has deepened their devotion to Mary. A glossolalic experience convinces Mormons that their brand of Christianity is right, etc. Thus, while tongues may not be directly caused by Satan yet it can be used by him as an effective means of sidetracking sincere Christians. The following scriptures reveal that one of the signs of the end of the world or age would be the phenomenal working deceptions of Satan in the Church. "And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matt. 24:2 and 24

"Even his, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." 2 Thes. 2:9-11

Satan's involvement in the charismatic wonders cannot be ruled out as part of the deceptive wonders at the end of the age.

For the entire article see:

http://www.bible411.com/glossolalia/chapter4.htm

[OneLight]

Yes, Satan does mock God in every way imaginable. That does not mean that the gifts are not for today. I have witnessed tongues that are not of God and have witnessed those that are. There is a big difference. When in doubt, we do have scripture ...

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Why is this under Christian "New Age" beliefs??? New Age and Christianity have nothing to do with each other.

[sheep wrecked]

(05-21-2009 10:01 PM)OneLight Wrote:  Yes, Satan does mock God in every way imaginable. That does not mean that the gifts are not for today. I have witnessed tongues that are not of God and have witnessed those that are. There is a big difference. When in doubt, we do have scripture ...

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Why is this under Christian "New Age" beliefs??? New Age and Christianity have nothing to do with each other.

Christianity is being flooded with New Age concepts, so we have this part of the forum for discussing these things - like mediation, yoga, wicca, breath prayers, mantras, mazing, prayer circles, mysticism and the like. Tongues is a mystic experience so it's included.

There is no record of tongues after the first century. There were brought on the scene late in the 1800s and then give a boost in early 1900. By the 1950-60s they exploded. They were "birthed" out of corrupt sources.

The problem is that those speaking in tongues say that Jesus is the Son of God. It is the subtle twist that proves this spirit false, denying His Deity, but it takes some research to discover the connections and most people are instead quite taken by the ethereal experience. It seems that the church relies more on feelings than truth

[OneLight]

(05-22-2009 10:27 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(05-21-2009 10:01 PM)OneLight Wrote:  Yes, Satan does mock God in every way imaginable. That does not mean that the gifts are not for today. I have witnessed tongues that are not of God and have witnessed those that are. There is a big difference. When in doubt, we do have scripture ...

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Why is this under Christian "New Age" beliefs??? New Age and Christianity have nothing to do with each other.

Christianity is being flooded with New Age concepts, so we have this part of the forum for discussing these things - like mediation, yoga, wicca, breath prayers, mantras, mazing, prayer circles, mysticism and the like. Tongues is a mystic experience so it's included.

There is no record of tongues after the first century. There were brought on the scene late in the 1800s and then give a boost in early 1900. By the 1950-60s they exploded. They were "birthed" out of corrupt sources.

The problem is that those speaking in tongues say that Jesus is the Son of God. It is the subtle twist that proves this spirit false, denying His Deity, but it takes some research to discover the connections and most people are instead quite taken by the ethereal experience. It seems that the church relies more on feelings than truth

Hmmm, I pray in tongues and say Jesus is God, being of the triune Godhead, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. As it tells us in 1 Corinthians 12-14, there are gifts and they will be given as He sees fit, not as man sees fit.

Some will argue that they ceased, using scripture from 1 Corinthians 13:10; "But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. " Well, Christ has not come yet. For those who say that "that which is perfect" points to the bible, I ask how "that which is in part will be done away with." has come about? We still see through a glass darkly or in a mirror dimly. It will not be until we are with Him that this will occur.

Prophesy is also a gift that we are told will fail, as tongues will cease, in 1 Cor 13:8, but we also read in Acts 2:17; ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,Your young men shall see visions,Your old men shall dream dreams.

What are the last days to you, my friend?

[sheep wrecked]

(05-22-2009 01:34 PM)OneLight Wrote:  Hmmm, I pray in tongues and say Jesus is God, being of the triune Godhead, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. As it tells us in 1 Corinthians 12-14, there are gifts and they will be given as He sees fit, not as man sees fit.

I prayed in tongues too, for 7 years. I also believed that Jesus is God [still believe it]. Testing the spirits is testing the root of the manifestation. Tongues was given and then passed along by men who did not believe Jesus is God. It is not hard for satan to speak through someone, as he did with Peter. That does not make one possessed, just simply deceived.

Quote:Some will argue that they ceased, using scripture from 1 Corinthians 13:10; "But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. " Well, Christ has not come yet. For those who say that "that which is perfect" points to the bible, I ask how "that which is in part will be done away with." has come about? We still see through a glass darkly or in a mirror dimly. It will not be until we are with Him that this will occur.

If " but when *that* which is perfect has come" is Christ - would you call Him a "that"? tongues was for unbelievers, not believers, which is how tongues are used today. The doctrine is that tongues proves one is saved. The tongues of the NT proved that Jesus is the Messiah to unbelievers.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

What was known in part was the incomplete Word of God, making prophecy necessary. Once the Word of God was complete [at the death of the apostles] the "part" or prophecy was done away.

Quote:Prophesy is also a gift that we are told will fail, as tongues will cease, in 1 Cor 13:8, but we also read in Acts 2:17; ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,Your young men shall see visions,Your old men shall dream dreams.

The disciples thought they were in the last days. It is a period of time known only to God.

Peter stated clearly that Joel 2 was fulfilled in Christ and on the day of Pentecost - through the Apostles and their authority. Once they died, it was completed fully.


Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, said God, I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Act 2:22 You men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the middle of you, as you yourselves also know:

[OneLight]

(05-22-2009 08:32 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(05-22-2009 01:34 PM)OneLight Wrote:  Hmmm, I pray in tongues and say Jesus is God, being of the triune Godhead, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. As it tells us in 1 Corinthians 12-14, there are gifts and they will be given as He sees fit, not as man sees fit.

I prayed in tongues too, for 7 years. I also believed that Jesus is God [still believe it]. Testing the spirits is testing the root of the manifestation. Tongues was given and then passed along by men who did not believe Jesus is God. It is not hard for satan to speak through someone, as he did with Peter. That does not make one possessed, just simply deceived.

Quote:Some will argue that they ceased, using scripture from 1 Corinthians 13:10; "But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. " Well, Christ has not come yet. For those who say that "that which is perfect" points to the bible, I ask how "that which is in part will be done away with." has come about? We still see through a glass darkly or in a mirror dimly. It will not be until we are with Him that this will occur.

If " but when *that* which is perfect has come" is Christ - would you call Him a "that"? tongues was for unbelievers, not believers, which is how tongues are used today. The doctrine is that tongues proves one is saved. The tongues of the NT proved that Jesus is the Messiah to unbelievers.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

What was known in part was the incomplete Word of God, making prophecy necessary. Once the Word of God was complete [at the death of the apostles] the "part" or prophecy was done away.

Quote:Prophesy is also a gift that we are told will fail, as tongues will cease, in 1 Cor 13:8, but we also read in Acts 2:17; ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,Your young men shall see visions,Your old men shall dream dreams.

The disciples thought they were in the last days. It is a period of time known only to God.

Peter stated clearly that Joel 2 was fulfilled in Christ and on the day of Pentecost - through the Apostles and their authority. Once they died, it was completed fully.


Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, said God, I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Act 2:22 You men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the middle of you, as you yourselves also know:

Each to their own. You can keep Him in the box if you like. I will not disrespect this site by debating the issue.

God Bless See you when He arrives, then we can ask Him which is correct ...

[chelsea]

DOESN'T MATTER IF THE PERFECT IS THE BIBLE OR JESUS!!! LOOK AT THE VERBS!!! taken from an article:
The End of Tongues
If the stated purpose of "tongues" was a sign to unbelieving Israel, particularly of the impending judgment by the Romans and destruction of the leadership of Israel, it stands to reason that once the judgment came, tongues could no longer function as a sign of impending judgment. And this is what Paul seems to say in 1 Cor. 13.
1 Cor 13:8-10
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
(NASB)
Three things are said to end in verse 8 - prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. These are spiritual gifts mentioned elsewhere in the NT. However, in the case of "prophecy" and "knowledge," both are said to be "done away" at some point. This is translated from the Greek word "katargêthêsontai," (first future passive of katargeô). Essentially, it means to be made inopperative by something else. Verse 10 tells us what will cause prophecy and knowledge to be made inoperative - when "that which is perfect is come." It is clear that both prophecy and knowledge (as spiritual gifts) would be made inoperative when "that which is perfect" comes. This will occur at a distinct point in time. When "that which is perfect is come" that is when "prophecy" and "knowledge" will be done away. (Whether you view this event as the coming of Christ's Kingdom, or the completion of the Scriptures, is really irrelevant to the issue of 'tongues' in this article).
However, in the case of tongues, Paul used a different word. He says "tongues shall cease." The word "cease" is the Greek word "pausontai," (future middle indicative of pauô). A.T. Robertson says this means "they shall make themselves cease or automatically cease of themselves." Essentially, the difference between these two Greek words is "katargêthêsontai" means to be caused to cease by something else (in this case the coming of "that which is perfect"), but "pausontai" means to cease of its own accord (not related to anything else). This means that unlike "prophecy" and "knowledge," "tongues" will NOT cease at the same time, when "that which is perfect is come." In fact, if tongues ceases of itself, its ceasation cannot be connected with the coming of "that which is perfect" at all!
That Paul is not speaking of "tongues" ceasing when "that which is perfect is come," is also clear from verse 9, where he ONLY mentioned "prophecy" and "knowledge" as being "in part," and being done away when "that which is perfect is come" in verse 10. Notice he never said that "tongues" was "in part," or connected its ceasation in any way with the coming of "that which is perfect."
This begs the question, when does/did tongues cease? If the coming of "that which is perfect" does not cause tongues to cease, then logic demands that "tongues" either ceased earlier, or else will continue after "that which is perfect is come." Had Paul meant that tongues would continue into the Millennium, then it seems rather odd that Paul would even mention it as ceasing at all. Why? Because there would be no apparent end in view. If tongues continue in the Millennium, then Paul's point, that faith, hope and love, continue after the gifts end would not be made from his mentioning "tongues." His mention of "tongues" would not be an effective example to make his point. Furthermore, Paul wrote in the next chapter that "tongues" are for a sign for unbelievers. This would seem a bit redundant in the Millennium, with Jesus Himself present! Therefore, to be consistent with Paul's point and with the grammar of the Greek text, we must understand that tongues would cease of its own accord PRIOR to the coming of "that which is perfect."
Since Paul told us in 1 Cor. 14 that "tongues" were the fulfillment of Isaiah 28, once the PURPOSE for tongues ended there could be no more sign. And, as Paul indicated, "tongues" ceased of itself. That is, it just faded away. From the biblical data, we can assume that those with the gift still had it, but it was not given to others on an ongoing basis. The destruction of Jerusalem did not itself cause tongues to cease. But, the fulfillment of the prophecy of which tonges were the sign, in effect made tongues no longer necessary or effective. And so it simply ceased of its own accord.
Church history bears this out. Tongues did indeed cease at about AD 70. There is some mention of it in the second century, but ONLY among heretical groups like the Montanists. There is no indication from the Apostolic Fathers that "tongues" continued in the orthodox churches founded by the Apostles after the A.D. 70 war.

[chelsea]

Have anyone read J.I.Packer book, keep in step with the spirit? ny reviews , please? Someone lent me but i don't want to waste my time with non godly books! thanks in advanced.
x