Speaking in Tongues

[donaldleesingleton]

(07-13-2009 06:38 PM)Vic Wrote:  

(07-13-2009 06:20 PM)donaldleesingleton Wrote:  So what about these testimonies I have heard about someone who does not know Chinese speaking perfect Chinese and a Chinese person hearing it and getting saved? Is that the same thing as speaking in tongues? I understand and agree with the prayer language being fake and I think that most faith healers are either fake or so full of themselves that they don't see how they are abusing Gods gift. I'm just not convinced that all of it is fake, especially when someone really gets healed.

Hi Donald,

I think you have answered your own question, although I see no documentation concerning the Chinese story. The very gifting of speaking in another tongue/aka language was so that people of other tongues aka language could come to Christ by hearing the salvation message in their own tongues. God can and as we see in Biblical record--He did with the apostles.

However, generally speaking, today gifts concerning languages is the ability to learn, speak and understand another language. Some are given abilities to grasp several languages...some seven or more. However, we are to do things and seek to do things which edify the church--fellow believers. The point is--all things are possible with God, and His purposes for tongues was strictly this:

1 Corinthians 14:9-12 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. 10. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. 11. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. 12. Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

1 Corinthians 14:20-21 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Isaiah 28:9-13 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11. For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

It was the testimony of a missionary. I have no documentation. I heard him testify in church and I remembered his story when I saw this forum post about speaking in tongues. I'm wondering if there is a difference between a prayer language, which I'm not sure is biblical, and tongues with interpretation which I do believe is biblical and possibly still in use today and miraculously speaking in a different earthly language which I could believe if I saw it and the hearer got saved. You say I answered my own question. Maybe I wasn't clear. I want to know what is biblical and what is not. I'm looking for scriptures without interpretation. I know how to read the Bible and understand what it says. I just dont know what book, chapter and verse to look in.

[Vic]

(07-16-2009 06:42 PM)donaldleesingleton Wrote:  It was the testimony of a missionary. I have no documentation. I heard him testify in church and I remembered his story when I saw this forum post about speaking in tongues. I'm wondering if there is a difference between a prayer language, which I'm not sure is biblical, and tongues with interpretation which I do believe is biblical and possibly still in use today and miraculously speaking in a different earthly language which I could believe if I saw it and the hearer got saved. You say I answered my own question. Maybe I wasn't clear. I want to know what is biblical and what is not. I'm looking for scriptures without interpretation. I know how to read the Bible and understand what it says. I just dont know what book, chapter and verse to look in.

Here's links, Donald. These have all manner of scripture--you can look at the discussion or not. They cover tongues from every angle including so-called prayer language. The articles are filled with the scriptures used by those who promote it and also scripture analysis. There is no scripture to support "private prayer language". All tongues/languages were for sharing the gospel to those who spoke other languages.


http://www.seekgod.ca/challenge.htm

http://www.seekgod.ca/memorable.htm#tongues

http://www.seekgod.ca/manifestations.htm

http://www.seekgod.ca/scripturalview.htm

http://www.seekgod.ca/tongues.htm

http://www.seekgod.ca/universaltongues.htm

http://www.seekgod.ca/conclude.htm

http://www.seekgod.ca/comments.htm

[Vic]

Donald,

Just a question to ask yourself. When the apostles asked Jesus to teach them how to pray....did He pray and demonstrate a private prayer language or did He say this as a pattern of how to pray:

Luke 11:1-4 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. 2. And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. 3. Give us day by day our daily bread. 4. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

[Strefanash]

http://www.seekgod.ca/challenge.htm


Im sorry, but the pentecostals letter was IMO better considered and more biblical than your response.

I do not hold that tongues are necessary for salvation, but you seem to be dogmatically denying tongues AT ALL. Also let me add that your insistence that tongues are only human languages flies in the face of the biblical logic.

Paul said he who speaks in a tongue edifies himself . He contrasted this with he who prophesied, who edified others. He also thanked God that he spoke in tongues MORE THAN THEY DID.

Was he speaking in tongues in private prayer times in celtic? Ancient Germanic? Gothic? Proto SLavic? Indo Aryan? or in some prayer language?

your insistence that tongues is only human languages violates the self edification aspect of he who prays in tongues.



you, Vic, seem tot have reacted emotionally against the flagrant abuses put to tongues by pentecostals. Haviung come from a pewntecostal background i may be more aware of these abuses than you are. but you sanctifiy your reaction againt abuses by saying that you OUGHT to throw out the baby with the bath water. As if the mormon flagrant abuse of the divinity of christ means you SHOULD reject the divinity of christ. If you hold that you should NOT reject the divinity of christ simply because it is twisted and distorted by others you do hold that you should NOT throw the baby out with the barh water, and your saying the contrary speaks not of reasoned discourse but irrational passion

AS the email said, a person who has made up his mind is not interested in listening to reason.

You dont like tongues, you dont like charismatics. I get it. But no biblical argument you have offered to justify this succeeds. I can point out the flagrant abuses pentecostals put them to. ST Paul forbids the mass jabbering of tongues by crowds of christians, etc etc etc. But you have it in for tongues themselves

If i confronted you with the scriptures you ignore you will likely huff and puff and then go back to ignoring them.

he who prays in a tongue edifies hgimself, ands St Paul thanked God he prayed in tongues more than the corinthians did.

As for the Conrinthians craving tongues, the dictum abusus non tollit usum (loosely paraphrased DONT throw the baby out with the bathwater, google the latin on the net and find themeaning); this dictum applies here. That something be abused or sought for the wrong motive does not make the thing bad in itself

---

(07-16-2009 07:03 PM)Vic Wrote:  Donald,

Just a question to ask yourself. When the apostles asked Jesus to teach them how to pray....did He pray and demonstrate a private prayer language or did He say this as a pattern of how to pray:

StrefL FALSE DICHOTOMY!!

In this instance Jesus gave them as sample prayer of what they should say to the Almighty. But the speaking in tongues of individuals is not to be denied just because Jesus did not deal with this issue at this point.

People speaking in tongues when the Spirit came upon them is amply attested in the NT. the example of Cornelius, ACts 10:46 being a case in point .

it was not a public event, nothing would be served by giving cornelius a foreign human language

[Vic]

(07-16-2009 07:29 PM)Strefanash Wrote:  http://www.seekgod.ca/challenge.htm


Im sorry, but the pentecostals letter was IMO better considered and more biblical than your response.

I do not hold that tongues are necessary for salvation, but you seem to be dogmatically denying tongues AT ALL. Also let me add that your insistence that tongues are only human languages flies in the face of the biblical logic.

Paul said he who speaks in a tongue edifies himself . He contrasted this with he who prophesied, who edified others. He also thanked God that he spoke in tongues MORE THAN THEY DID.

Was he speaking in tongues in private prayer times in celtic? Ancient Germanic? Gothic? Proto SLavic? Indo Aryan? or in some prayer language?

your insistence that tongues is only human languages violates the self edification aspect of he who prays in tongues.



you, Vic, seem tot have reacted emotionally against the flagrant abuses put to tongues by pentecostals. Haviung come from a pewntecostal background i may be more aware of these abuses than you are. but you sanctifiy your reaction againt abuses by saying that you OUGHT to throw out the baby with the bath water. As if the mormon flagrant abuse of the divinity of christ means you SHOULD reject the divinity of christ. If you hold that you should NOT reject the divinity of christ simply because it is twisted and distorted by others you do hold that you should NOT throw the baby out with the barh water, and your saying the contrary speaks not of reasoned discourse but irrational passion

AS the email said, a person who has made up his mind is not interested in listening to reason.

You dont like tongues, you dont like charismatics. I get it. But no biblical argument you have offered to justify this succeeds. I can point out the flagrant abuses pentecostals put them to. ST Paul forbids the mass jabbering of tongues by crowds of christians, etc etc etc. But you have it in for tongues themselves

If i confronted you with the scriptures you ignore you will likely huff and puff and then go back to ignoring them.

he who prays in a tongue edifies hgimself, ands St Paul thanked God he prayed in tongues more than the corinthians did.

As for the Conrinthians craving tongues, the dictum abusus non tollit usum (loosely paraphrased DONT throw the baby out with the bathwater, google the latin on the net and find themeaning); this dictum applies here. That something be abused or sought for the wrong motive does not make the thing bad in itself

---

(07-16-2009 07:03 PM)Vic Wrote:  Donald,

Just a question to ask yourself. When the apostles asked Jesus to teach them how to pray....did He pray and demonstrate a private prayer language or did He say this as a pattern of how to pray:

StrefL FALSE DICHOTOMY!!

In this instance Jesus gave them as sample prayer of what they should say to the Almighty. But the speaking in tongues of individuals is not to be denied just because Jesus did not deal with this issue at this point.

People speaking in tongues when the Spirit came upon them is amply attested in the NT. the example of Cornelius, ACts 10:46 being a case in point .

it was not a public event, nothing would be served by giving cornelius a foreign human language

Stref, enough.

I am not the first or the last to fully reject the mumbo jumbo, incoherent junk called tongues. Languages were used to spread the gospel. Period. That is what those received at pentecost. Thats why people could hear the wonderful things of God--aka the truth of Christ.

I did not respond in that article "emotionally" and your implication that anyone or anything that disagrees with your thinking--biblical or not---must be from an emotional and certainly not biblical or logical response. I disagree. No emotion there. Just a clear statement of fact.

It makes zero difference to me whether you agree or disagree, approve or disapprove. I prove my beliefs to the Word of God.

You go by a "voice" which tells you it is giving you the Word of God. I can prove my statements to the Word of God. You can hope yours are right.

As far as Paul praying for self edification. YOU, Stref, missed the crux of the passage.

It said- paraphrase ****let all things be done for the edification of the church. ****And Paul also said that IF--notice the word IF he prayed without understanding---he edified no one--including himself---it was FRUITLESS. Look it up. It means it does not bear fruit therefore does not edify the person--UNLESS THEY CAN UNDERSTAND what is said. Therefore babbling something incoherently in prayer privately or otherwise is unedifying and FRUITLESS. End of story.

I have written enough in the articles and on this forum about tongues. Take it or leave.

But don't presume to suggest that I present issues and responses from an emotional rather than a Biblical standpoint. I take considerable thought and research in my responses and articles. You have said you don't. That's your choice.

I tend to defend the Scriptural view. You defend your "voice" view... Apparently there's a difference.

Incidentally--the Scriptures clearly show that people spoke in other tongues to share Christ. I have never denied that truth...You need to get your facts straight. In fact God said this:

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

This topic is closed to you, Stref, because we have done this song and dance before, and it goes nowhere.

[Mark]

I too am a former Oneness Pentecostal "tongue talker". I was part of the church for nearly 7 years. I was baptised in water in Jesus' name and "baptised with the Holy Spirit" ( I still have the certificate "proving" that!)
I never felt comfortable with that fact. I remember the day very clearly. The pastor was praying with me to get the Holy Ghost and began babbling things in my ear. He told me to "let my tongue free and let God talk through me". I figured it would sound like what he was doing so I did the same. The next thing I know the congregation was all rejoicing because I had "received the Holy Ghost". I was happy and confused at the same time.
Both of our children had the same experience. They even told me that they were TOLD they had received the Holy Ghost. Neither of them felt that they had done anything major. The 3 of us never really spoke like that again. Occasionally I would get caught up in a service and follow along, and I believed that was 'speaking in tongues". I never felt that I was edifying anyone or wsa being edified by someone else doing it.
During my time in that church, I heard so many people "speak in tongues" on cue during a service that it really made me wonder. It was very rehearsed. The same with interpretations. It was like they chose the people before service and "practiced" ahead of time. It was scary.
By the grace of God, I have been freed from this frightening dilusion. My wife still believes this. Every believer that I have heard "speak in tongues" says the same exact thing every time. I got so I could mimic them pretty good.
Anyway, I pray that God contines to reveal this misused "gift" to those still under its spell. It is definitely unscriptural and unholy.

[sheep wrecked]

(07-30-2009 08:46 AM)Mark Wrote:  I too am a former Oneness Pentecostal "tongue talker". I was part of the church for nearly 7 years. I was baptised in water in Jesus' name and "baptised with the Holy Spirit" ( I still have the certificate "proving" that!)
I never felt comfortable with that fact. I remember the day very clearly. The pastor was praying with me to get the Holy Ghost and began babbling things in my ear. He told me to "let my tongue free and let God talk through me". I figured it would sound like what he was doing so I did the same. The next thing I know the congregation was all rejoicing because I had "received the Holy Ghost". I was happy and confused at the same time.
Both of our children had the same experience. They even told me that they were TOLD they had received the Holy Ghost. Neither of them felt that they had done anything major. The 3 of us never really spoke like that again. Occasionally I would get caught up in a service and follow along, and I believed that was 'speaking in tongues". I never felt that I was edifying anyone or wsa being edified by someone else doing it.
During my time in that church, I heard so many people "speak in tongues" on cue during a service that it really made me wonder. It was very rehearsed. The same with interpretations. It was like they chose the people before service and "practiced" ahead of time. It was scary.
By the grace of God, I have been freed from this frightening dilusion. My wife still believes this. Every believer that I have heard "speak in tongues" says the same exact thing every time. I got so I could mimic them pretty good.
Anyway, I pray that God contines to reveal this misused "gift" to those still under its spell. It is definitely unscriptural and unholy.

Thank you so much, Mark! I am truly enjoying your perspective. I guess because I see the humor of it all - sort of in a "shaking your head" at how goofy it is way. Everyone is trying so hard to be "spiritual" that they forget it's really about Christ, not how holy you sound or appear on the outside.

Tongues in the NT glorified God. The tongues today glorifies the flesh. Sometimes I feel like they are all playing a childish game and just need to grow up in Christ

[ChristianIssues]

The following video is very helpful in understanding the gifts of tongues, prophecy and knowledge and why they ceased.



God bless,
Mick

[mod note:
I am sorry, Mick, but newbies are not allowed to post links until they have 50 posts. You might want to read the rules found here:

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=28

We'd also appreciate it if you would introduce yourself in the Intro section and tell us a little bit about you!

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=17

You may start a new thread in that section only

thanx!]

[resolute]

When I first became a Christian, everything I was reading (wolves) was telling me to pray in tongues. Thankfully, I never did it, but looking back there was something that should have clued me in that it was (is) a bad thing- I was TERRIFIED of doing it. The last time I was this afraid to do something was years ago, before I became a Christian, when I was trying to astral project (bad idea, I know).
After going through a lot of experiences with a lot of bad things, my experience has taught me that extreme terror is usually the bodies warning signal to the spirit. If your heart starts beating and the hair on your arm stands up, it usually means the enemy is near. Your body knows.

resolute

[sheep wrecked]

(11-03-2010 10:02 PM)resolute Wrote:  When I first became a Christian, everything I was reading (wolves) was telling me to pray in tongues. Thankfully, I never did it, but looking back there was something that should have clued me in that it was (is) a bad thing- I was TERRIFIED of doing it. The last time I was this afraid to do something was years ago, before I became a Christian, when I was trying to astral project (bad idea, I know).
After going through a lot of experiences with a lot of bad things, my experience has taught me that extreme terror is usually the bodies warning signal to the spirit. If your heart starts beating and the hair on your arm stands up, it usually means the enemy is near. Your body knows.

resolute

I was one of those people who sought after tongues. I was prayed over, had hands laid on me, tongues prayed over me, but nothing happened. So besides pleading my heart out to God for them, and because I was taught to sort of "practice" - finally after 3 months, BINGO! So I became a tongue babbler for about 7 years.

The hype and the desire for tongues was many fold - it was the "gateway" for other spiritual gifts and experiences, so one is taught that without it, you do not have the Holy Spirit and can do nothing for God that is worth much unless you speak in tongues. You cannot operate in the gifts and your prayers are inhibited by your lack of spirituality. Certainly, what I experienced may not be to the depth of others, but I sought after any teaching I could find on it and bent the knee to every last vestige of it. The "threat", therefore; is palatable to the point of a strange mix of absolute fear and desire. The fear should have warned me, but I was unprepared and did not have a good foundation in the Word.

What I find so interesting in what you describe is that not only did the onset of tongues get my heart beating faster, but the anticipation of going to church to see and experience other manifestations of the "spirit" also caused that reaction. There definitely was a level of fear. Fear that I would not personally experience all that "God had for me". Again, that should have been a warning, because God's grace and blessings are not dependent on me, but on Him.

During the "performances" of these meetings, I often experienced "goose bumps" and a racing heart, which I instantly related to something "spiritual". So thank you for pointing out that what I was actually experiencing was revulsion. I also experienced periods of a mild shaking/tremoring in which either my legs would "quiver" or my eyes would jump/shake in their sockets [I know it's creepy]. Of course I believed at the time that I was actually being "rewarded" for my "faith" and it was the "spirit" "on" me, so I never recognized that it was demonic, not God.

I am always amazed at how God has continued to solve the equations during that part of my life [now long gone since 2002] and so you have provided another piece to that the puzzle. Thank you