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What About The Rapture?
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02-22-2011, 06:27 PM
Post: #111
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RE: What About The Rapture?
(02-14-2011 10:27 AM)Saltyone Wrote: I believe too that we should be about our Father in heavens business, but we should also be watchful and know the times. Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, Hi Salty, I absolutely agree we are to watch and pray. But I do think there's a difference in watching ie being aware of what is happening around us, and trying to take and, as some are in the habit of doing, proclaiming such and such means that seal has been opened, and that thing means a particular trumpet has been sounded. To me, being dogmatic on those things is almost as bad as date setting for when Christ will return. Do you know what I mean? Vic SeekGod.ca 3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. |
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10-28-2011, 11:56 PM
Post: #112
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RE: What About The Rapture?
Hi Ceebee.....
I had a dream about the Rapture. In may dream my husband and I were riding in the car our little VW Bug. We were near the mountains, it was a nice day, all was well. Then I saw these clouds that seem to be like a scroll over the mountains. I told my husband drive toward the clouds, so he did. We had to get out of the car and we walked a ways toward the mountain, when we were in a fog, then I looked up, and there was a break in the fog so I could see Jesus in the sky with his arms stretched out towards us and I saw "sparks" going up and attaching to Jesus and I realized it was "people". I knew it was the Rapture and I looked over at my husband to say....we're going home.....then I woke up. But, it was so real. I had a dream of Jesus when I was a little girl, too but it wasn't the Rapture. I saw Jesus for real when I was dying of SLE Lupus. My doctor was Jewish and he had come to the hospital because he knew I was going to die that day for sure. I knew I was dying too. I had been praying for my husband to re-marry and marry someone who would love our two little boys they were three and five. My husband had a terrible step mother so I didn't want our kids to go through what he did. As I was praying I felt someone come into the room. I thought it was my husband. But, when I opened my eyes Jesus was standing by the side of my bed. He told me I was going to be okay. I wanted to go with Him and He said it wasnt' my time. I can't tell you what he looked like, I can't even tell you the color of His eyes, yet, I felt so much love coming from Him it is difficult to explain His love for us, it was so over powering. Again I wanted to go with Him, and again He said, I couldn't go with Him. I loved my husband and I loved my boys, but I wanted to go with Him anyway. Then He disappeared. The nurses were taking my vital signs about every fifteen minutes. After Jesus left, the nurses came in to take my vital signs. Then they went and got two more nurses and they all came back and took my vital signs. Then they got some more nurses and they all came back and took the vital signs again. Then they suddenly left the room. I thought, what the heck is going on. Then they all returned with the doctor, and they all had big smiles on their faces. The doctor took my vital signs, and then said, "I don't know what happened, but you can go home tomorrow. You should have died today, I was waiting for you to die today. I had a fever over 104 degrees, barely a heart beat and pulse. Now the fever was gone, my heart was normal and strong, and my pulse was back to normal....all this happened with 15 minutes from the time I saw Jesus to when the nurses came and took my vital signs after Jesus left. The doctor said it was a miracle. You can disbelieve if you will, but I know what I know. I've almost died six times with SLE Lupus and have had three angels come to help me. Long stories. But, everyone that knows me, and have been with me all these years, know that the Lord has had his hand on me, all my life. I am not special, I don't do anything special, except I've always loved the Lord. And He has loved me even though I've wandered away from Him at times in my life growing up.....but he was only a heartbeat away. I have seen and witnessed many things in my life. The Lord has allowed me to see what I've seen in order to help others. I need Jesus Christ everyday of my life, and He helps me to make it through each day, for He hears my "heart sounds". His Grace and Love covers me like a blanket. Corrie Ten Boon said, "There is no pit so deep, that God isn't deeper still." No matter how bad my pain can get, or how bad I hurt, I know it could be worse. Why? Because I've been there. It is His Grace that gets us through the hard times. It is by His Grace that we wake up every morning. It is His Grace that we live minute to minute, each and every day and every day is a "gift". Take Care and God Bless <>< |
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11-02-2011, 05:01 PM
Post: #113
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RE: What About The Rapture?
(10-28-2011 11:56 PM)Gods Lamb Wrote: Hi Ceebee..... Thank you for sharing. God has always healed and cared for people and miracles happen everyday. There's no doubt about that. What's interesting, is that while you claimed to see Jesus, you never actually saw Him, nor can you describe Him. You merely experienced incredible emotions and a sense of presence. Which really is not surprising because God gives us love, joy peace etc. Whether you were in the presence of an angel unawares is unclear but as you stated you can't describe who or what you saw. The fact that you were healed, is certainly somehting to glorify God with. Every day really is a gift, and even the miracle of life itself, each moment we have is truly something to treasure. The Scripture that comes to mind about HIs grace, which I think most Christians can attest to having received time and again, are these: Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. 1Pe 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. Jas 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Jas 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy. Jas 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation. Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Your dream or vision of Jesus and sparks, actually to be totally honest, reminds of kabbalah's view of God, in very short form, the Ein sof and the regathering of the sparks to Himself. What did that Jesus look like? Vic SeekGod.ca 3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. |
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03-17-2013, 08:31 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2013 09:04 PM by Lois.)
Post: #114
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RE: What About The Rapture?
I have read this thread many times. I finally feel like posting what I believe on the subject. I may have to do this in more than one post.
 One thing I have noticed is that people love to use that term "rapture" but the bible does actually call it "the resurrection" many, many times, so why the need for a different term when God already has a well defined word for it? I have called it the rapture a lot myself but the Bible does actually call it "the resurrection", not the rapture. The definition of the resurrection is very well established and reiterated throughout the New Testament. Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Luke 14:12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee. 13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: 14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. I may be opening up an old can a worms in this thread but I just have a few things to add. It was said by LindaR, who is no longer with us, that during the tribulation the Holy Spirit would be "on" and not "in" believers as it used to be in the Old Testament. From LindaR's Post # 57 Quote:During the dispensation of grace, the Holy Spirit indwells all believers. There is no specific Scripture which states that the Holy Spirit will not indwell those who go through the Tribulation, however there is no specific Scripture reference that states the Holy Spirit WILL indwell those people. Revelation 7:1-8 states that there will be 144,000 (12, 000 from each of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel) who will be "sealed" in their foreheads"...but it doesn't say "indwelt". The presence of the Holy Spirit will remain on the earth, but He will work as He did during the Old Testament period. The promise of an indwelling Holy Spirit that guarantees our eternal destiny is uniquely given to the Church. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30) No Old Testament believer enjoyed such a relationship. Even King David, a man after God's own heart, prayed that God would not take the Holy Spirit from him following his sin with Bathsheba. (Psalm 51:11) Old Testament believers were not promised that the Spirit of God would be sealed within them as a guarantee of their destiny. I am unable to find a single verse that makes such a promise to Tribulation believers. The only time Scripture speaks of the HS "indwelling" is during the dispensation of grace, which ends with the Rapture of the Church.LindaR's Post # 61 Quote:How did the Old Testament saints know God? They were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit...and yet 22 Old Testament saints penned the Old Testament Scriptures:I think there were instances of Old Testament people such as Moses being indwelt with the Holy Spirit. No they were not promised to be indwelt as we are today but it would seem as though some were anyway. There are instances of people like Moses and the prophets, where it would seem that the Holy Spirit indwelt them for many years, which sounds pretty permanent. Then there is the story of Balaam, the non-Israelite false prophet, it would seem that the Holy Spirit came upon Balaam temporarily. (The story of Balaam is in Numbers 24) So I don't think we can say that people of the Old Testament were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit because scripture would lean more towards that some were. Neh 9:30 Yet many years didst thou forbear them, and testifiedst against them by thy spirit in thy prophets: yet would they not give ear: therefore gavest thou them into the hand of the people of the lands. Gen 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is? 39 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, Forasmuch as God hath shewed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art: Isa 63:7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. 8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. 9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. 10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. 11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him? 12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name? 1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. There is also the example of John the Baptist; Luke 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. I don't think we should try to split hairs on whether the OT followers of God had the Spirit of God permanently in them or just on them, what matters is believers in Jesus Christ are now indwelt.So, what happened then really doesn't come into play now.Now we are indwelt or we are none of His, period. I would agree with what Vic, Sheep and Rose have said and I agree with a lot of what Strefanash has already said to. The scriptures say that the "resurrection" will happen after the tribulation. I would encourage a plain, straight forward reading of the scriptures without attempting to add to them. I think that we really need to try to stay true to what the text says and not read anything into Scripture that is not there. I think the problem with dispensationalism and the rapture is that it has to rely heavily on books with people's interpretation and commentary and not so much on scripture. Now with that being said I wanted to say some things about 2 Thessalonians 2:6. 2Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. It seems as though people have presumed a lot from those 2 verses as to who and what is taken out of the way. I just want to mention what it does not say. It does not say the Holy Spirit.It could very well be talking about the Holy Spirit being "taken out of the way", but it does not say that. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed. It says something is "taken out of the way". "taken out of the way" is not removed or removed from the earth, as some would have us believe. What we read is happening in 2Thessalonians is that the Thessalonians are concerned that the resurrection has already happened and they were left behind but Paul basically says, Don't be shaken. It hasn't happened yet and it doesn't happen until there is a falling away first, then the man of sin is revealed. That alone in and of itself is a great refutation of a pre trib rapture..because Paul is basically telling them they didn't miss it, they did not unknowingly get "left behind"..people are going to know when it happens..XYZ is going to happen first, then the resurrection..not SURPRISE it happened and you missed it. 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. And 2Th 2:6-10 2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Now again, I'm going to say "taken out of the way" is not removed. To say that those verses mean that the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world would, for me, be a giant leap into another gospel because you would have to come up with a new translation and new meanings for other scriptures such as; Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. That sound to me like all believers in Jesus Christ are indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit "unto the day of redemption". The "day of redemption" being the second coming of Christ Jesus. More to follow  I think there is a big tendency to confuse the tribulation with God's wrath. It was said in this thread that the tribulation was God pouring out his wrath. I would have to disagree with that. The scriptures make a very clear distinction between the two. Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. 24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. 28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: 29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. 9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. 10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls. 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Compare Rev 6:9-17 with the other verses of Matthew, Mark and Luke that I posted. Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? In Matthew and Mark it says after the tribulation something happens to the sun, the moon and the stars and then shall they see the Son of man coming with great power and glory, then the great day of his wrath is come. But great earthquakes, wars and commotions, famines, pestilences, fearful sights, betrayal, hatred and persecutions all this happens before the Son of man(Jesus Christ) returns and before the sun, moon and stars incident. So it would be tribulation--Then something happening with the sun, moon and stars--Then we see Christ returning and the saints being gathered--Then the Wrath of God, or wrath of the Lamb, whichever you would like to call it. That is the order in which the scriptures state it. After the tribulation, the sun becomes black, the moon becomes as blood, the stars fall to the earth and then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect, then the great day of his wrath is come. So the tribulation cannot be God's wrath being poured out because the Bible clearly teaches that the great day of his wrath is come after the tribulation. I think people can get it stuck in their heads that the tribulation is a seven year period in which God is pouring out his wrath but God's wrath and the tribulation are two very different things. I personally would not be able to agree with Dispensational theology. I don't feel that it is scripturally sound doctrine but I am not going to go into all that here. I used to believe in the pre trib rapture but I hadn't studied the scriptures. The scriptures state more than once, 1) Great tribulation 2) Signs in the sun, moon and stars 3) The coming of Christ and gathering of the saints 4) God's wrath I know I have repeated that a few times. I am just hoping it might sink in. I cannot find anywhere in the bible where it states that believers, the elect, the saints are resurrected(raptured) and then the tribulation. Act 14:21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, 22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. It says through much tribulation not before much tribulation. No where in the Bible does it say we as believers in Christ Jesus will avoid any tribulation. If I am not mistaken the word tribulation is used 19 times in the KJV.(tribulations plural, 3) In none of the passages does it say we are raptured before it but that we must endure and be of good cheer. I think we are to be prepared for tribulation, to expect it, be strengthened, rooted and ground in Christ and the bible now. I think that the most devastating effect of the pre trib rapture theology will be that people are not prepared to endure what may come. I pray now for the strength to endure whatever may come. I also pray for the believers on the forum and the body of Christ in general. I don't know when this takes place maybe not even in my life time but I want to be as prepared as I possibly can be. I think we are told to be ready, to watch and to pray. Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. 34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. 35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. 
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.(2John 1:9) |
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03-18-2013, 10:40 AM
Post: #115
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RE: What About The Rapture?
HI Lois, No topic or thread is too old to post to.
 Very interesting thoughts. THe questions I have asked many times and never had a response to is: How many times does Jesus leave heaven? Is there more than one last trump? Because from my understanding of rapture, Jesus must leave heaven 'at the last trump', get the alive people from earth, then return to heaven and then 'at the last trump', come in all His glory. From those concepts alone I find confusion of Scripture. Next, If one does a study of "the day of the Lord", I think it equates to the day of God's wrath--and perhaps it's something to be considered in this discussion. When does it take place? Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isa 2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD. Isa 2:6 Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers. Isa 2:7 Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots: Isa 2:8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made: Isa 2:9 And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not. Isa 2:10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty. Isa 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: Isa 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. Isa 2:18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish. Isa 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. Isa 2:20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; Isa 2:21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. Isa 2:22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of? Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. Jer 46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries:[b] and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates. the day: Jer_51:6; Isa_13:6, Isa_34:6, Isa_34:8, Isa_61:2, Isa_63:4; Joe_1:15, Joe_2:1; Zep_1:14-15; Luk_21:22 the sword: Deu_32:42; Isa_34:5-8; Eze_39:17-21; Zep_1:7-8; Rev_19:17-21 Eze 30:2 Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! Eze 30:3 For the day is near, [b]even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen. Joe 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. Alas: Joe_2:2; Jer_30:7; Amo_5:16-18 the day of: Joe_2:1; Psa_37:13; Isa_13:6-9; Eze_7:2-12, Eze_12:22-28; Zep_1:14-18; Luk_19:41-44; Jam_5:9; Rev_6:17 Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? Joe 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: Joe 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil. Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD![b] to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. Amo 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it? Zep 1:6 And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor enquired for him. Zep 1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: [b]for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests. Zep 1:8 And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD'S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel. Zep 1:9 In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit. Zep 1:10 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills. Zep 1:11 Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off. Zep 1:12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil. Zep 1:13 Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof. Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, Zep 1:16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. Zep 1:17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land. Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. The day of the Lord almost appears to be one day of pouring His wrath out, but I am not proficient on these things. So, thoughts? Vic SeekGod.ca 3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. |
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03-23-2013, 01:57 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-23-2013 02:14 PM by Lois.)
Post: #116
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RE: What About The Rapture?
You know Vic you have some very good questions. They are hard questions, at least for me at the moment. I haven't forgotten about this subject since you asked the questions.
I have been meditating on the word of God and asking him to make me void of any preconceived notions. I haven't answered quickly because I want to make sure I answer truthfully, from the word of God and not from opinions(mine or others) that I may have inadvertently smuggled in. I am by no means an expert on eschatology. I wouldn't say that I am all that proficient on these things either. I do try though. Maybe if we put our heads together we could find more answers and less confusion? I have been studying on my own, with much prayer but still finding myself running into road blocks that seem to be beyond my scope of understanding. You asked how many times does Jesus leave heaven, well I always assumed it was just once.I never really looked into it any further than that, shamefully. I have always glossed over the verses that mention his coming as being the same one time event.--All believers are caught up to heaven--But now, with that thinking I run into the dilemma of the 144,000. Who are they? Where did they come from? Why were they not resurrected with the rest of us? Why are they here during God's wrath being poured out? God seals them so they are believers according to the bible, so why were they not resurrected to? I am now left wondering if we are resurrected before his wrath. I think I may be confusing myself. LOL I'm not concerned about the actual duration of anything, at this point, it would be like me trying to put frosting on a cake before I baked it. LOL So I am trying to figure out who the 144,000 are. They seem to be here when God's wrath is being poured out. If there are any believers here when God's wrath is being poured out then I only see 2 options. We have a split bride or believers are here when God's wrath is poured out. I am not so inclined to believe in a split bride. I am still looking into all this stuff and I am not settled at the moment. I think continued study into the 144,000 might be helpful.. but idk lol Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.(2John 1:9) |
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03-23-2013, 03:05 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-23-2013 03:08 PM by Lois.)
Post: #117
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RE: What About The Rapture?
I just wanted to add a little something onto my comment about not being concerned with the duration.
I think people focus to much on pointing out different durations of events. I think people really miss the point when they do that. I look at it as having an appointment. When you make an appointment you don't ask them how long the appointment will last, then right how long it lasts down. How long the appointment lasts doesn't matter if you do not know the date of the appointment. The scriptures are very clear that no one knows. I think that "a time, and times, and half a time" are there to give us hope that it will not last forever. There will be an ending point. That's what I meant by that. 
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.(2John 1:9) |
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