What About The Rapture?

[Anddra]

Definitely not a salvation issue, Vic. Salvation is dependent upon our repentant faith in Jesus. Any differences on matters such as the rapture will all be sorted out when we are raptured together.

[4given]

I agree - its not a salvation matter - and no one should make it out to be one.

The following is maybe off topic but.............

My biggest concern just now with pre trib rapture is using the parallel to the Jewish Wedding Tradition - I've done some research and majority of the traditions come from the Talmud. I honestly think that many are being lurred into the Hebrew Roots movement due to this parallel especially those that hold pre trib beliefs.

I am alot wiser since finding this website and I don't think that we should rely Jewish tradition to interpret scripture.

Maybe Vic this parallel needs a thread all to itself

[LindaR]

(04-28-2009 11:45 AM)Vic Wrote:  I don't normally discuss this issue.

When I first got on the internet I was astounded at all the discussions --and heated discussions--on this issue. At that time, about 11 yrs ago, I wrote an article called The Father Knows http://www.seekgod.ca/father.htm

I also addressed date setting a few years ago in Date Setting Hypocrisy > http://www.seekgod.ca/raptured.htm
It was in response to some who were continually date setting various events and shown wrong and continued on their date setting way. The article wasn't about the issue of the rapture specifically, but date setting.

Over the years, for some who argue for the pre-trib rapture, I have seen where there is an almost stated belief that it is a salvation issue and a fundamental doctrine.

What do you think? Is it a salvation issue or fundamental belief issue or...?

Salvation is based on one's trusting in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary plus NOTHING! As I have posted previously on this thread, I am a dispensationalist...I believe in the pre-trib rapture of the Church. For me, it is a fundamental belief...here are 5 reasons why:

1. It is a comfort in our earthly trials

Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)

The apostle Paul wrote this to the church at Thessalonica to "comfort" them because they were so persecuted that they thought they were already going through the Great Tribulation ... Read vs. 13-17 for the context.

2. It causes us to be busy in the Lord's work

Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. (1 Corinthians 15:58)

3. It causes us to live obedient lives

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:1-3)

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. (1 Thessalonians 5:4-7)

4. It causes us to separate from evil

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Titus 2:13-14)

5. It causes us to avoid false teachers

Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. (1 John 2:24-28)

I am definitely NOT into date-setting. I believe the Rapture is imminent...it can happen at any time. We are to "love His appearing", not to look for "signs".

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2 Timothy 4:8)

It (the Rapture) is my blessed hope!

[Vic]

(04-28-2009 03:23 PM)4given Wrote:  I agree - its not a salvation matter - and no one should make it out to be one.

The following is maybe off topic but.............

My biggest concern just now with pre trib rapture is using the parallel to the Jewish Wedding Tradition - I've done some research and majority of the traditions come from the Talmud. I honestly think that many are being lurred into the Hebrew Roots movement due to this parallel especially those that hold pre trib beliefs.

I am alot wiser since finding this website and I don't think that we should rely Jewish tradition to interpret scripture.

Maybe Vic this parallel needs a thread all to itself

We thought it a real good idea to start a new thread for this most interesting topic.

So here it is:

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.p...69#pid1969

[Vic]

(04-28-2009 03:53 PM)LindaR Wrote:  Salvation is based on one's trusting in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary plus NOTHING! As I have posted previously on this thread, I am a dispensationalist...I believe in the pre-trib rapture of the Church. For me, it is a fundamental belief...here are 5 reasons why:

1. It is a comfort in our earthly trials

Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)

The apostle Paul wrote this to the church at Thessalonica to "comfort" them because they were so persecuted that they thought they were already going through the Great Tribulation ... Read vs. 13-17 for the context.

2. It causes us to be busy in the Lord's work

Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. (1 Corinthians 15:58)

3. It causes us to live obedient lives

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:1-3)

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. (1 Thessalonians 5:4-7)

4. It causes us to separate from evil

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Titus 2:13-14)

5. It causes us to avoid false teachers

Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. (1 John 2:24-28)

I am definitely NOT into date-setting. I believe the Rapture is imminent...it can happen at any time. We are to "love His appearing", not to look for "signs".

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2 Timothy 4:8)

It (the Rapture) is my blessed hope!

Hi Linda,

I want to divide your post sort of...if you wouldn't mind copying your thoughts about the rapture being your blessed hope and your reasons, to the titus thread, that would be super.

You can still leave the whole post here intact, but I would like to address the blessed hope in the following thread.

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=271

[sheep wrecked]

Quote: stefanash:

I am solidly a post tribulation rapture believer. Therefore if I live through the events of the Geat Tribulation I expect to be martyred.

Thus any appeals to anything which justify a belief that we will not be massacred in our thousands or even millions come the day of trouble is to me false

I think perhaps there might be some misunderstanding on what the Day of Judgment is. Some believe it is the tribulation. I take the position that it is the Day of Judgment for all mankind, great and small, redeemed and unredeemed.

I am not sure why people are afraid of the tribulation. I get the impression that Christians who support the pre-trib rapture think that God would not let them suffer that way. But then I think of how the disciples suffered, and how people around the world suffer for the faith with persecution, torture, and being martyred and it makes me wonder why we would think we will not be here for the worst of it. It is a gift to be martyred for Christ, not something to shy away from.

Just my

[Strefanash]

LindaR,

your 5 reasons seem to me to be valid whether the rapture comes before the trib or after it. But given that the scripture says that the Prince who is to come wil be given authority to make war on the saints and overcome them (Daniel, I think), when I ask who are the saints the only answer I get is that the church is. The need to invent a separate catreogory of "tribulation saints" as LaHaye and Jenkins seem to do in their novels is a stretch.

I am not a dispensationalist, I cannot agree with the 7 dispensation scheme that I see touted around the place. There was never 7 means whereby people are to be saved, but ony ONE, namely faith.

Two covenants were given, the first to highlight, by virtue of its unworkableness, the necessity of the second, namely faith by grace

[LindaR]

(05-12-2009 07:51 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

Quote: stefanash:

I am solidly a post tribulation rapture believer. Therefore if I live through the events of the Geat Tribulation I expect to be martyred.

Thus any appeals to anything which justify a belief that we will not be massacred in our thousands or even millions come the day of trouble is to me false

I think perhaps there might be some misunderstanding on what the Day of Judgment is. Some believe it is the tribulation. I take the position that it is the Day of Judgment for all mankind, great and small, redeemed and unredeemed.

I am not sure why people are afraid of the tribulation. I get the impression that Christians who support the pre-trib rapture think that God would not let them suffer that way. But then I think of how the disciples suffered, and how people around the world suffer for the faith with persecution, torture, and being martyred and it makes me wonder why we would think we will not be here for the worst of it. It is a gift to be martyred for Christ, not something to shy away from.

Just my

In John 16:33 Jesus said:

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. (John 16:33)

The tribulation and trials we all have as believers in Christ are not the same as the Tribulation that is going to overtake the world immediately preceding the Second Coming of Christ. Also, the Tribulation (different than "tribulation and trials") is God's judgment on the Christ-rejecting world...our daily "tribulations and trials" are simply due to the fact that we are still in our "flesh" and live in a "sin infested" world.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matthew 24:21)

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:29-30)

I don't believe the Day of Judgment is the Tribulation. There are actually five judgments:

1. The Judgment of the Cross:

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:1-6)

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: (Galatians 3:13)

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (1 Peter 3:18)

2. The self judgment of believers:

For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:31-32)

For the believer who fails to judge himself: CHASTISEMENT (1 Corinthians 11:32). For the believer who does judge himself: FORGIVENESS (1 John 1:9).

3. The Judgment Seat of Christ:

This judgment is only for believers. This judgment has nothing to do with the believer's salvation because this has already been settled when the believer was saved. The issue involved in this judgment will be the BELIEVER'S WORKS:

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. (Romans 14:10)

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:10)

Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. (1 Corinthians 4:5)

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2 Timothy 4:8)

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12)

4. The Judgment of the Nations:

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. (Matthew 25:31-33)

This judgment occurs at the Second Coming of Christ preceding His setting up the Millennial Kingdom. The sheep (saved) enter the kingdom (Matthew 25:34) and the goats (unsaved) are eternally punished in fire (Matthew 25:41,46).

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (Matthew 25:34)

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Matthew 25:41)

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:46)

5. The Great White Throne Judgment:

This is the great final judgment for all the unsaved people who have ever lived.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)

All sin was judged at the cross (for all mankind), but as Jesus promised in John 14:1-3:

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3)

[Strefanash]

I, too, distinguish tribulation from the Great Tribulation, and have never held that the Great Tribulation was the Last Judgement. Yet, agreeing with you in these distinctions I see no compelling reason here why I should repudiate the idea that the Church will go through the Great Tribulation. Indeed in Revelation is mentioned the great multitide of the saints that did go through the Great Tribulation. Why these should be a different group other than the Church is beyond me, other than a need to appeal to a theory which is apparently contradicted by the plain wording of scripture.

And what did Jesus say? Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Why shorten these days if the elect were not on earth during the Great Tribulation? Again, I see no reason to invent a separate group, that of Tribulation saints. To refute my styance one must explain why there is a separate category of saints other than the church without assuming the truth of the pre trib rapture, without, INO committing the fallacy of petitio principii, or begging the question: assuming as evidence what one is seeking to prove, thus arguing in a circle

To me the Rapture is not a removal of the saints before the trouble starts, it is a triumphant vindication of them who have been being martyred in their thousands (millions? maybe so) by the ravaging hordes of the Beast. The term "with a shout" to me iundicates that it is not a secret thing, but fully visible, and when we are resurrected before the very eyes of those who have been murdering us, their horror will be total, for a God who could raise dead saints visibly before the unbelievers would now be furious at them for killing the saints; and this God was now decending to wreak his terrible wrath on them

[LindaR]

(05-13-2009 12:23 AM)Strefanash Wrote:  I, too, distinguish tribulation from the Great Tribulation, and have never held that the Great Tribulation was the Last Judgement. Yet, agreeing with you in these distinctions I see no compelling reason here why I should repudiate the idea that the Church will go through the Great Tribulation. Indeed in Revelation is mentioned the great multitide of the saints that did go through the Great Tribulation. Why these should be a different group other than the Church is beyond me, other than a need to appeal to a theory which is apparently contradicted by the plain wording of scripture.

If the "saints" in Revelation are the Church, then who will be left to "rapture" after the Great Tribulation? And who would be left to reign in the Millennial Kingdom? In Revelation 13, it states that "the beast" overcomes the "saints":

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome (nikao) them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Revelation 13:7)

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3528. nikao
nikao nik-ah'-o

from 3529; to subdue (literally or figuratively):--conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory

How is this possible when Jesus said that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (the Church) in Matthew 16:18? Doesn't making the "saints" the Church in Revelation and in other verses pertaining to the Great Tribulation, contradict Matthew 16:18?

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)

Quote:And what did Jesus say? Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The "elect" is Israel, not the Church. There's no "church" mentioned in Matthew 24-25. The Olivet Discourse speaks of the nation of Israel.

Quote:Why shorten these days if the elect were not on earth during the Great Tribulation? Again, I see no reason to invent a separate group, that of Tribulation saints. To refute my styance one must explain why there is a separate category of saints other than the church without assuming the truth of the pre trib rapture, without, INO committing the fallacy of petitio principii, or begging the question: assuming as evidence what one is seeking to prove, thus arguing in a circle

To me the Rapture is not a removal of the saints before the trouble starts, it is a triumphant vindication of them who have been being martyred in their thousands (millions? maybe so) by the ravaging hordes of the Beast. The term "with a shout" to me iundicates that it is not a secret thing, but fully visible, and when we are resurrected before the very eyes of those who have been murdering us, their horror will be total, for a God who could raise dead saints visibly before the unbelievers would now be furious at them for killing the saints; and this God was now decending to wreak his terrible wrath on them

Nobody is inventing a separate group of Tribulation "saints". The "Tribulation saints" are those who refuse to receive the "Mark of the Beast"...they will be martyred. Why is the Church not mentioned at all from Revelation 4:1-18:24? The presence of the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church is the "restraining" factor keeping the Antichrist (the "beast") from unleahing his evil in this world. Once He (the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church) is "taken out of the way" (2 Thess. 2:7), all "hell" will break loose! God will pour out His judgment on the Christ-rejecting world and fulfill His covenant with the nation of Israel (Romans 11:25-27)

I just don't see a post-trib rapture happening.