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What About The Rapture?
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05-13-2009, 02:40 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-13-2009 03:09 PM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #51
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RE: What About the Rapture?
(05-13-2009 01:20 AM)LindaR Wrote: If the "saints" in Revelation are the Church, then who will be left to "rapture" after the Great Tribulation? And who would be left to reign in the Millennial Kingdom? In Revelation 13, it states that "the beast" overcomes the "saints": I am wondering if you are differentiating between the spiritual and the physical? The church/body is not overcome spiritually, but we are overcome physically. Is this how you view it as well? Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Quote:and what did Jesus say? Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Would you agree that if Matt 24-25 is specifically about B'nai Israel, then Jesus is not referring to the rapture in that passage? Quote:Nobody is inventing a separate group of Tribulation "saints". The "Tribulation saints" are those who refuse to receive the "Mark of the Beast"...they will be martyred. Why is the Church not mentioned at all from Revelation 4:1-18:24? The presence of the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church is the "restraining" factor keeping the Antichrist (the "beast") from unleahing his evil in this world. Once He (the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church) is "taken out of the way" (2 Thess. 2:7), all "hell" will break loose! God will pour out His judgment on the Christ-rejecting world and fulfill His covenant with the nation of Israel (Romans 11:25-27) Let me ask this: If the church is removed and the Holy Spirit---how does anyone come to Christ and have the Holy Spirit during the tribulation - in other words, how does one become a 'tribulation saint' if the Holy Spirit is not at work? How do trib saints get saved if the Holy Spirit is not calling them to repentance? Hope you don't mind the questions, but I am struggling to understand this concept. Is there a different type of hell and heaven as well for trib saints, because they would be inferior spiritually, right? Quote:God will pour out His judgment on the Christ-rejecting world and fulfill His covenant with the nation of Israel. In Rev 16 it talks about the vials of wrath that are poured out - it looks to me like men do not repent, but curse God. Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which has power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial on the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. So if all men are cursing God for the afflictions, how can any be saved during the trib? An interesting verse: 1Pe 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. If this is for the trib saints, who have the NT --- then are they being told to honor the anti-christ? |
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05-13-2009, 02:46 PM
Post: #52
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RE: What About the Rapture?
I am familiar with tre trib teaching. I believed it for quite a few years
That it is the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church who is the restrainer is an assumption. I do not see it as axiomatic. An argument from silence (that the word church does not appear after Rev 4) does not establish anything. It is circumstantial and only bears weight when co opted by the pre tribulationists to support their system. As the creationists say, an absense of evidence is not the same thing as evidence of absense As for the mass martyrdom of the church contradicting the fact that the gates of hell will not overcome the church, this is refuted by the resurrection of the dead in christ. That I will likely be dead come the time of the rapture does not mean that Satan has overcome me to the destructin of my faith, so why would the near extinction (near, but not total, for Paul said that the dead in christ would rise but first we who were alive would also be snatched up to meet Him in the air) imply that Satan would have triumphed over the church. The death of Christ did not mean Satan has triumphed because the resurrection sealed Christ's triumph over Satan . You are saying there are saints outside the church when you are saying that the elect is not the church. This has disturbing soteriological and dispensational implications. One is ONLY saved by faith. Hence I reject dispensationalism. Onis is ONLY a saint if one comes to christ lest christ be NOT the only way. Therefore the saints are those who have come to christ, hence the saints and the church are the same thing and their cannot be saints outside of it (more later if necessary, I must to work) To say that the discourse on the mount of Olives was about Israel is to miss its own context. The disciples asked the Master what were the signs of the end, and He said to them "you will be persecuted etc". The plainest reading is that the sermon here was to the disciples and about them. HE spoke to the disciples, not to the Jews in public. THerefore it was certainly for the church. To force it to apply to Israel is to avoid the message of tribulation persecution and death In my opinion those who originated the pre trib rapture were afraid of suffering martyrdom and death, yet the historucal church not only knew it but expected it |
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05-13-2009, 06:39 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-13-2009 07:29 PM by LindaR.)
Post: #53
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RE: What About the Rapture?
(05-13-2009 02:40 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:(05-13-2009 01:20 AM)LindaR Wrote: If the "saints" in Revelation are the Church, then who will be left to "rapture" after the Great Tribulation? And who would be left to reign in the Millennial Kingdom? In Revelation 13, it states that "the beast" overcomes the "saints": All who reject God’s call to salvation and choose to stay in their sin will be given over to Satan and his man of the tribulation hour, Antichrist. They will fall for his lies, and be damned forever. They will be damned, without hope of redemption, when they take Antichrist’s mark. (Revelation 13). I believe that many will be saved during the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation. There will be worldwide persecution of those who refuse to follow the Antichrist. They will be martyred. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. (Matthew 24:9-10) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Revelation 13:7-8) I also believe that the "martyred saints" from the great tribulation are the Jewish people and the Gentiles who will be converted through the ministry of the Jews (the 144,000 "sealed" from the 12 tribes of the children of Israel..Rev. 7:4-8). And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Revelation 7:14) Quote:An interesting verse:1 & 2 Peter wasn't written to tribulation saints. I think both epistles of Peter were written to NT believers (to "strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia," 1 Peter 1:1b)...probably also to the same group for Peter's second epistle. These were considered "General epistles"...not written to any particular "church", but to various groups of people...as was the epistle of James, which was written "to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." (James 1:1b) In my last post (which I need to edit) I posted Matthew 24:29-20...I meant Matthew 24:29-30. (05-13-2009 02:46 PM)Strefanash Wrote: I am familiar with tre trib teaching. I believed it for quite a few yearsWhere is the Scripture to back up what you are saying? |
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05-13-2009, 08:08 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-13-2009 08:21 PM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #54
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RE: What About the Rapture?
(05-13-2009 06:39 PM)LindaR Wrote: sheep: I am wondering if you are differentiating between the spiritual and the physical? The church/body is not overcome spiritually, but we are overcome physically. Is this how you view it as well? Quote:It's both spiritual and physical. The individual members of the Body of Christ will never suffer the torments of hell, nor will the Church as a whole, suffer the torments of hell. If the believers overcome, it's not because they overcame physically, but spiritually. This is what Jesus was referring to in this text. A martyr has "overcome" because they sacrificed their life/bodies for the Lord, but are redeemed for eternal life spiritually. In other words, hell has no hold over them, regardless of what happens to their bodies. Would you agree with that? Quote:The Holy Spirit indwelling the Body of Christ/the Church is "taken out of the way"....not removed. Since the Holy Spirit is God and God is omnipresent, His presence will still remain on the earth...but He will not "indwell". He will work as He did in the Old Testament times...He will "come upon" people as He came upon David: The indwelt Holy Spirit is evidence of the New Covenant. If believers do not have the indwelt Spirit of Christ, they are not saved. The Holy Spirit was "upon" people under the old covenant, but indwelt in the New Covenant in Christ. Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, Receive you the Holy Ghost: Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you. Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 2Co 1:21 Now he which establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, is God; 2Co 1:22 Who has also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. 2Co 3:3 For as much as you are manifestly declared to be the letter of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 2Co 3:6 Who also has made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life. 2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraved in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels. Quote:I believe that many will be saved during the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation. There will be worldwide persecution of those who refuse to follow the Antichrist. They will be martyred. Do you agree that salvation is to be born again of water and spirit? If the trib "saints" are not born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, how can they be saved? Quote:I also believe that the "martyred saints" from the great tribulation are the Jewish people and the Gentiles who will be converted through the ministry of the Jews (the 144,000 "sealed" from the 12 tribes of the children of Israel..Rev. 7:4-8). What I see in the text you quoted from Rev is that "they came out of great tribulation" not "The" great tribulation. I cannot find a scripture that calls it "The" great tribulation. Do you have a reference for that? Why would the "sealed" witness to gentiles if the trib is for the Jewish nation? How did the "sealed" get "sealed" or saved? Who witnessed to the "sealed"? Are they born again? Quote:1 & 2 Peter wasn't written to tribulation saints. I think both epistles of Peter were written to NT believers (to "strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia," 1 Peter 1:1b)...probably also to the same group for Peter's second epistle. These were considered "General epistles"...not written to any particular "church", but to various groups of people...as was the epistle of James, which was written "to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." (James 1:1b) So if tribulation saints have Bibles and they read 1 & 2 Peter, how will they know not to honor the anti-christ? The word "strangers" means foreigners - saints of every nation. Are you saying then, that trib saints are not New Testament believers? The word "testament" is a synonym for Covenant. If Peter's epistles were written to various groups of people, not to any particular church, then could one really state it was not intended for trib saints? |
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05-15-2009, 01:59 PM
Post: #55
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RE: What About the Rapture?
Linda
Quote:....The presence of the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church is the "restraining" factor keeping the Antichrist (the "beast") from unleahing his evil in this world. Once He (the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church) is "taken out of the way" (2 Thess. 2:7), all "hell" will break loose! God will pour out His judgment on the Christ-rejecting world and fulfill His covenant with the nation of Israel ....The Holy Spirit indwelling the Body of Christ/the Church is "taken out of the way"....not removed. Since the Holy Spirit is God and God is omnipresent, His presence will still remain on the earth...but He will not "indwell". He will work as He did in the Old Testament times...He will "come upon" people as He came upon David: ...Hell will be the same for all the lost; heaven will be the same for all the "saints" of every age. God is not respector of persons. If you are lost you go to hell...if you are saved (only one way to be saved), your eternal home is heaven. Hi Linda, I am a little troubled by your statements here.  I would like to see a Scripture that clearly and specifically states that the Holy Spirit will not indwell those who go through the tribulation and 'come to Christ.' The new covenant does not revert back to the old covenant in the tribulation. The old covenant is vanished away. The old way does not come back, or are you suggesting that when the New Covenant came in, it was temporary, and those in the tribulation are unique and different than other believers? Which means it contradicts your other statement. Don't all believers in Christ have access to the same promises in Scripture?  The way God is speaking to His people through the Holy Spirit is only and because of Christ dying. We have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit--and are sealed by Him. Those who know Christ, who is the only way of salvation, are to have the indwelling of His Spirit. That is part of the New Covenant. Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...we are not His. The Holy Spirit convicts men of sin and reveals to them their need of a Savior. Romans 8:9-10 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. There are not different classes of believers are there? If so, I really need a Scripture for it.  What you are saying seems to not have a scriptural foundation but is a manmade doctrine. Am I wrong in that? 2 Corinthians 4:13-14 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14. Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. 1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Romans 8:14-27 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25. But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26 . Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, [b/]and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 21 [b] Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Don't all believers have access to the same promises throughout Scripture, regardless of when they come to Christ? Or do the Scriptures and promises not apply to those who might come to Christ during the tribulation, as you say, without the Holy Spirit indwelling? What Scripture do you have that says this?  What you are suggesting reminds me a little bit of what Zola Levitt taught.  Which content reminds me of why I don't discuss this topic normally.  Quote:...The Old Testament saints will be regathered as well at the beginning of the Kingdom Age, and so the kingdom will get under way with rather a mixed crowd, all having in common a sincere belief in the Messiah and King. There will be the faithful of the Old Testament, who waited so long for this grand age, the believers of the Church Age, who went to heaven in the Rapture, and finally the believers of the Tribulation Period, who will enter the Kingdom in their natural bodies. Since they did not come to faith before the Rapture, they were not changed and they remain as they are, still marrying and giving in marriage, unlike the believers of the Church Age. This latter group, the people in their natural bodies, will give birth during the Kingdom to ordinary, fleshly sinners, again “born of Adam.” It is these few on earth, in the Kingdom, who will occasionally disobey the Lord’s commands and make it necessary for Him to set penalties for failures of worship or sanctity (e.g., Zech. 14:16-19). These mischief-makers in the Kingdom, having multiplied, will be rallied by Satan in the very last battle at the end of the thousand years:... http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=71107 Are you of the same mind? If there are believers who come out of the tribulation, are they to be punished by not being allowed to actually enter heaven, even though they have faith in Christ? It's sort of too bad, so sad, they should have known Christ sooner? So they only get a taste of the truth and then are dealt with as sinners who didn't know Him? Or. Are they a part of the body of Christ and are part of heaven, with sin and flesh, but that's allowed because they came to Christ under special circumstances? If so, doesn't that make God a respector of persons? And doesn't it overturn Scriptures? I would really like to see the Scriptures for this. Because this is what I see: Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. Revelation 21:6-8 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Matthew 22:29-32 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32. I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Luke 20:34-38 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35. But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36. Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 1 Corinthians 15:47-57 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Vic SeekGod.ca 3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. |
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05-15-2009, 02:35 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2009 02:46 PM by Strefanash.)
Post: #56
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RE: What About the Rapture?
That is in line with my point. If anyone comes through the Great Tribulation as a believer that MUST have the Holy Spirit with them, for it says in Romans that if any has not the Spirit he is not a believer.
Therefore either people come to christ after the RApture in the normal way during the Trib, so the restrainer is not the Holy Spirit in the Church , OR It is the Church that goes through the Tribulation, with the Holy Spirit as their comforter. In which case the Restrainer is still not the Holy Spirit. The fact is if we look at church history, it is one of the greatest obscenities in the world. The church has not restrained anything, in fact has often promulgated great evil. So its removal would not constitute the removal of the restrainer. (and yes, before you protest that the born again true church were different I will ask you to see who St Paul was criticizing in his letters - the church at Corinth etc, or only the non christians hangers on. I myself have committed more evil as a chfristian than before. My attempts to keep the Law stirred up my sin and made it worse. We are NOT the simon pure golden haired ones who can do no wrong. we are usually quite the contrary, as seen in our fruit and in our history over millenia) There might be a biblical case for pre trib rapture if no believing saints were ever mentioned in scripture as going through the Great Trib, but this is clearly not so I have to admit that to me the kind contortions of scripture that the pre tribbers need to go through to defend their case is evidence of the falsity of the case The elect is Israel? How is this other than appeal to your pre trib case? One becomes the elect by faith in christ, those who have faith in christ are the church. By definition. LindaR, you askd me for scripture when i wrote earlier. You had referred to Matthew 24 without quoting it. So i got it out and read it. So i summatized the passage without quoting it. Why did you ask me for scripture here when you did not give me any. I responded the same way you did, by reference not quotation. THe fact is I am upset by your question "where is the scripture?" I presented a case, reasoning about the natiure of various things and it was totally ignored simply because i gave allusions to scripture rather than direct quotations. Are you not so soaked in scripture than allusion will do? You give the appearance of wanting to sidestep what I said by noticing that i quoted no scripture. Am I completely mistaken in assuming a thorough knowledge of scripture ? THis is not conducive to amicable debate IMO. I would appeal to you to reread my post wherein I referrred to Matthew 24, and answer the concerns raised. Otherwise i will simply abandon the discussion of this question |
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05-15-2009, 06:51 PM
Post: #57
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RE: What About the Rapture?
(05-15-2009 01:59 PM)Vic Wrote: LindaQuote:....The presence of the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church is the "restraining" factor keeping the Antichrist (the "beast") from unleahing his evil in this world. Once He (the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church) is "taken out of the way" (2 Thess. 2:7), all "hell" will break loose! God will pour out His judgment on the Christ-rejecting world and fulfill His covenant with the nation of Israel ....The Holy Spirit indwelling the Body of Christ/the Church is "taken out of the way"....not removed. Since the Holy Spirit is God and God is omnipresent, His presence will still remain on the earth...but He will not "indwell". He will work as He did in the Old Testament times...He will "come upon" people as He came upon David: ...Hell will be the same for all the lost; heaven will be the same for all the "saints" of every age. God is not respector of persons. If you are lost you go to hell...if you are saved (only one way to be saved), your eternal home is heaven. During the dispensation of grace, the Holy Spirit indwells all believers. There is no specific Scripture which states that the Holy Spirit will not indwell those who go through the Tribulation, however there is no specific Scripture reference that states the Holy Spirit WILL indwell those people. Revelation 7:1-8 states that there will be 144,000 (12, 000 from each of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel) who will be "sealed" in their foreheads"...but it doesn't say "indwelt". The presence of the Holy Spirit will remain on the earth, but He will work as He did during the Old Testament period. The promise of an indwelling Holy Spirit that guarantees our eternal destiny is uniquely given to the Church. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30) No Old Testament believer enjoyed such a relationship. Even King David, a man after God's own heart, prayed that God would not take the Holy Spirit from him following his sin with Bathsheba. (Psalm 51:11) Old Testament believers were not promised that the Spirit of God would be sealed within them as a guarantee of their destiny. I am unable to find a single verse that makes such a promise to Tribulation believers. The only time Scripture speaks of the HS "indwelling" is during the dispensation of grace, which ends with the Rapture of the Church. Quote:The new covenant does not revert back to the old covenant in the tribulation. The old covenant is vanished away. The old way does not come back, or are you suggesting that when the New Covenant came in, it was temporary, and those in the tribulation are unique and different than other believers? Which means it contradicts your other statement. Don't all believers in Christ have access to the same promises in Scripture? The definition of the New Covenant from the Way of Life Encyclopedia is one of the best I've found on this topic: Quote:New Covenant: (Jeremiah 31:1-33; Hebrews 8:7-13; 10:9-22). This is God's promise to give free blessing to men through Jesus Christ. It was given to the nation Israel (Jeremiah 31:1-34), but Christians also share in the spiritual aspects of the New covenant through Christ (Hebrews 8:7-13). The New covenant with Israel promises that God will restore them to their promised land and give them a new heart to obey Him. This will happen when Jesus returns from Heaven (Romans 11:25-27; Zechariah 13:1-9). No, the New Covenant didn't revert back to the Old Covenant. As the above definition and Hebrews 8 states, the New Covenant was made with the "house of Israel", not the Church. However, every member of the Body of Christ/the Church partakes of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant through Christ. Quote:The way God is speaking to His people through the Holy Spirit is only and because of Christ dying. We have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit--and are sealed by Him. Those who know Christ, who is the only way of salvation, are to have the indwelling of His Spirit. That is part of the New Covenant. Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...we are not His. The Holy Spirit convicts men of sin and reveals to them their need of a Savior.Israel and the Church are not the same. Remember, I told you I am a dispensationalist (not ultra)...and this is the way I interpret Scripture. There are Old Testament believers, New Testament believers (the Church...both Jews and Gentiles), tribulation saints (Jews and Gentiles who come to faith in Christ during the Tribulation) and there will more than likely be believers during the Millennial Kingdom. But there is only ONE Church. The Church was a "mystery" in the OT...it is never mentioned. There are not different classes of believers...just different dispensations during which people got saved...and all are saved through faith based on the shed blood of Christ on Calvary...OT believers were looking forward to that "promise" and we look back at Christ's finished work on Calvary). The ground is "level" at the foot of the Cross. God is no respector of persons! Quote:2 Corinthians 4:13-14 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14. Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.One is able to believe during the Tribulation, but the Holy Spirit will be as He was during the Old Testament. My explanation is answered in your first question. As far as Zola Levitt is concerned...I listened to him alot. There are some things he taught,with which I disagreed. He was a mixed bag. I quit listening to him when he got "ecumenical". Quote:Those people who come to faith in Christ during the Tribulation will more than likely be martyred. (Revelation 20:4) Those who are saved and survive physically (endure to the end...Matthew 24:13) will enter the Kingdom in their normal bodies. These are the ones who will populate the Kingdom. I'm going to make an assumption here....when these folks die in the Lord, they will go to heaven....however, during the Millennium, they will probably live longer and have children. The children of these people will be born with an Adamic nature, even though Satan will be bound for the 1,000 years. Scripture says that there will be a rebellion at the end of the Millennial Kingdom (which isn't the final Kingdom). Satan will be loosed for a "season" and many will follow him in his final rebellion against God (Gog and Magog) Those who follow Satan will be as "the sand of the sea" (Revelation 20:8)Quote:...The Old Testament saints will be regathered as well at the beginning of the Kingdom Age, and so the kingdom will get under way with rather a mixed crowd, all having in common a sincere belief in the Messiah and King. There will be the faithful of the Old Testament, who waited so long for this grand age, the believers of the Church Age, who went to heaven in the Rapture, and finally the believers of the Tribulation Period, who will enter the Kingdom in their natural bodies. Since they did not come to faith before the Rapture, they were not changed and they remain as they are, still marrying and giving in marriage, unlike the believers of the Church Age. This latter group, the people in their natural bodies, will give birth during the Kingdom to ordinary, fleshly sinners, again “born of Adam.” It is these few on earth, in the Kingdom, who will occasionally disobey the Lord’s commands and make it necessary for Him to set penalties for failures of worship or sanctity (e.g., Zech. 14:16-19). These mischief-makers in the Kingdom, having multiplied, will be rallied by Satan in the very last battle at the end of the thousand years:... http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=71107 There is only ONE body of Christ: There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Ephesians 4:4-6) Quote:I would really like to see the Scriptures for this. Because this is what I see: Matthew 25:32-46 is the Judgment of Nations....this pretty much explains who will populate the Kingdom. These people survived (physically) the Tribulation....some came to faith in Christ, some didn't... Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Quote:Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. |
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05-15-2009, 09:33 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2009 09:35 PM by Liberated by Faith.)
Post: #58
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RE: What About the Rapture?
Vic wrote:
Quote: There are not different classes of believers are there? If so, I really need a Scripture for it. 1 Corinthians 12:1-31 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. It would appear that Paul saw Believers in different classes. For instance, Paul referred to Abraham as being 'strong in the faith' (Romans 4:19,20), and to the Christians at Corinth as being 'yet carnal' (1 Cor. 3:3). Yes, it is evident that even though all believer's place their faith in the One who gives life and gives it more abundantly, there are different classes of Believers. |
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05-15-2009, 09:48 PM
Post: #59
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RE: What About the Rapture?
Hi Linda,
 It really doesn't influence my thinking whether someone is a dispensationalist or not. I want to see Scriptural proof for what a person believes. That is what it is about. Can what you believe stand the test of Scripture? Not conjecture, not opinon...the Scriptures.  You said this : Quote: ..The Holy Spirit indwelling the Body of Christ/the Church is "taken out of the way"....not removed. Since the Holy Spirit is God and God is omnipresent, His presence will still remain on the earth...but He will not "indwell". He will work as He did in the Old Testament times...He will "come upon" people as He came upon David.... Now you are saying > Quote: During the dispensation of grace, the Holy Spirit indwells all believers. There is no specific Scripture which states that the Holy Spirit will not indwell those who go through the Tribulation, You cannot have it both ways. Either the Holy Spirit indwells ALL believers because of the New Covenant, or He does not. You have contradicted your beliefs as shown in the next quote. You said: Quote: "...however there is no specific Scripture reference that states the Holy Spirit WILL indwell those people.. Yes there is Linda. Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit-----NO ONE can know Jesus Christ. No one. The Scriptures say clearly that without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit--they are NONE of His. Romans 8:9-10 But ye are not in the flesh, [b]but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. [b] Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness 2 Corinthians 4:13-14 We [Jews and Gentiles]having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14. Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. 1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. There are zero Scriptures that state the Holy Spirit leaves the earth and any believers. None. You said that: Quote:[quote]The presence of the Holy Spirit will remain on the earth, but He will work as He did during the Old Testament period. The promise of an indwelling Holy Spirit that guarantees our eternal destiny is uniquely given to the Church. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30) No Old Testament believer enjoyed such a relationship. Even King David, a man after God's own heart, prayed that God would not take the Holy Spirit from him following his sin with Bathsheba. (Psalm 51:11) Old Testament believers were not promised that the Spirit of God would be sealed within them as a guarantee of their destiny. I am unable to find a single verse that makes such a promise to Tribulation believers. Exactly Linda.  There is no Scripture that speaks of a separate relationship with Christ for those who may come to Him during the tribulation because with the New Covenant,---there is no difference in the way of salvation or the way to grow in Christ, or the way to wield the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. They will have the same promises that all believers in Jesus Christ have--and that is the conviction and comfort of the Holy Spirit, given by God to ALL who come to Christ. It doesn't matter if it is now or during the tribulation---they are not a distinct group. They either know Jesus Christ and are identified as such by the Holy Spirit or they are none of His. Romans 8:14-27 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. You said: Quote:"....Those people who come to faith in Christ during the Tribulation will more than likely be martyred. (Revelation 20:4) Those who are saved and survive physically (endure to the end...Matthew 24:13) will enter the Kingdom in their normal bodies.These are the ones who will populate the Kingdom. I'm going to make an assumption here....when these folks die in the Lord, they will go to heaven.... That is exactly what Levitt was teaching. And it goes against the Scriptures. And here's why. 1 Corinthians 15:47-57 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. It says that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God. No matter how anyone tries to say otherwise---it is said very clearly in the inspired by God Scriptures. It cannot happen.  You said it, when you said there is only ONE body in Christ.  And all the promises and sanctification, justification and changing, For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56..... Applies to all who come to Christ. Because of the New Covenant. Ephesians 2:18-20 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Christians --those who are Jewish and Gentiles who belong to Jesus Christ--are to have their conversation in Heaven; we are pilgrims to this world--that means Jews and Gentiles--waiting for our heavenly kingdom. Love of anything in this world, including land, houses, cities, goes against the Scriptures. Christ has gone to prepare a place for all believers. Philippians 3:20-21 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21. Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. 2 Peter 3:9-14 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12. Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. Hebrews 11:12-16 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. 1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; 1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. We are to focus on the things of Christ, knowing we have a heavenly city prepared for us--that is--for all believers. Hebrews 12:22-29 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26. Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29. For our God is a consuming fire. Galatians 4:22-31 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. Jesus made a promise to all believers, Jews and Gentiles: John 14:1-4 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. We are to look for His return, but for me, knowing that when I die I will see Him face to face is enough to satisfy. It seems that for many, they haved missed that all those who have gone before, are in Paradise with Christ, and seem to think that the rapture concept somehow makes that less than exceptional. I doubt those already with Christ think that at all. 1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. Hebrews 12:1-2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 
Vic SeekGod.ca 3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. |
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05-15-2009, 10:39 PM
Post: #60
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RE: What About the Rapture?
(05-15-2009 09:33 PM)Liberated by Faith Wrote: It would appear that Paul saw Believers in different classes. For instance, Paul referred to Abraham as being 'strong in the faith' (Romans 4:19,20), and to the Christians at Corinth as being 'yet carnal' (1 Cor. 3:3). Oh contrare. We are one in the Body of Christ, God's workmanship, and each and every person given gifts by the Holy Spirit for His purposes and by His decision. It isn't based on a caste system. We are called to faith and Jesus is the author and finisher of that faith. There are different levels of maturity, but that doesn't a class distinction. Those new to the faith are not going to be as far along in the faith and knowledge--maybe--than those who have walked with Christ for years. But you know what---we are all a sweet savour to Him the moment we come to Christ. Because all we have is because of HIM. We are to esteem others better than ourselves. Mat 19:30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first. Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. Mark 9:34-35 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves,]b] who should be the greatest. [/b] 35. And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them,[/b] If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.[/b] 2 Timothy 2:5-6 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully. 6. The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits. Matthew 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. 1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31. That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. John 5:44 Jesus said: "How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. From the passage you quoted, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the so called difference in believers now and during the Tribulation ie having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as those under the New Covenant and all the promises that come with it, we see: Quote:But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body....but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. I see absolutely nothing there that would indicate, suggest, or state clearly that anyone of those in the Body of Christ, do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which the Scriptures clearly state is the state of all those who belong to Jesus Christ. Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 1 Corinthians 4:6-7 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. 7. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? 2 Corinthians 1:19-22 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. 20. For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 21. Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22. Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. James 3:13 -18 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. 15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 [/b]In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. [/b] Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. 4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5 For every man shall bear his own burden. 6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. 7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[b] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith. It's about Christ, about God's grace and redemption, the New Covenant which also brought the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to all who believe in Jesus Christ. It wasn't an option. It was proof one belonged to Christ. Vic SeekGod.ca 3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. |
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