What About The Rapture?

[LindaR]

(05-15-2009 09:48 PM)Vic Wrote:  Hi Linda,

It really doesn't influence my thinking whether someone is a dispensationalist or not. I want to see Scriptural proof for what a person believes. That is what it is about. Can what you believe stand the test of Scripture? Not conjecture, not opinon...the Scriptures.

I sincerely believe that I have backed up what I believe with Scriptures.

Quote:You said this :

Quote: ..The Holy Spirit indwelling the Body of Christ/the Church is "taken out of the way"....not removed. Since the Holy Spirit is God and God is omnipresent, His presence will still remain on the earth...but He will not "indwell". He will work as He did in the Old Testament times...He will "come upon" people as He came upon David....

Now you are saying>

Quote: During the dispensation of grace, the Holy Spirit indwells all believers. There is no specific Scripture which states that the Holy Spirit will not indwell those who go through the Tribulation,

Quote:You cannot have it both ways. Either the Holy Spirit indwells ALL believers because of the New Covenant, or He does not. You have contradicted your beliefs as shown in the next quote.

You said:

Quote: "...however there is no specific Scripture reference that states the Holy Spirit WILL indwell those people..

Yes there is Linda. Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit-----NO ONE can know Jesus Christ. No one. The Scriptures say clearly that without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit--they are NONE of His.

Romans 8:9-10 But ye are not in the flesh, [b]but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. [b] Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness

2 Corinthians 4:13-14 We [Jews and Gentiles]having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14. Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

There are zero Scriptures that state the Holy Spirit leaves the earth and any believers. None.

How did the Old Testament saints know God? They were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit...and yet 22 Old Testament saints penned the Old Testament Scriptures:

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:20-21)

The presence of the Holy Spirit "came upon" the OT saints as it will during the Tribulation period. The OT saints KNEW the presence of the Holy Spirit, but they were not indwelt.

The Spirit of the Lord/Holy Spirit "came upon" David:

Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah. (1 Samuel 16:13)

The Spirit of the Lord/Holy Spirit "came upon" Samson:

And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and he had nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done. (Judges 14:6)

Those are just two examples where we see the Holy Spirit "coming upon" the OT saints. There are many more.

Quote:You said that:

Quote:The presence of the Holy Spirit will remain on the earth, but He will work as He did during the Old Testament period. The promise of an indwelling Holy Spirit that guarantees our eternal destiny is uniquely given to the Church. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30) No Old Testament believer enjoyed such a relationship. Even King David, a man after God's own heart, prayed that God would not take the Holy Spirit from him following his sin with Bathsheba. (Psalm 51:11) Old Testament believers were not promised that the Spirit of God would be sealed within them as a guarantee of their destiny. I am unable to find a single verse that makes such a promise to Tribulation believers.

Quote:Exactly Linda.

There is no Scripture that speaks of a separate relationship with Christ for those who may come to Him during the tribulation because with the New Covenant,---there is no difference in the way of salvation or the way to grow in Christ, or the way to wield the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. They will have the same promises that all believers in Jesus Christ have--and that is the conviction and comfort of the Holy Spirit, given by God to ALL who come to Christ. It doesn't matter if it is now or during the tribulation---they are not a distinct group. They either know Jesus Christ and are identified as such by the Holy Spirit or they are none of His.

Romans 8:14-27 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Believers are believers....however the distinctions are found in the different dispensations in which these believers came to faith in Christ. A dispensation refers to the administration of God's eternal plan. We know that the Old Testament believers were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, but the PRESENCE of the Holy Spirit was known because He "came upon" those believers. This was during the dispensation of the Law. Jesus was "made of a woman, under the law, to redeem them that were under the law"... (Gal. 4:4,5). The coming of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2) at Pentecost to indwell the 120 began a new dispensation....the dispensation of the grace of God (Ephesians 3:2) After the Church is "caught up", this dispensation of grace will end and the "Day of the Lord" will begin (from the beginning of the Tribulation until the end of the Millennial Kingdom).

Quote:You said:

Quote:"....Those people who come to faith in Christ during the Tribulation will more than likely be martyred. (Revelation 20:4) Those who are saved and survive physically (endure to the end...Matthew 24:13) will enter the Kingdom in their normal bodies.These are the ones who will populate the Kingdom. I'm going to make an assumption here....when these folks die in the Lord, they will go to heaven....

The "Kingdom" of which I am speaking is Israel's earthly Millennial Kingdom....not the Eternal Kingdom (new heaven and new earth..Rev. 21). The Millennial Kingdom is not the final Kingdom. There will be judgment at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ, when Satan is loosed for a "season" to deceive the nations. Therefore, since Satan's followers in this rebellion will be as the "sand of the sea", there has to be people who will be populating the earth at this time. (Rev. 20:8)

Quote:That is exactly what Levitt was teaching. And it goes against the Scriptures. And here's why.

1 Corinthians 15:47-57 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

It says that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God. No matter how anyone tries to say otherwise---it is said very clearly in the inspired by God Scriptures. It cannot happen.

1 Cor. 15:47-57 are speaking of the Rapture (the resurrection of the NT believers/the Church)

The Kingdom of God is not the Millennial Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is the new heaven and new earth (Rev. 21:1) The Millennial Kingdom is Israel's earthly Kingdom.

Flesh and blood will definitely NOT inherit the Kingdom of God:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)

Quote: You said it, when you said there is only ONE body in Christ. And all the promises and sanctification, justification and changing, For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56.....
Applies to all who come to Christ. Because of the New Covenant.

Ephesians 2:18-20 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

All who come to Christ during the dispensation of grace will be indwelt with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14). They will partake of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant through Christ. (Ephesians 1:3) Today is the day of salvation (2 Cor. 6:2). Judgment is coming!

Quote: Christians --those who are Jewish and Gentiles who belong to Jesus Christ--are to have their conversation in Heaven; we are pilgrims to this world--that means Jews and Gentiles--waiting for our heavenly kingdom. Love of anything in this world, including land, houses, cities, goes against the Scriptures. Christ has gone to prepare a place for all believers.

Philippians 3:20-21 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21. Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

2 Peter 3:9-14 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12. Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Hebrews 11:12-16 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

We are to focus on the things of Christ, knowing we have a heavenly city prepared for us--that is--for all believers.

Hebrews 12:22-29 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26. Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29. For our God is a consuming fire.

Galatians 4:22-31 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Jesus made a promise to all believers, Jews and Gentiles:

John 14:1-4 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

We are to look for His return, but for me, knowing that when I die I will see Him face to face is enough to satisfy. It seems that for many, they haved missed that all those who have gone before, are in Paradise with Christ, and seem to think that the rapture concept somehow makes that less than exceptional. I doubt those already with Christ think that at all.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Hebrews 12:1-2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:1-3)

This world is not my home, I'm just passing through.
My treasures are laid up somewhere beyond the blue.
The angels beckon me from Heaven's open door
And I can't feel at home in this world anymore

Words and Music by Albert E. Brumley
© 1965 - Albert E. Brumley & Sons
All Rights Reserved

[sheep wrecked]

Quote: Linda:
How did the Old Testament saints know God? They were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit...and yet 22 Old Testament saints penned the Old Testament Scriptures:

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:20-21)

The presence of the Holy Spirit "came upon" the OT saints as it will during the Tribulation period. The OT saints KNEW the presence of the Holy Spirit, but they were not indwelt.

The Spirit of the Lord/Holy Spirit "came upon" David:

Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah. (1 Samuel 16:13)

The Spirit of the Lord/Holy Spirit "came upon" Samson:

And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and he had nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done. (Judges 14:6)

Those are just two examples where we see the Holy Spirit "coming upon" the OT saints. There are many more.

Let me see if I can clarify this a bit.

In the OT Jesus had not yet been manifested as the Propitiation for sin, therefore; the OT saints were "covered" by faith as we read in Heb 11, and through the sacrifice of animals for sin - not by salvation through the blood of Christ. The promise was that some day their inheritance would be revealed in Christ > the promise of the Holy Spirit indwelt. See Eph 1 and Gal 3.

The New Covenant changed how man could be atoned for sin and therefore a change in covenants. Ez shows us that in this new covenant, the Holy Spirit would indwell changing the heart. The old covenant did not provide for the indwelt Spirit because atonement was not completely provided for. It was a temporary "fix" that had to be applied over and over again, so there was no inner cleansing from sin like we have in Christ.

Just as the Holy Spirit was "upon" men, so the atonement was "upon", not "within".

The change in the covenants was pervasive, inclusive of the spiritual man - a better covenant with better promises in Christ. To go back under the old covenant with the Holy Spirit "upon", instead of "within", the trib saints would have to sacrifice animals again for that temporary atonement and adhere to the Levitical system which would include all of the Mosaic Law. They would not be fully justified and sanctified before God. This only happens with the indwelt Spirit through the shed blood of Christ.

Jesus explains this in John 3:

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there rises another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifies, You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is truly a cancellation of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw near to God.

How do we draw near to God? Through the indwelt Holy Spirit. Without the indwelt Holy Spirit there is no knowledge of Christ, for in Him *only* is life - eternal life. The Holy Spirit IS Christ indwelt and if the Holy Spirit is not indwelt, one is dead spiritually. To be "in" Christ is to be indwelt by His Spirit, or we are not one of His.

Quote:Linda:
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:1-3)

I wonder if you really believe this. John says that "*EVERY MAN* hath this hope in Him PURIFIETH himself, even as He is pure". What you are stating is that trib saints cannot be purified [sanctified], when the text clearly contradicts you. The only way, under the New Covenant, to be purified is through the blood of Christ and the indwelt Holy Spirit.

Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.


Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace?

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you, and peace, be multiplied.

[Vic]

Linda, I love you in the Lord, but you are in error. Serious error.

Your cannot add to or change the word of God for the sake of tradition or manmade doctrine or interpretations of Scripture. We are forbidden to do that.

Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof comes envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw yourself.

We are not to change the word of God to prove our beliefs.

Ephesians 5:9-10 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10. Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

Philippians 1:9-11 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10. That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; 11. Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are to prove our beliefs to the Word of God and if they dont match we are in error. We do not change the Word to make it match our beliefs.

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Your beliefs do not match what the Word says concerning those who are in Christ, and they do not stand the test of Scripture. If people in the tribulation do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling as proof they belong to Jesus Christ and are sealed by the Holy Spirit---they don't have any of the other promises associated with the New Covenant, including salvation. And that is not Scriptural. If they have the Holy Spirit and don't have all the other promises that go with the New Covenant, that is also not Scriptural.

Galatians 3:24-29 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You have not proven your position by Scripture. You have proven your beliefs are based on opinion of what may or not happen. But that is not the proof. And by changing what makes a believer in Jesus Christ because of the New Covenant with zero Scriptures showing they would not have the same relationship and hope because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, you have overturned the gospel for them and the promises within New Covenant.

Dispensations don't make Scriptures. They support the truth throughout all Scripture or they are false beliefs. It isn't a guessing game, The Scriptures were given to be the Standard of Truth. Not opinion, not conjecture, not anything but the Word of God.

2 Peter 1:19-21 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

I don't care who it is that teaches this or believes this.

1Ti 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Without applying all we know about who we are in Christ, and the promises for all who come to Him, from the Scriptures, there is error. And that is as clear to me as this computer screen.

Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

I have proven my statements with Scripture after Scripture which speak for themselves of the truth they hold. It isn't about my opinion or yours. It is what the Scriptures say.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

[Emjesown]

Litle note from me:

Therefor the restrainer cannot be the Holy Spirit
i was thinking of Michael the arch angel
sonce he made war with satan , before he throws him out of heaven
he withhold satan so to speak until.....

[Strefanash]

I would also require a biblical study on the term "elect" separate and distinct from the question of the Great Tribulation to find proof that the elect, in the time post ascension, applies to Israel.

If it does, without, I repeat, appealing to the pre tribulation position, then i will take that as evidence that the elect is something other than the church.

But to appeal to the truth of the pre trib position to establish that the elect MUST be Israel is the fallacy petitio principii, also known as begging the question - to argue in a circle, assuming the truth of ewhat you are seeking to prove in order to prove it. Such a tactic is invalid

[sheep wrecked]

(05-16-2009 04:19 PM)Emjesown Wrote:  Litle note from me:

Therefor the restrainer cannot be the Holy Spirit
i was thinking of Michael the arch angel
sonce he made war with satan , before he throws him out of heaven
he withhold satan so to speak until.....

Hi emje!

satan was already thrown out of Heaven. Michael never withheld satan as satan is only under the authority of God and always will be. Jesus said this:

Luk 10:18 And he said to them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

It has been said that Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 describe satan before his fall and that pride caused him to rebell against God. It has also been stated that Revelation partially describes how a third of the angels were cast out with satan.

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns on his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


satan is now god of this world until Christ returns.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine to them.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour:

[Vic]

(05-16-2009 04:23 PM)Strefanash Wrote:  I would also require a biblical study on the term "elect" separate and distinct from the question of the Great Tribulation to find proof that the elect, in the time post ascension, applies to Israel.

If it does, without, I repeat, appealing to the pre tribulation position, then i will take that as evidence that the elect is something other than the church.

But to appeal to the truth of the pre trib position to establish that the elect MUST be Israel is the fallacy petitio principii, also known as begging the question - to argue in a circle, assuming the truth of ewhat you are seeking to prove in order to prove it. Such a tactic is invalid

The word elect:

elect

G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
Thayer Definition:
1) picked out, chosen
1a) chosen by God
1a1) to obtain salvation through Christ
1a1a) Christians are called “chosen or elect” of God
1a2) the Messiah in called “elect”, as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
1a3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1586

Strong's elect G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.

Total KJV Occurrences: 23
elect: 13

Mat_24:24, Mat_24:31, Mar_13:22, Mar_13:27, Luk_18:7, Rom_8:33, Col_3:12, 1Ti_5:21, Tit_1:1, 1Pe_1:2, 1Pe_2:6, 2Jo_1:1, 2Jo_1:13

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Titus 1:1-2 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Luke 18:7-9 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8. I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? 9. And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

Colossians 3:10-12 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 11. Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 12. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

chosen, 7

Mat_20:16, Mat_22:14, Luk_23:35, Rom_16:13, 1Pe_2:4, 1Pe_2:9, Rev_17:14

Rom 16:13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

1 Peter 2:1-6 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2. As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 3. If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. 4. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5. Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

1 Peter 2:9-10 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

elect’s, 3
Mat_24:22, Mar_13:20, 2Ti_2:10

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

2 Timothy 2:9-10 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. 10. Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

[Vic]

I should also add this thought.

Acts 2:36-39 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

It is being suggested that the Jews will witness to Gentiles during the tribulation---but they wont have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, or the other promises related to that, but rather, it will revert back to before the New Covenant was put into place, and the Holy Spirit was upon individuals, not indwelling all believers.

Peter stated here that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was part of the promise to Israel.

[Strefanash]

I take Vic's study here of the term elect to mean that the elect can only be the church. I was looking for a proof that the elect could apply to israel, and none was given.

If the elect is the church then the church will go through the Tribulation. We the saints will be overcome (ie killed). it does not follow friom this that satan wouldl win (ie the gates of hell will not prevail upon it - the church), making this a false scenario. It does prove that the Chruch is an eternal body beyond satans reach

As for another proof of this, the post trib rapture, when is the rapture (ie first resurrection)?

"at the last trump" I Cor 15:52. As a friend told me just yesteday it is staring us full in the face, for when is the last trumpet? AT THE SECOND COMING

And

[sheep wrecked]

(07-02-2009 11:12 PM)Strefanash Wrote:  I take Vic's study here of the term elect to mean that the elect can only be the church. I was looking for a proof that the elect could apply to israel, and none was given.

If the elect is the church then the church will go through the Tribulation. We the saints will be overcome (ie killed). it does not follow friom this that satan wouldl win (ie the gates of hell will not prevail upon it - the church), making this a false scenario. It does prove that the Chruch is an eternal body beyond satans reach

As for another proof of this, the post trib rapture, when is the rapture (ie first resurrection)?

"at the last trump" I Cor 15:52. As a friend told me just yesteday it is staring us full in the face, for when is the last trumpet? AT THE SECOND COMING

And

The context of the passage refers to all nations, all people groups - the elect are simply the saved, regardless of ethnicity. I have also listed other NT passages that refer to the elect as all the saved, including the Jews. The same greek word is used for elect.

Please note the warning for the rapturists. Jesus only comes back once and if others point to the fact that He has returned before the Trib they have some scripture here that totally refutes it.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.