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sheep wrecked · (This post was last modified: 02-09-2011 01:32 PM by sheep wrecked.)

(02-09-2011 10:24 AM)Saltyone Wrote:
(02-08-2011 06:54 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: Also, in Jude it says that Jesus comes with the saints - in other words, those that have died will come with Him, be changed with us in a twinkling of an eye, when we meet Him in the air, receive an incorruptible body in place of the corruptible and continue with Him to the earth. I think that makes sense in what the Scriptures tell us. [1 Cor 15]

You said in Jude that Jesus comes with His saints

In Matt 24 It says that he comes for His saints or to gather His elect
Matt 24:30-31
30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Here all the tribes of the earth see only the Son of Man coming (by Himself ) in the clouds with Power and Great Glory. The saints are not with Him at this time.

31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here He sends His angels to gather His elect. The saints are not with Him until they are gathered by His angels.

1 Thes 4:16
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Notice it is only the Lord HIMSELF who comes from heaven and then the dead rise and we follow.

At this time when the Lord comes in Matt 24 & 1 Thes 4 He comes by Himself to gather his elect.

In Jude, which is what you were referring to, this is talking about Rev 19

Rev 19:11-14
11: And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12: His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13: And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14: And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Here when He comes the saints are already in heaven and follow Him upon white horses
BTW I have been reading a book called "The Sign" by Robert Van Kampen. Has anyone heard of this or read this book????
This is the book that has changed my view from Pre trib to Pre Wrath. It has cleared up a lot of things that I did see wrong with the pre trib view.
I believe this is the correct view. If anyone has read this or has problems with it, let me know so I can do the research. Thanks

The bodies of the saints who have died are not in Heaven. Only the spirit goes to Heaven. The corruptible [earthly body] will not be changed into the incorruptible until Jesus returns when the Trump sounds. When Jesus returns, according to 1 Thess 4, the dead will rise first, then the believers will join them in the air and all will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

The spirits of the saints, who are in Heaven are who accompany Christ. We cannot see them, they do not have bodies.

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I do not quite understand your position that the angels, who will gathered the elect happens after Christ returns. If all tribes and peoples see Him, that includes saints, not just unbelievers. If every eye sees Him, it's means "every person" dead or alive, right?

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

From my perspective, this completely blends with what Paul wrote - it is an instantaneous event - the trump, the loud voice, Christ's coming, the gathering of the saints, the resurrection of the dead saints with alive saints in the air, the twinkling of an eye - it happens all in a "nanosecond"

Remember, we are dealing in earth time in this age. That all comes to an end when the trump blows.

Let me ask you a question. If the dead arise first [earthy body], then how will their spirit be reunited with them and changed along with the living, in the air with Christ if they do not come back with Christ?

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, [b]Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all,[/b] and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

The armies in Rev, from what other Scriptures speaks of, are warriors - the angels are referred to as the "Hosts" of the Lord, which are His armies. Is there a reference to saints as warriors anywhere else?

Rev 19:14 And the armies [G4753] which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

G4753
στράτευμα
strateuma
Thayer Definition:
1) an army
2) a band of soldiers
3) bodyguard, guards men

I was reminded of this verse:

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

We struggle [wrestle] with/against evil, but we do not rage war with the devil. We stand, fully armored with salvation, the Gospel of peace, righteousness, faith, truth, prayer, and the Word of God - we are not physical warriors. Jesus Christ/God is the One and His angels are the ones who fights His enemies, not us Biggrin

[check out Daniel 10 when the prince of persia (satan) withstood against Michael (angel) for 21 days]

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

And that verse sort of opens up the whole discussion on why Rev is mostly allegorical than literal when it comes to fighting battles, the 1000 yr reign, the setting free of satan for time, etc.