What About The Rapture?

[sheep wrecked]

(02-08-2011 02:15 PM)Saltyone Wrote:  I have to say that at the time I did those responses I was a pre trib, even though I saw problems with it. Just as I saw problems with the mid and post trib.

Sheep

Where does it say that we will descend to earth with him after we meet him in the air?

It would depend on your view of when Christ returns. If one views Christ as coming back once as the Bible tells us that when He returns it will be as He left - to the Mt of Olives, and we are meeting Him in the air as He comes to earth, then the logical view is that we will come down with Him, as we will be with Him forever. Also, in Jude it says that Jesus comes with the saints - in other words, those that have died will come with Him, be changed with us in a twinkling of an eye, when we meet Him in the air, receive an incorruptible body in place of the corruptible and continue with Him to the earth. I think that makes sense in what the Scriptures tell us. [1 Cor 15]

The problem with the rapture theory is that no where does it say in Scripture that Jesus is taking us up to Heaven and then returning yet again. Jesus leaves Heaven once and once only. In fact, Rev speaks of Heaven coming to earth [new earth]. So there is kind of a double standard in a rapture theory.

The word in 1 Thess 4 is harpazo [caught up], not "rapture". "Rapture" is an entire doctrine on the "two last" comings of Christ.

I looked up "rapture" in Websters and found this - as you can see, it's a mystic term which should raise red flags immediately!


Definition of RAPTURE
1: an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion
2a : a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion b : a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things
3often capitalized : the final assumption of Christians into heaven during the end-time according to Christian theology

[Saltyone]

(02-08-2011 06:54 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:   Also, in Jude it says that Jesus comes with the saints - in other words, those that have died will come with Him, be changed with us in a twinkling of an eye, when we meet Him in the air, receive an incorruptible body in place of the corruptible and continue with Him to the earth. I think that makes sense in what the Scriptures tell us. [1 Cor 15]

You said in Jude that Jesus comes with His saints

In Matt 24 It says that he comes for His saints or to gather His elect
Matt 24:30-31
30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Here all the tribes of the earth see only the Son of Man coming (by Himself ) in the clouds with Power and Great Glory. The saints are not with Him at this time.

31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here He sends His angels to gather His elect. The saints are not with Him until they are gathered by His angels.

1 Thes 4:16
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Notice it is only the Lord HIMSELF who comes from heaven and then the dead rise and we follow.

At this time when the Lord comes in Matt 24 & 1 Thes 4 He comes by Himself to gather his elect.


In Jude, which is what you were referring to, this is talking about Rev 19

Rev 19:11-14
11: And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12: His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13: And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14: And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Here when He comes the saints are already in heaven and follow Him upon white horses

---

BTW I have been reading a book called "The Sign" by Robert Van Kampen. Has anyone heard of this or read this book????
This is the book that has changed my view from Pre trib to Pre Wrath. It has cleared up a lot of things that I did see wrong with the pre trib view.
I believe this is the correct view. If anyone has read this or has problems with it, let me know so I can do the research. Thanks

[sheep wrecked]

(02-09-2011 10:24 AM)Saltyone Wrote:  

(02-08-2011 06:54 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:   Also, in Jude it says that Jesus comes with the saints - in other words, those that have died will come with Him, be changed with us in a twinkling of an eye, when we meet Him in the air, receive an incorruptible body in place of the corruptible and continue with Him to the earth. I think that makes sense in what the Scriptures tell us. [1 Cor 15]

You said in Jude that Jesus comes with His saints

In Matt 24 It says that he comes for His saints or to gather His elect
Matt 24:30-31
30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Here all the tribes of the earth see only the Son of Man coming (by Himself ) in the clouds with Power and Great Glory. The saints are not with Him at this time.

31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here He sends His angels to gather His elect. The saints are not with Him until they are gathered by His angels.

1 Thes 4:16
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Notice it is only the Lord HIMSELF who comes from heaven and then the dead rise and we follow.

At this time when the Lord comes in Matt 24 & 1 Thes 4 He comes by Himself to gather his elect.


In Jude, which is what you were referring to, this is talking about Rev 19

Rev 19:11-14
11: And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12: His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13: And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14: And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Here when He comes the saints are already in heaven and follow Him upon white horses

---

BTW I have been reading a book called "The Sign" by Robert Van Kampen. Has anyone heard of this or read this book????
This is the book that has changed my view from Pre trib to Pre Wrath. It has cleared up a lot of things that I did see wrong with the pre trib view.
I believe this is the correct view. If anyone has read this or has problems with it, let me know so I can do the research. Thanks

The bodies of the saints who have died are not in Heaven. Only the spirit goes to Heaven. The corruptible [earthly body] will not be changed into the incorruptible until Jesus returns when the Trump sounds. When Jesus returns, according to 1 Thess 4, the dead will rise first, then the believers will join them in the air and all will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

The spirits of the saints, who are in Heaven are who accompany Christ. We cannot see them, they do not have bodies.

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I do not quite understand your position that the angels, who will gathered the elect happens after Christ returns. If all tribes and peoples see Him, that includes saints, not just unbelievers. If every eye sees Him, it's means "every person" dead or alive, right?

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

From my perspective, this completely blends with what Paul wrote - it is an instantaneous event - the trump, the loud voice, Christ's coming, the gathering of the saints, the resurrection of the dead saints with alive saints in the air, the twinkling of an eye - it happens all in a "nanosecond" Remember, we are dealing in earth time in this age. That all comes to an end when the trump blows.

Let me ask you a question. If the dead arise first [earthy body], then how will their spirit be reunited with them and changed along with the living, in the air with Christ if they do not come back with Christ?

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, [b]Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all,[/b] and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

The armies in Rev, from what other Scriptures speaks of, are warriors - the angels are referred to as the "Hosts" of the Lord, which are His armies. Is there a reference to saints as warriors anywhere else?

Rev 19:14 And the armies [G4753] which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

G4753
στράτευμα
strateuma
Thayer Definition:
1) an army
2) a band of soldiers
3) bodyguard, guards men

I was reminded of this verse:

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

We struggle [wrestle] with/against evil, but we do not rage war with the devil. We stand, fully armored with salvation, the Gospel of peace, righteousness, faith, truth, prayer, and the Word of God - we are not physical warriors. Jesus Christ/God is the One and His angels are the ones who fights His enemies, not us [check out Daniel 10 when the prince of persia (satan) withstood against Michael (angel) for 21 days]

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

And that verse sort of opens up the whole discussion on why Rev is mostly allegorical than literal when it comes to fighting battles, the 1000 yr reign, the setting free of satan for time, etc.

[Saltyone]

quote='sheep wrecked



The spirits of the saints, who are in Heaven are who accompany Christ. We cannot see them, they do not have bodies.

I do not quite understand your position that the angels, who will gathered the elect happens after Christ returns. If all tribes and peoples see Him, that includes saints, not just unbelievers. If every eye sees Him, it's means "every person" dead or alive, right?

From my perspective, this completely blends with what Paul wrote - it is an instantaneous event - the trump, the loud voice, Christ's coming, the gathering of the saints, the resurrection of the dead saints with alive saints in the air, the twinkling of an eye - it happens all in a "nanosecond"


Matt 24:30-31

30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

Yes, this does all happen quickly, but the first thing that will happen is the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds and everyone will see him. Now think about this. You cannot see the Son of man coming in the clouds in a nanosecond. It would be too fast. You would see nothing. The thing that will be fast is when he sends his angels with a great trumpet sound to gather his elect. This part coincides with what Paul wrote. It happens just as it is written..

I agree with you that the Lord will came back with his saints to the earth, which is a reference to Rev 19, but in Matt 24 and in 1 Thes 4 I believe it clearly says that the Lord will come by Himself as stated above.

Rev 19 says the armies are clothed in fine white cleaned linen. That’s a reference to the saints. And they are riding white horses and clothed. So they are not invisible. You cannot make or force things to fit your belief.

[sheep wrecked]

(02-09-2011 03:46 PM)Saltyone Wrote:  Yes, this does all happen quickly, but the first thing that will happen is the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds and everyone will see him. Now think about this. You cannot see the Son of man coming in the clouds in a nanosecond. It would be too fast. You would see nothing. The thing that will be fast is when he sends his angels with a great trumpet sound to gather his elect. This part coincides with what Paul wrote. It happens just as it is written.

Jesus will appear in a nanosecond, not for a nanosecond Everything happens at once, at the same time. Again, we are looking at the events from earth time, not God's timing. His coming is instantaneous, immediate. The second we see Him, we will rise and with the dead bodies of the saints. They will rise first, then we go up. It's not a countdown. It all happens at once. It will come to pass in a twinkling of an eye and that's pretty quick!!!

Quote:I agree with you that the Lord will came back with his saints to the earth, which is a reference to Rev 19, but in Matt 24 and in 1 Thes 4 I believe it clearly says that the Lord will come by Himself as stated above.

Does it say that?

And you did not answer my question. If the saints rise from the dead, when are they made incorruptible? Their spirits are in Heaven, not their bodies.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Quote:Rev 19 says the armies are clothed in fine white cleaned linen. That’s a reference to the saints. And they are riding white horses and clothed. So they are not invisible. You cannot make or force things to fit your belief.

From Scripture, only our spirits are with God, not our bodies. The last enemy to be overcome is death. Death refers to the human corruptible body. Which is why Paul spends most of 1 Cor 15 showing us that when Christ returns, death will have no sting, because we will be made incorruptible then, and then only. There are no saints in Heaven in corruptible bodies, nor have they been made incorruptible as of yet. This will not happen until Jesus returns - which is the hope/the goal of salvation. It's an important point that Paul clearly makes both in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15.

The armies in Heaven are referred to dozens of times in the OT, as the angels. Do you have Scripture that warriors are saints?


Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

It is the angels who pour out the plagues and the wrath of God:

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

[Vic]

I think one of the assumptions in these discussions--and I don't mean just here, is that 'we' will be alive when Christ returns, whenever that will be. We each could die tonight....it's really not about 'we'. It's about knowing that we are to be about our Lord's business, so that regardless when 'we' go to be with the Lord, we will be ready. I think it's a great thing that God never gave the time or day or year or hour of those things, because it removes the dogmatic statements anyone can make as to when Christ will return, and the exact timing of everything. It's in God's hands and that's likely why I don't spend a lot of time delving into these things.

[Saltyone]

Quote:I agree with you that the Lord will came back with his saints to the earth, which is a reference to Rev 19, but in Matt 24 and in 1 Thes 4 I believe it clearly says that the Lord will come by Himself as stated above.

Does it say that?

And you did not answer my question. If the saints rise from the dead, when are they made incorruptible? Their spirits are in Heaven, not their bodies.

It’s not the saints that rise, it’s the dead bodies of the saints that rise. So at that time when they are gathered by the angels they will have incorruptible bodies. That’s why in Rev 19, The Lord can come with his saints which are clothed in white linen, they are not invisible.

My question to you is. Do you believe that Matt 24:30-31 represents the rapture or the being caught up (taken away) ??

It seems to me that you are not really looking at what I am saying. You are just going through it. I stated above and showed you that in 1 Thes 4:16 The Lord Himself comes. In Matt 24: 36 The Lord comes to gather his saints. In Rev 19:14 He comes with his saints which are clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

BTW Theses saints are referred to as armies not warriors.

Do you have scripture that says angles are dressed in fine white linen, white and clean?

There are two things that happen at different times.
1 The Lord comes by himself to gather his elect. The key is: he comes to gather his saints and he comes by himself.

2. The Lords comes with his saints to war against the kings of the earth, to slay them and setup His kingdom and rule the nations with an Iron Rod. The key: He comes with his saints which are already in heaven

This is how I believe it to be. Otherwise you have a contradiction in the word of God

---

(02-09-2011 08:13 PM)Vic Wrote:  I think one of the assumptions in these discussions--and I don't mean just here, is that 'we' will be alive when Christ returns, whenever that will be. We each could die tonight....it's really not about 'we'. It's about knowing that we are to be about our Lord's business, so that regardless when 'we' go to be with the Lord, we will be ready. I think it's a great thing that God never gave the time or day or year or hour of those things, because it removes the dogmatic statements anyone can make as to when Christ will return, and the exact timing of everything. It's in God's hands and that's likely why I don't spend a lot of time delving into these things.

I believe too that we should be about our Father in heavens business, but we should also be watchful and know the times. Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always,
God tells us to watch and pray. I see this as a command, not a suggestion. Many people have a false belief of a pretrib rapture. But when the great tribulation comes and they are still here, their faith will wan. They will lose hope, wondering why the Lord has not come back yet. They will not believe in Jesus or the bible anymore because they were told that they would be raptured according the bible and it has not happened. I think it is very important to know what we believe, be watchful and pray that you will preserver until the end.

[sheep wrecked]

(02-14-2011 10:27 AM)Saltyone Wrote:  sheep: And you did not answer my question. If the saints rise from the dead, when are they made incorruptible? Their spirits are in Heaven, not their bodies.

It’s not the saints that rise, it’s the dead bodies of the saints that rise. So at that time when they are gathered by the angels they will have incorruptible bodies. That’s why in Rev 19, The Lord can come with his saints which are clothed in white linen, they are not invisible.

My question to you is. Do you believe that Matt 24:30-31 represents the rapture or the being caught up (taken away) ??

"If the saints rise from the dead" is the same thing as "it's the dead bodies of the saints that rise".

However; 1 Thess 4 says that the dead saints rise to meet Christ in the air first and are then changed in the twinkling of an eye. Do you agree with this?


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Matt 24:30-31 does not say rapture.

Quote:BTW Theses saints are referred to as armies not warriors.

Do you have scripture that says angles are dressed in fine white linen, white and clean?

If armies are not warriors, what are they?

Joh 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.


The OT is clear that the Lord of Hosts, are the angels which do battle for the Lord. For instance:

2Ki 6:11 Therefore the heart of the king of Syria was sore troubled for this thing; and he called his servants, and said unto them, Will ye not shew me which of us is for the king of Israel?
2Ki 6:12 And one of his servants said, None, my lord, O king: but Elisha, the prophet that is in Israel, telleth the king of Israel the words that thou speakest in thy bedchamber.
2Ki 6:13 And he said, Go and spy where he is, that I may send and fetch him. And it was told him, saying, Behold, he is in Dothan.
2Ki 6:14 Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host: and they came by night, and compassed the city about.
2Ki 6:15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?
2Ki 6:16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

Isa 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

and this:

Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
...Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world;and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

>>>>>soooo, how do these apply????

Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,


Can you find any verses or passages in the Bible that say the saints are supposed to do battle for the Lord that would confirm your position that Rev 19 is in reference to the saints, and not the angels?

Do you see anywhere in the NT that as the children of God we are to wage physical battle against the Lord's enemies?

What do you think these texts mean if Jesus has already won the battle over satan - then why would He or His saints have to do battle again?

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Quote:There are two things that happen at different times.
1 The Lord comes by himself to gather his elect. The key is: he comes to gather his saints and he comes by himself.

2. The Lords comes with his saints to war against the kings of the earth, to slay them and setup His kingdom and rule the nations with an Iron Rod. The key: He comes with his saints which are already in heaven

This is how I believe it to be. Otherwise you have a contradiction in the word of God

hmmm. #1 contradicts #2 in your key points.

#1 The key is: he comes to gather his saints and he comes by himself.

#2 The key: He comes with his saints which are already in heaven.

Quote:I believe too that we should be about our Father in heavens business, but we should also be watchful and know the times.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always,

God tells us to watch and pray. I see this as a command, not a suggestion. Many people have a false belief of a pretrib rapture. But when the great tribulation comes and they are still here, their faith will wan. They will lose hope, wondering why the Lord has not come back yet. They will not believe in Jesus or the bible anymore because they were told that they would be raptured according the bible and it has not happened. I think it is very important to know what we believe, be watchful and pray that you will preserver until the end.

I have never really thought of "watch and pray" as meaning to watch for Jesus to come. I believe from the context that we are supposed to be concentrating on how we are living - whether it be for the Lord or not.


Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


Can you find me where Scripture speaks of "The Great Tribulation"? Thanx!

[Saltyone]

Quote:"If the saints rise from the dead" is the same thing as "it's the dead bodies of the saints that rise".

However; 1 Thess 4 says that the dead saints rise to meet Christ in the air first and are then changed in the twinkling of an eye. Do you agree with this?

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Why would we be present with the Lord and then be thrown back down to the earth so we can rise again? Unless you believe as a JW does that when we die we go to the grave and stay there.


The questioned I asked was:: What is the event described in Matt 24:30-31?? Meaning: is this a reference to /is this the same event as 1 Thes 4 :16-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-52.

I guess you did not read again what I showed you. The fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.

Matt 13:40-41 is not the gathering of the elect.

You hit luke 17:29-30 right on the nose. All the verses you have are really confirming what I believe to be true.

Quote:There are two things that happen at different times.
1 The Lord comes by himself to gather his elect. The key is: he comes to gather his saints and he comes by himself.

2. The Lords comes with his saints to war against the kings of the earth, to slay them and setup His kingdom and rule the nations with an Iron Rod. The key: He comes with his saints which are already in heaven

This is how I believe it to be. Otherwise you have a contradiction in the word of God

hmmm. #1 contradicts #2 in your key points.

#1 The key is: he comes to gather his saints and he comes by himself.

#2 The key: He comes with his saints which are already in heaven.

You just proved my point. If this is the same event, which you are saying it is, then it is a contradiction. They only way this can be true is if these are 2 separate events. Just as I tried to say above.

brother sheep wrecked
You are reading, but you are not understanding what you read. Because you are reading to make it fit your beliefs, and not to understand what God is trying to say. When you read, don't think you already know what something means or is telling you before you read it. Read it as if you were reading it for the first time and God will show you many things about his word.

Let me give you an example from my life this past week. I have read Eph 6 many times:
Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath, but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

To me it meant that I was to train up my children in the Lord. To make sure they know the Lord and all his ways. But this past week I read it again and asked the Lord to speak to me, that I may understand what he is trying to say. And this is what the Lord showed me. That I should bring them up or raise them up in such a way that is nourishing, in the nurture of the Lord. And admonish them. Its not a matter of me training them up in the Lord, but how I treat them. The nurture of the Lord. Which is the same way the Lord treats us.

Quote:I believe too that we should be about our Father in heavens business, but we should also be watchful and know the times.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always,

God tells us to watch and pray. I see this as a command, not a suggestion. Many people have a false belief of a pretrib rapture. But when the great tribulation comes and they are still here, their faith will wan. They will lose hope, wondering why the Lord has not come back yet. They will not believe in Jesus or the bible anymore because they were told that they would be raptured according the bible and it has not happened. I think it is very important to know what we believe, be watchful and pray that you will preserver until the end.

I have never really thought of "watch and pray" as meaning to watch for Jesus to come. I believe from the context that we are supposed to be concentrating on how we are living - whether it be for the Lord or not.


Well you don’t have to think of watch and pray to mean watch for Jesus to come. That’s not what it says and that’s not what I said. I said you are to know the times. Watch means to guard, observe, be aware of . If we are aware and know that war and hard times are coming we should pray lest our hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and cares of this life.
You even quoted it down below, but still do not truly understand what it means.

Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always,that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


Can you find me where Scripture speaks of "The Great Tribulation"? Thanx!


At the midpoint of the 70th week, the abomination of desolation
Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

[sheep wrecked]

Quote: sheep:"If the saints rise from the dead" is the same thing as "it's the dead bodies of the saints that rise".

However; 1 Thess 4 says that the dead saints rise to meet Christ in the air first and are then changed in the twinkling of an eye. Do you agree with this?

Quote:Salty one:
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Why would we be present with the Lord and then be thrown back down to the earth so we can rise again? Unless you believe as a JW does that when we die we go to the grave and stay there.

sheep: If I am understanding you, you believe that when we die our bodies go to heaven?

How do understand this text?


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Quote:salty one:
The questioned I asked was:: What is the event described in Matt 24:30-31?? Meaning: is this a reference to /is this the same event as 1 Thes 4 :16-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-52.

sheep: It's all the same event - all three passages.

Quote:saltyone:
I guess you did not read again what I showed you. The fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.

We disagree on this point. Both angels and saints are described the same way. However; there is no Scripture to support that saints are the army of God, but many verses that show the angels are His armies.

The context of Rev 19 does not support saints as the army. Verses 8 and 9 show that the bride is prepared for the wedding feast of the Lamb. If they go out to fight, they are no longer "clean and white" [they are bloody]. If you look at verses 19 and 20 which shows the end of the "battle" - it is not the saints that depose of satan/the beast [enemies of Christ], it is the angels.

Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Quote:saltyone:
Matt 13:40-41 is not the gathering of the elect.

sheep:
It says that it is. It is the end of the world. Finis, done, over, completed.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Here again, the angels are the ones to fight, and sever the just from the unjust and cast them into hell - not the saints. The angels are waging war.

Quote: saltyone: There are two things that happen at different times.
1 The Lord comes by himself to gather his elect. The key is: he comes to gather his saints and he comes by himself.

2. The Lords comes with his saints to war against the kings of the earth, to slay them and setup His kingdom and rule the nations with an Iron Rod. The key: He comes with his saints which are already in heaven

This is how I believe it to be. Otherwise you have a contradiction in the word of God

sheep: Points one and two contradict each other, because you have Jesus coming back twice. Jesus only comes once. He does not "gather the elect", take them to Heaven and then come back with them in tow. The angels gather the elect:

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


Also, the elect cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven until they have incorruptible bodies and that happens at the sound of the trump and the voice of the archangel. Those who accompany the Lord when He returns are the spirits of the dead saints. Their spirits are reunited with their bodies. Then all of us, past and present, are changed in a twinkling of an eye into our incorruptible spiritual bodies so we can enter heaven in bodily form and be forever with the Lord.

Jesus is already ruling the nations with a rod of iron. He already overcame all His enemies, but death - meaning, our bodily death. Spiritually, we never die. No one does, neither saved or unsaved. Either your spirit is with the Lord or is in "waiting" for judgment and the second death. According to the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, it appears as though they are in hell.

Quote:saltyone:
You just proved my point. If this is the same event, which you are saying it is, then it is a contradiction. They only way this can be true is if these are 2 separate events. Just as I tried to say above.

It is the same event, not two separate ones. Matt 24 says nothing about the saints in Heaven not coming with Christ. That is inserted into the passage as if it were so.

Quote: saltyone:
brother sheep wrecked
You are reading, but you are not understanding what you read. Because you are reading to make it fit your beliefs, and not to understand what God is trying to say. When you read, don't think you already know what something means or is telling you before you read it. Read it as if you were reading it for the first time and God will show you many things about his word.

sheep: Again, we will have to agree to disagree. I read the Bible as written. I do not add things that are not there. I see clearly, from the Scriptures, of which I quoted many - that there is one main event. Summarizing, but not specifically in order, Jesus returns and when He does it will be a glorious, unimaginable event. The world will come to an end, the wicked and unbelievers will worship the Lord along with the believers [every tribe and tongue], and then be judged. Those in Christ will be changed bodily - both dead and alive - so that they can live forever with the Lord here on earth where Jesus returns to set up His Kingdom on a new earth and in a new Heaven. It all happens at once. There is no timetable other than how God has set it up and we just do not know. And quite simply put, I don't care how it happens

It is not staged event following a script for us to read. It is a mystery how all will happen. And it will "go down" as God has planned. The Bible only gives us hints as to what will happen in the end and it uses a ton of allegory. I think it is fruitless to figure it all out and to debate. In the end, God will do what He will. I do not think about these things, I read the Bible, not what man teaches. I just want to live for Christ and allow Him preeminance in my life. I belong to Him no matter how it all works out in the end. I leave it in His Hands.

Quote:saltyone:
God tells us to watch and pray. I see this as a command, not a suggestion. Many people have a false belief of a pretrib rapture. But when the great tribulation comes and they are still here, their faith will wan. They will lose hope, wondering why the Lord has not come back yet. They will not believe in Jesus or the bible anymore because they were told that they would be raptured according the bible and it has not happened. I think it is very important to know what we believe, be watchful and pray that you will preserver until the end.

The reason people loose hope is because they try to figure out how it's all going to happen when Jesus returns.

We don't have to watch and pray for Christ to come. He IS coming, and when He does, the world will come to a screeching halt and every eye will see Him. No one will miss His return.

Quote:sheep:
I have never really thought of "watch and pray" as meaning to watch for Jesus to come. I believe from the context that we are supposed to be concentrating on how we are living - whether it be for the Lord or not.

Quote:saltyone:
Well you don’t have to think of watch and pray to mean watch for Jesus to come. That’s not what it says and that’s not what I said. I said you are to know the times. Watch means to guard, observe, be aware of . If we are aware and know that war and hard times are coming we should pray lest our hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and cares of this life.
You even quoted it down below, but still do not truly understand what it means.

The text states that we are watch and pray that we fall not.

There have been wars, rumors of war, tribulation, hard times, death, disease, poverty and abuse of every kind since Genesis. People can try and make the Bible "fit" into your own box, but so have many others over the last 2,000. Every generation believed they were the last. And people from almost every generation have "set the date". Thinking on such things takes one's focus off the Lord.

Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always,that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Quote:sheep:
Can you find me where Scripture speaks of "The Great Tribulation"? Thanx!

Quote:saltyone:
At the midpoint of the 70th week, the abomination of desolation

Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

sheep: It does not say "The Great Tribulation". It says, "great tribulation". Do you not think that when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD and millions of Jews were slain and thousand fled for their lives that they did not experience "great tribulation"? Did Jesus not warn us that daily we would have tribulation? Do you not think that the millions of Christians who have been murdered for the last 2,000+ have not suffered "great tribulation"? Christians today in 3rd world countries, China, etc? Tribulation is what Christians should expect.

The 70 weeks have long been fulfilled. The daily sacrifice was taken away through Christ. The abomination of desolation of Daniel 12 was the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, which is part of the prophecy of Christ in Matt 24 and Luke 17 as well.