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Will Jesus Enter the Eastern Gate For the First Time or, Again?
04-15-2010, 03:38 PM
Post: #11
RE: Will Jesus Enter the Eastern Gate For the First Time or, Again?
That has nothing to do with Jesus returning to Jerusalem. He appeared to His disciples at certain times - He did not walk the streets of Jerusalem or make a grand entrance. You are confusing His glorified body with reigning or coming in glory to the world. The whole world will see Him return, not just Jerusalem. In other words, He is not going to enter Jerusalem to rule in the age the come - it is corrupt. Jesus comes with the New Jerusalem that is Holy, from Heaven.
[/quote]


I am not confusing anything. The question was:

In Revelation, God calls Jerusalem, Sodom and Egypt because it is so spiritually corrupted. The question is, will Jesus, who is in His glorified body, enter what is known as Jerusalem presently, which is considered unclean, when He returns?

anyone reading the my posts can read clearly what I stated:

I understand your reference to the second coming. When he returns to rule and reign it will be in the New Jerusalem. However, upon his resurrection after his ascenscion to his father (John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.) and his subsequent return and appearing to the disciples, he had already acquired his glorified body. He remained and appeared unto many, until we read in Acts of his return to the father. Therefore, he in his glorified body was in Jerusalem. So understanding that, there really is no reason as to why he wouldn't/couldn't enter Jerusalem on his return. He is just going to rule and reign in the New Jerusalem. I have not read anything to the contrary to that. I may have missed the scripture and verse that specifically states that he cannot enter Jerusalem as it is today in deference to how it was back then.

I never said that he would return to Jerusalem. I just pointed out the fact that he had already been in Jerusalem with his new body when appearing to the disciples. So therefore there would be nothing defiling about him going to Jerusalem today if he returned.

My contention is that sin is sin and corruption is corruption. A person is a thief if he steals a candy bar or a million dollars. Jerusalem of old is/was not the New Jerusalem of Revelation. Therefore it was corrupt then. It remains corrupt now. He appeared in his new body in Jerusalem to his disciples then and IF he chose to do it now he could. The scriptures just say that he will return to the mount of olives.

Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
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04-15-2010, 06:19 PM
Post: #12
RE: Will Jesus Enter the Eastern Gate For the First Time or, Again?
(04-15-2010 03:38 PM)carl39 Wrote:  I never said that he would return to Jerusalem. I just pointed out the fact that he had already been in Jerusalem with his new body when appearing to the disciples. So therefore there would be nothing defiling about him going to Jerusalem today if he returned.


Jesus will not return to Jerusalem because it is a corrupt city. It does not matter if He was there in 33 AD. We are not speaking of His 40 days of post-resurrection appearances, but when He returns. He will not enter and REIGN in a corrupt city. He will reign in the New Jerusalem. According to Peter, the earth and everything it in will be burned up, so personally I don't think it will even exist when Jesus returns which makes our "discussion" a moot point Biggrin
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05-31-2010, 12:30 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2010 01:03 PM by jazzy.)
Post: #13
RE: Will Jesus Enter the Eastern Gate For the First Time or, Again?
(03-10-2010 10:28 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  In Revelation, God calls Jerusalem, Sodom and Egypt because it is so spiritually corrupted. The question is, will Jesus, who is in His glorified body, enter what is known as Jerusalem presently, which is considered unclean, when He returns?

In Zechariah 14:2 in part reads:

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;

This couldn't have been the destruction in 70 A.D. since Rome was the only nation that came aginst Jerusalem, and the passage clearly states nation'S. (v.4) is believed to be when Jesus returns, if He enters Jerusalem at His second coming it may only be to destroy it.

Paul said that God has concluded all Israel in unbelief. Rom.11:32 When they as a nation refused to accept Jesus as their Messiah and did not keep His covenant, I have to wonder just what position the Jews do have anymore.
[quote='sheep wrecked' pid='5742' dateline='1271279467']

[quote='carl39' pid='5732' dateline='1271252193']

Just wondering why Jerusalem presently would be considered unclean/more unclean than it was at the time of his life there?

Hi carl39,

It may have to do with the fact that God doesn't hold Jerusalem in high esteem because everything that was anti-Christ was centered there in the 1st century. The religious faction went to the Romans and stirred them up by telling them that Jesus was against Rome and when Rome finally arrested Jesus (along witht the religious faction) they finally admitted the reason they wanted Him arrested was that He had blasphemed. Rome would never have gotten involved if they thought it was for religous purposes that the Jews wanted Jesus arrested. The Jews had lost the right to put anyone to death so they had to find a way around it and get Rome involved

At one time the Temple in Jerusalem was God's home but in the Jewish writings they believe that God's presence left the Temple and Jerusalem before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and in essence left it to whoever wanted to destroy it.

Haggai was told to encourage Zerubbabel by Promising him: "I will fill this house with Glory" (Haggai 2:7). Talmud states that "forty years before the Temple was destroyed" (70 A.D minus "forty" equals 30 A.D.!) that is, immediately following Christ's Crucifixion, "strange signs" in the Temple indicated that God's Presence was going to depart.

Hope this helped. Smile
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05-31-2010, 08:26 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2010 08:34 PM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #14
RE: Will Jesus Enter the Eastern Gate For the First Time or, Again?
(05-31-2010 12:30 PM)jazzy Wrote:  It may have to do with the fact that God doesn't hold Jerusalem in high esteem because everything that was anti-Christ was centered there in the 1st century. The religious faction went to the Romans and stirred them up by telling them that Jesus was against Rome and when Rome finally arrested Jesus (along witht the religious faction) they finally admitted the reason they wanted Him arrested was that He had blasphemed. Rome would never have gotten involved if they thought it was for religous purposes that the Jews wanted Jesus arrested. The Jews had lost the right to put anyone to death so they had to find a way around it and get Rome involved

Hi jazzy!

I was reading thru your response and something hit me as kind of curious. Let me know what you think!

If the Jews had lost the right to put anyone to death then I wonder about the time they tried to kill Jesus by pushing Him off the cliff and then later when they picked up stones to kill Him. Oh! and then there is Stephen who was stoned to death and Paul who was left for dead after they stoned Him.
10294Thinking2



Quote:At one time the Temple in Jerusalem was God's home but in the Jewish writings they believe that God's presence left the Temple and Jerusalem before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and in essence left it to whoever wanted to destroy it.

Haggai was told to encourage Zerubbabel by Promising him: "I will fill this house with Glory" (Haggai 2:7). Talmud states that "forty years before the Temple was destroyed" (70 A.D minus "forty" equals 30 A.D.!) that is, immediately following Christ's Crucifixion, "strange signs" in the Temple indicated that God's Presence was going to depart.

Hope this helped. Smile

I am having a bit of difficulty with understanding exactly what you mean. We know that God's presence left the Temple with the disappearance of the Ark Of the Covenant. But, I believe that God honored the righteous priests Like Zechariah [John the Baptist's father] until Christ. We know that the priesthood was corrupted since the Maccabean/Hasmodean reign.

I am not sure about how the Talmud would interpret that Haggai would refer to the fulfillment of Christ, as the Talmud was not written until after 200CE, and of course we understand that it is not really about Jesus, so I wonder about using it to define NT understanding? Can you clarify a bit more?
14949
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05-31-2010, 08:35 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2010 08:37 PM by Rose of Shushan.)
Post: #15
RE: Will Jesus Enter the Eastern Gate For the First Time or, Again?
Quote:In Zechariah 14:2 in part reads:

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;

This couldn't have been the destruction in 70 A.D. since Rome was the only nation that came aginst Jerusalem, and the passage clearly states nation'S. (v.4) is believed to be when Jesus returns, if He enters Jerusalem at His second coming it may only be to destroy it.

The verse in Zechariah reads

Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

You referred to the passage stating nations not nation.Well the hebrew word is Hagoyim.

It seens hagoyim can mean nation or nations.Consider the following verse

Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
Seems to me the only nation that was cast out were the caananites.It certainly was not the whole world.In 4 verses later that same nation is referred to in the singular as goy

Lev 18:28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
yet in Deut 4:38 again it refers to it as goyim

Deu 4:38 To drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou art, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance, as it is this day.

Other verses which have hagoyim which is translated as nation include

Exo 34:10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.

What I see though from the whole of the Zechariah verse is that it was fulfilled AD70 to AD135.A parallel verse which I correlate with the events in that time period is

Deu 28:49 The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;
Deu 28:50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:
Deu 28:51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.
Deu 28:52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
Deu 28:53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:
Deu 28:54 So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:
Deu 28:55 So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.
Deu 28:56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,
Deu 28:57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.
Deu 28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;



In AD 70 the people were taken captive into the nations by the Romans.The city was taken,the women raped.Josephus records that the famine and hunger was so bad that some mothers even cooked and ate their children.
The events that occured,in my opinion,reflect what the prophets foretold.So if the events already occurred why should we expect them to occur again? I see the prophets foretell events but once they happen noone ever expects for history to then totally repeat itself.
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05-31-2010, 08:42 PM
Post: #16
RE: Will Jesus Enter the Eastern Gate For the First Time or, Again?
Jazzy, I am a little surprised at your reference and use of the Talmud as a source for Christian understanding. Thinking2

MY impression of your introduction was that "Jewish roots" was of interest and something you were just getting into and researching. However, your question about the seder rabbah, and now the use of the Talmud, which incidentally would not in any way refer to Christ with regard to this prophecy, as those who wrote it rejected Jesus Christ as Messiah, so what that has to do with a Christian understanding of these things? 89

If one rejects Christ, all the prophecies and understandings concerning Him throughout Scripture, as being fulfilled are viewed as not fulfilled and often with totally different understanding of what they indeed mean. Th_ththink

Can you perhaps explain your background concerning your knowledge of the talmud and also HR/Messianic things? You sound like someone who has been involved in some way.
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Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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05-31-2010, 09:19 PM
Post: #17
RE: Will Jesus Enter the Eastern Gate For the First Time or, Again?
Quote:Paul said that God has concluded all Israel in unbelief. Rom.11:32 When they as a nation refused to accept Jesus as their Messiah and did not keep His covenant, I have to wonder just what position the Jews do have anymore.

I dont see that the Romans verse you quoted is referring to Israel but rather to both jew and gentile.Ill paste the verse with the preceding two verses so we get context.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


In verse 30 its the gentiles not believing and in 31 its the jews.So both jew and gentile have been guilty of unbelief and both benefit from God's mercy.

As to the position that jews have today. Well to me it seems clear from the NT that being jewish itself will not save you.We all jew and gentile need to enter into the New Covenant and believe in Jesus Christ for salvation.
It is encouraging that so may jews now believe in their Messiah and are also more vocal about it.
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05-31-2010, 11:42 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2010 11:50 PM by jazzy.)
Post: #18
RE: Will Jesus Enter the Eastern Gate For the First Time or, Again?
[quote='sheep wrecked' pid='5869' dateline='1275351964']

Hi jazzy!

[quote]I was reading thru your response and something hit me as kind of curious. Let me know what you think!

If the Jews had lost the right to put anyone to death then I wonder about the time they tried to kill Jesus by pushing Him off the cliff and then later when they picked up stones to kill Him. Oh! and then there is Stephen who was stoned to death and Paul who was left for dead after they stoned Him.
10294Thinking2[/quote]

Hi Sheep Wrecked,

Jewish citizens were under the authority of the Jewish court system (the Sanhedrin), yet all rulings for the death penalty were sent to the Roman government. So it would seem that the Jews weren't following the guidelines that Rome had set down.



[quote]At one time the Temple in Jerusalem was God's home but in the Jewish writings they believe that God's presence left the Temple and Jerusalem before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and in essence left it to whoever wanted to destroy it.

Haggai was told to encourage Zerubbabel by Promising him: "I will fill this house with Glory" (Haggai 2:7). Talmud states that "forty years before the Temple was destroyed" (70 A.D minus "forty" equals 30 A.D.!) that is, immediately following Christ's Crucifixion, "strange signs" in the Temple indicated that God's Presence was going to depart.

Hope this helped. Smile
[/quote]

[quote][color=#006400][b]I am having a bit of difficulty with understanding exactly what you mean. We know that God's presence left the Temple with the disappearance of the Ark Of the Covenant. [/quote]

[b]We know from Ezekiel 10:18 that God's presence left the first temple which is why Nebuchadnezzar's men were able in 586 B.C. to destroy it. Technically speaking, God didn't reside in the Ark of the Covenant. His presence was in the second temple because Jesus said: "And whosoever shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. Only God could truly reside in the temple Matt.23:21
[/b]

[quote]But, I believe that God honored the righteous priests Like Zechariah [John the Baptist's father] until Christ. We know that the priesthood was corrupted since the Maccabean/Hasmodean reign.

I am not sure about how the Talmud would interpret that Haggai would refer to the fulfillment of Christ, as the Talmud was not written until after 200CE, and of course we understand that it is not really about Jesus, so I wonder about using it to define NT understanding? Can you clarify a bit more?[/quote] [/b]
14949

I don't understand why you mentioned Zechariah, maybe you could clarify that for me. Like I stated:

(70 A.D minus "forty" equals 30 A.D.!) that is, immediately following Christ's Crucifixion.

That they couldn't put two and two together? Josephus also records the event.
Smile
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06-01-2010, 11:54 AM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2010 12:44 PM by jazzy.)
Post: #19
RE: Will Jesus Enter the Eastern Gate For the First Time or, Again?
[quote='Rose of Shushan' pid='5870' dateline='1275352548']

In AD 70 the people were taken captive into the nations by the Romans.The city was taken,the women raped.Josephus records that the famine and hunger was so bad that some mothers even cooked and ate their children.
The events that occured,in my opinion,reflect what the prophets foretold.So if the events already occurred why should we expect them to occur again? I see the prophets foretell events but once they happen noone ever expects for history to then totally repeat itself.

[/quote]

4642 Rose 7838

Zechariah 14:1........Behold, the day of the LORD cometh,

What does the Day of the Lord mean to you?

[quote='Vic' pid='5871' dateline='1275352963']
[quote]Jazzy, I am a little surprised at your reference and use of the Talmud as a source for Christian understanding. Thinking2

MY impression of your introduction was that "Jewish roots" was of interest and something you were just getting into and researching. However, your question about the seder rabbah, and now the use of the Talmud, which incidentally would not in any way refer to Christ with regard to this prophecy, as those who wrote it rejected Jesus Christ as Messiah, so what that has to do with a Christian understanding of these things? 89[/quote]

4642 Vic 10294

I thought it was interesting that (according to their own writings) and as I pointed out to sheepwreck the Jews believed that their probelms started 40 years before the temple was destroyed and (70 A.D minus "forty" equals 30 A.D.!) that is, immediately following Christ's Crucifixion, "strange signs" in the Temple indicated that God's Presence was going to depart.

I believe they were able to put two and two together but as it was always said of them they were stiff necked and uncircumcised of heart and refused to admit what they had done.

When I asked you in a PM if you had any information on the Sedar Olam Rabbah it was only to share info I had about it from a book by Floyd Nolen Jones "The Chronology of the Old Testament", and how the Jews have forged a chronology that would make it appear that Simon Bar Kokhba was really the Jewish Messiah.

[quote]If one rejects Christ, all the prophecies and understandings concerning Him throughout Scripture, as being fulfilled are viewed as not fulfilled and often with totally different understanding of what they indeed mean. Th_ththink Can you perhaps explain your background concerning your knowledge of the talmud and also HR/Messianic things? You sound like someone who has been involved in some way.
10294
[/quote]

I have no knowledge of the Talmud except for what I have been reading in Mr. Reilands book "The Third Temple and Jesus" and 6838 I have never been involved with the HR/Messianic movements!
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06-01-2010, 02:29 PM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2010 02:32 PM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #20
RE: Will Jesus Enter the Eastern Gate For the First Time or, Again?
(05-31-2010 11:42 PM)jazzy Wrote:  Hi Sheep Wrecked,

Jewish citizens were under the authority of the Jewish court system (the Sanhedrin), yet all rulings for the death penalty were sent to the Roman government. So it would seem that the Jews weren't following the guidelines that Rome had set down.

Perhaps you could provide a source for "Roman guidelines" and that Rome had to give permission for the death penalty. Thanx. [The Talmud is not a credible source for this info].

The odd thing is that the NT says nothing of this and stonings were immediately considered when blasphemy was viewed to have occured. And then of course there was the adulterous woman. None of the examples of ensuing stonings had the time to pursue permission from Rome, it was Jewish Law. Personally, as much as the Romans hated the Jews I really don't think they cared if they were stoning each other Stirthepot

The Sanhedrin was the Jewish court - more for civil than religious decisions. They were scared of the people which is why they came up with the sedition charges against Jesus so Rome would do their dirty work for them and they would not suffer the wrath of the people who loved Jesus. They wanted Jesus out of the way as long as it was done so their hands were "clean".


Quote:sheep:
But, I believe that God honored the righteous priests Like Zechariah [John the Baptist's father] until Christ. We know that the priesthood was corrupted since the Maccabean/Hasmodean reign.


jazzy:I don't understand why you mentioned Zechariah, maybe you could clarify that for me.

Because the priesthood was corrupted, the Temple was built by the desires of man, not the command of God. The second Temple was built by Herod, a cursed Edomite and put in office by Rome. Herod wanted a Temple built that would bring him glory and thereby worshiped. The High Priest had also been put in office by Rome for political reasons.

God's Presence dwelt in the Ark of the Covenant. When the Ark disappeared, God's presence was no longer with the nation of Israel because the covenant was broken. However; God was faithful to those righteous under the conditions of the old covenant until Jesus died and so Zecharias was considered righteous and entered the Holy of Holies an and saw the angel. Jesus said the Temple would be destroyed and when He died the veil was rent in two. It was not the Temple of the Lord, it was Herod's Temple.




Quote:Like I stated:

(70 A.D minus "forty" equals 30 A.D.!) that is, immediately following Christ's Crucifixion.

That they couldn't put two and two together? Josephus also records the event. Smile


What event are you referring to? The Talmud is an interpretation of historical events, it is not factual and often not accurate. In other words, the Talmud is not the plumbline for "signs" concerning the Temple in the first century. The Presence of God left the Temple centuries before when the Ark disappeared, so there were no warning signs that His Presence would leave in the first century - that would be myth.
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