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What's it mean?
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04-08-2010, 12:06 PM
(This post was last modified: 04-08-2010 12:08 PM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #41
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RE: What's it mean?
(04-08-2010 06:42 AM)Goldenmean Wrote: Mary: "So, the Pharisee's who rejected Christ, started the Roman Catholic religion, by pretending to accept him, and tricked many people into a false Christianity, which is really Paganism and its all a conspiracy of the Pharisees over the last few thousand years?" Other than making my eyes go glassy with information overload aka lots of conjecture and opinion and "interpretation", I am wondering if you enjoy Dan Brown's epic and contrived novels as well? 
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04-08-2010, 02:58 PM
(This post was last modified: 04-08-2010 03:09 PM by a pilgrim.)
Post: #42
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RE: What's it mean?
(04-08-2010 12:06 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: Other than making my eyes go glassy with information overload aka lots of conjecture and opinion and "interpretation", I am wondering if you enjoy Dan Brown's epic and contrived novels as well? Wow, I thought I was the only one getting wierded out by all this. Let's go back to the Times of the Gentiles...from scripture. Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Luk 21:25 ¶ And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. By the context of the above scripture this is a desciption of end times events. Jeruslem is still under Gentile influence via the Palestinians, and other nations that exert undue unfluence on Israel. This will not change, and SURELY, under the rule of antichrist. On a different note, this must not be confused with the passage about the fullness of the Gentiles. This, by context of Rom. 11 is a reference to the infolding of all the Gentiles during the church age up until the call out. I believe this propehcy in Zechariah is a reference to "these Gentiles." Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David [shall be] as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. So far, the nations that hate Israel only do so diplomatically, and through the cowardly acts of the hezballah and Palestinians, but then it will be all out war. Of course, as they say, we've read the end of the book and we know who wins! |
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04-08-2010, 04:00 PM
(This post was last modified: 04-08-2010 04:03 PM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #43
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RE: What's it mean?
(04-08-2010 02:58 PM)a pilgrim Wrote: Wow, I thought I was the only one getting wierded out by all this. Let's go back to the Times of the Gentiles...from scripture. I was under the impression that Luke 21:24 was fulfilled in 70 AD. At that point, Israel was massacred and the rest fled for their lives. I don't see that Jerusalem from that point onward has any significance in prophecy. She is no different than any other large city that is seen as "religious". Jerusalem is a secular city and just like America has its gay parades and other morality issues. John stated that the anti-christ is already here, and has been since Jesus died. I do not see this as a single person, but an anti-christ spirituality. Just my  Quote:On a different note, this must not be confused with the passage about the fullness of the Gentiles. This, by context of Rom. 11 is a reference to the infolding of all the Gentiles during the church age up until the call out. What do you mean by "call out"? I am not familiar with that  Quote:I believe this propehcy in Zechariah is a reference to "these Gentiles." I probably have a different perspective, but to me this is a spiritual reality, not a physical one. The "House of David" is Jesus Christ. All who reject Him are condemned. John 3:16-18 Quote:So far, the nations that hate Israel only do so diplomatically, and through the cowardly acts of the hezballah and Palestinians, but then it will be all out war. Of course, as they say, we've read the end of the book and we know who wins! It is my opinion that what happens in Jerusalem is neither here nor there is relation to prophecy any more. As Rev shows us, there is a new Jerusalem that is waiting to be brought down from Heaven. The old Jerusalem has no more spiritual significance other than to represent sin. Jesus died there for sin which makes all prophecy concerning Him fulfilled. The end of physical Jerusalem in a spiritual sense, took place in 70 AD with its destruction, which fulfilled the "desolation of Jerusalem" prophecies. Again, this is how I view it based on what I believe the Scriptures say. I am hoping by your "we've read the end of the book and we know who wins" statement, that you are not referring to the Jews winning? |
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04-08-2010, 07:50 PM
Post: #44
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RE: What's it mean?
Quote:Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. I too see as the above verses having happened in AD70 In the chapters and verses before LUk 21, Jesus is on His way to Jerusalem before His death and He makes a lot of references to Israel and its leaders.One of these is very significant. Luk 20:9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time. Luk 20:10 And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty. Luk 20:11 And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty. Luk 20:12 And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out. Luk 20:13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him. Luk 20:14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours. Luk 20:15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them? Luk 20:16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid. Jesus warns a lot on the destruction and vengeance that would come upon those who were rejecting His message. Luk 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, Luk 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. We know that the great distress to befall the land and the people happened AD70 and in 135 when they were led captive into all the nations.We also know that those who took heed of Jesus warning and fled at the very beginning escaped,those who waited, waited too long and the armies that surrounded Jerusalem eventually prevented escape from the city. I cannot thus believe that the above refers to end time prophecy since it has already been fulfilled.The great distress and wrath in verse 23 happened already as did the falling to the sword and being led away captive. The spread of the Gospel also spread into the nations and tying that in with what Jesus said about giving the Kingdom to a nation that would bear fruit,I think the times of the Gentiles refer to that time when the Kingdom of God is preached by and to the nations. |
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04-20-2010, 11:47 AM
Post: #45
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RE: What's it mean?
This passage is both:
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. I would think this was a reference to 70 A.D. also. The following, though, has the apocalyptic elements: Luk 21:25 ¶ And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. Do we have historic record of the sun, moon, and stars being shaken? |
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04-20-2010, 11:57 AM
Post: #46
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RE: What's it mean?
Pilgrim we do have records in Josephus of various signs in the sky and things that happened that were out of the ordinary prior to the destruction of the Temple but I will have to look them up .
Have to rush out now but will try and find them ove the next couple of days. |
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04-20-2010, 05:22 PM
Post: #47
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RE: What's it mean?
Following on from my last post this is from Josephus War of the Jews Book 6 Chapter 5
3. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star (20) resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, (21) [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner (22) [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, (23) began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost. |
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06-04-2010, 09:15 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-04-2010 09:24 PM by jazzy.)
Post: #48
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Nebuchadnezzar's Dream
(05-17-2009 02:42 PM)Vic Wrote: This is part of the passage relating to the time of the Gentiles being fulfilled. I think nothing exemplifies the gentile nations better than the dream of Nebuchadnezzar. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. Daniel 2:35 Since the four kingdoms typified by this "colossus" are literal kingdoms, it would make sense that the "stone that smote the image" is a kingdom. Jesus is referred to as a stone: Jesus said unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The Stone Which The Builders Rejected, The Same Is Become The Head Of The Corner: This Is The Lord's Doing, And It Is Marvelous In Our Eyes? Therefore I say unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.................... And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. Matt.21:42-43 The "Stone Kingdom" is the "Millenial Kingdom of Christ" and the the "colossus," or the "Times of the Gentiles" typified by it cannot come to an end until the "revelation of Jesus at His Second Coming." 
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07-10-2010, 01:44 AM
Post: #49
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RE: End of the Times of the Gentiles
One thing that is so important to remember and be mindful of--is that many prophecies have multiple fulfillments.
For example, the time period of 3 and 1/2 years is a prophetic period that repeats in Biblical history and future prophecy. There was a 3 and 1/2 year time period during the work of the prophet Elijah, in which there was no dew nor rain, John the Baptist had a 3 and 1/2 year ministry, the Messiah's ministry here on earth was 3 and 1/2 years, John, the Revelator, speaks of the woman fleeing into the wilderness for 1260 days, that is 3 and 1/2 years, the beast has power for that same time period that God's people flee to the wilderness, spoken of as 42 months, which is 3 and 1/2 years again. Likewise, Daniel's prophetic period of 2300 days has more than one fulfillment, beginning with the going forth of the commandiment to "restore and build Jerusalem" in 457 BCE in this first fulfillment. The "times of the Jews" ended at the culmination of the first 70 weeks (prophetic time-a day for a year in this fulfillment) of this 2300 day period. As this period of 2300 days pointed to the time of the cleansing of the sanctuary, it must end on a Day of Atonement as that was the day that the sanctuary was cleansed. Think about this-- On Friday, June 27, 1980, a commandment to "restore and build" Jerusalem "went forth" to the entire world via Reuters International News Agency and was picked up the same day by many other news services and was broadcast all day. 2300 days later,the count ended on a Day of Atonement, October 13, 1986, a Sabbatical year, one year before the Biblical Jubile. Continuing the parallel, 70 weeks into the beginning of this period of 2300 days, brings us to October 29, 1981. On that day, amateur archeologist, Tom Crotser, from Winfield, Kansas, found, but did not disturb, the sacred Ark of the Covenant containing the ten commandments. Tom Crotser, led by the information in 2 Maccabees 2 searched for the Ark on Mt. Pisgah, where Moses went up to see the inheritance of God. 2 Maccabees 2:4-8 “4 It was also contained in the in the same writing (of Jeremiah) ,how the prophet (Jeremiah), being warned by God, commanded that tabernacle and the ark should accompany him, till he come forth to the mountain where Moses went up and saw the inheritance of God. 5 And when Jeremiah came thither he found a hollow cave: and he carried in thither the tabernacle and the ark and the altar of incense and so stopped the door. 6 Then some of them that followed him came up to mark the place: but they could not find it. 7 And when Jeremiah perceived it, he blamed them, saying: The place shall be unknown till God gather together the congregation of the people and receive them to mercy. 8 And then the Lord will shew these things : and the majesty of the Lord shall appear and there shall be a cloud, as it was also shewed to Moses, and he shewed it when Solomon prayed that the place might be sanctified to the great God.” 2 Maccabees 2:4-8[i][b] With his three companions, Tom camped near this peak when during the night, he was given a dream. In the dream he could see through the top of the mountain and was shown the location of the Ark of the Covenant. He woke and informed his three companions of what God had just shown him. They then all immediately went to the spot pointed out in the dream and went to work. After some difficult digging within the tombs, through several passages identified in the dream, they finally broke through into the last room and found the Ark of the Covenant just as the dream had showed. They took some pictures but did not touch or disturb anything they found. There is quite a story behind this discovery, which many readers may wish to investigate further, as we will not relate all the details here. The government of Jordan resealed the entrance to these tombs and posted guards to prevent any further investigation of the site. This event marks the end of the seventy weeks which were allotted to the Gentile churches. (The laodicean Church was spewed out) “To finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness...” Daniel 9:24. Did this fulfillment of the 2300 days include one fulfillment of the "end of the times of the Gentiles"??? In Revelation, John writes of the future final judgment in which the people of God are first to be judged, and the court that is without was given unto the Gentiles and the Holy City they would tread underfoot for 42 months--3 and 1/2 years. This would indicate a still future fulfillment of the "times of the Gentiles" and, consequently, the surrounding prophecies, as well. (See Revelation 11:1,2) |
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07-10-2010, 02:21 PM
Post: #50
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RE: What's it mean?
(05-17-2009 02:42 PM)Vic Wrote: This is part of the passage relating to the time of the Gentiles being fulfilled. The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. by Titus, the Roman, is the first fulfillment of this prophecy. In this first fulfillment, we see Jerusalem "trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled". In the law entitled, "Basic Law-Jerusalem Capitol of Israel" of 1980, promoted by Guela Kohen, provision was made for the capitol of Israel to be moved from Tel-aviv to Jerusalem. This law contained all the provisions to once again restore Jerusalem, complete and united, as the capitol of Israel. This fulfilled the requirement of the prophecy of the Messiah. The first fulfillment of this prophecy was completed by this "commandment to restore and build Jerusalem" (Daniel 9:25). When did the movement begin, that focused on the Hebrew roots of Christianity? Did it not begin in the 1980s? The last fulfillment of this prophecy will, no doubt, end at the end of time when the Gentiles are given 42 months, just before the Messiah sets up His millennial reign of 1000 years. But in the intervening time between these two fulfillments, attention will, once again, focus "on the restoration of all things, spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began" Acts 3:19. |
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