What's it mean?

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:The "Stone Kingdom" is the "Millenial Kingdom of Christ" and the the "colossus," or the "Times of the Gentiles" typified by it cannot come to an end until the "revelation of Jesus at His Second Coming."

Scripture itself tells us that this Kingdom that is set up is eternal

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

So how can it be millennial? Many other Scriptures also confirm that the Kingdom lasts for ever and not just 1000 years.But I will stick to those from the book of Daniel since we awere referring to his verse in the first place.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:In the law entitled, "Basic Law-Jerusalem Capitol of Israel" of 1980, promoted by Guela Kohen, provision was made for the capitol of Israel to be moved from Tel-aviv to Jerusalem. This law contained all the provisions to once again restore Jerusalem, complete and united, as the capitol of Israel. This fulfilled the requirement of the prophecy of the Messiah. The first fulfillment of this prophecy was completed by this "commandment to restore and build Jerusalem" (Daniel 9:25).

I am having trouble understanding the above paragraph and what your points are exactly.
You wrote that the law that you quoted as having made provision for the capital of Israel to be moved from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem fulfilled the requirement of the prophecy of the Messiah.Which requirement would that be? I am not understanding you at all.
And what does the verse from Daniel have to do with the verses from Luke?
The commandment to rebuild and restore Jeruslaem was given by Cyrus was it not?

Ezr 1:1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
Ezr 1:2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
Ezr 1:3 Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.
Some argue that the decree came later as in
Ezr 7:11 Now this is the copy of the letter that the king Artaxerxes gave unto Ezra the priest, the scribe, even a scribe of the words of the commandments of the LORD, and of his statutes to Israel.
Ezr 7:12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.
Ezr 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

Regardless of which date we choose the prophecy had relevance over 2000 years ago and then was fulfilled.
The Jerusalem today of the Middle East is no longer relevant to us as Christians because that Old Jerusalem was a shadow of thereal heavenly Jerusalem that we as believers are promised.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

In Galatians we see where Paul contrasts the earthy Jerusalem with the heavenly

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Revelation also calls earthly Jerusalem Sodom

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Quote:When did the movement begin, that focused on the Hebrew roots of Christianity? Did it not begin in the 1980s?

I don't understand what you mean by this?

Quote:The last fulfillment of this prophecy will, no doubt, end at the end of time when the Gentiles are given 42 months, just before the Messiah sets up His millennial reign of 1000 years.

But in the intervening time between these two fulfillments, attention will, once again, focus "on the restoration of all things, spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began" Acts 3:19.

You quoted acts 3:21 not 3:19 but anyway the restitution of all things seems to me to occur either at Jesus return or may be ongoing. The thayers definition for the word restoration there is

G605
ἀποκατάστασις
apokatastasis
Thayer Definition:
1) restoration
1a) of a true theocracy
1b) of the perfect state before the fall
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G600
Citing in TDNT: 1:389, 65

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Whether we take the time of restoration to be a total restoration in the future or an ongoing one at present, what is clear that Jesus Christ is at the centre of it not a secular state of Israel that rejects Jesus Christ.

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:One thing that is so important to remember and be mindful of--is that many prophecies have multiple fulfillments.

I have heard this statement before
Would you be able to show examples from Scripture of where a prophecy given by God has been fulfilled twice but at different times.
Once something has been fulfilled and come to pass, then I cannot understand how people can say it will come to pass again.

Quote:For example, the time period of 3 and 1/2 years is a prophetic period that repeats in Biblical history and future prophecy. There was a 3 and 1/2 year time period during the work of the prophet Elijah, in which there was no dew nor rain, John the Baptist had a 3 and 1/2 year ministry, the Messiah's ministry here on earth was 3 and 1/2 years, John, the Revelator, speaks of the woman fleeing into the wilderness for 1260 days, that is 3 and 1/2 years, the beast has power for that same time period that God's people flee to the wilderness, spoken of as 42 months, which is 3 and 1/2 years again.

All those 3 and a half year periods are different things not based on one prophecy that then repeats. We don't really know how long the ministries of Jesus and John the Baptist were for sure.
What the above have in common is that even if they occurred in 3 and a half year periods they are not multiple fulfillments but coincidences that they are all three and a half years.
So some things in Scripture occur in times of 3 and a half years.How is it double fulfilment that Elijah shut up rain for 3 and a half years and that Messiah's ministry was 3 and a half years? What prophecies are being fulfilled that cover those two and the other scenarios simultaneously that you mentioned in the above paragraph?

Quote:Likewise, Daniel's prophetic period of 2300 days has more than one fulfillment, beginning with the going forth of the commandiment to "restore and build Jerusalem" in 457 BCE in this first fulfillment. The "times of the Jews" ended at the culmination of the first 70 weeks (prophetic time-a day for a year in this fulfillment) of this 2300 day period. As this period of 2300 days pointed to the time of the cleansing of the sanctuary, it must end on a Day of Atonement as that was the day that the sanctuary was cleansed.

If Daniel's period of 2300 days was fulfilled by the coming of Christ then how can it be fulfilled once again? Are we all to go back in time and scenarios repeat?That is impossible. The sanctuary was already cleansed by Jesus so there is no future Day of Atonement as the atonement that happened 2000 years ago does not need to be repeated.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.



Most worryingly you then say further down

Quote:The government of Jordan resealed the entrance to these tombs and posted guards to prevent any further investigation of the site. This event marks the end of the seventy weeks which were allotted to the Gentile churches. (The laodicean Church was spewed out)
“To finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness...” Daniel 9:24.

But JOHNN Jesus already fulfilled that 2000 years ago.So what has that verse got to do with Jordan resealing tombs 2000 years later.
How does the resealing of entrances to tombs mark the end of seventy weeks that culminate in end of sins,reconciliation for iniquity and everlasting righteousness.
What Jesus obtained for us doesn’t need to be repeated ,it is fulfilled once and for all as the verses I posted above show.Below are some more


Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

[JOHNN]

I am sorry that I didn't make my points clear. Sometimes I don't connect the points very well, and with the leap that I take, it makes it hard for others to see what I am deducting.

Thanks for the questions. To answer I'll first give an overview.

The 2300-day prophecy of Daniel 8 begins with a commandment to "restore and build Jerusalem", the angel explains in Daniel 9, and this 2300-day period ends with the sanctuary being cleansed. From Leviticus 23 is shown that the Sanctuary was always cleansed on the Day of Atonement in the old sanctuary system.

Do you agree that the old sanctuary services or rehearsals showed the time of the events in the new covenant? Every thing done in the old sanctuary under the old covenant was prophetic of real events under the new covenant.

The observance of Passover showed the time that the Lamb of God would be crucified. Right?

The first 70 weeks of the 2300-day period is cut off as pertaining to the Jews, therefore, the remaining period of time is allotted to the Gentiles. Thus the "times of the Gentiles" is a portion of the 2300-day period. Agreed?

So if we see multiple fulfillments of the 2300-day prophecy is it not reasonable to expect more than one fulfillment of the "times of the Gentiles"?

Yes, Cyrus made a decree, Darius made another decree, and then Artexerxes made the last of these 3 commandments to restore and build Jerusalem, and his was the most comprehensive and complete in 457 B.C.

I'll stop here and would like to know if you see what I'm saying this far.

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:I am sorry that I didn't make my points clear. Sometimes I don't connect the points very well, and with the leap that I take, it makes it hard for others to see what I am deducting.

Thanks for the questions. To answer I'll first give an overview.

The 2300-day prophecy of Daniel 8 begins with a commandment to "restore and build Jerusalem", the angel explains in Daniel 9, and this 2300-day period ends with the sanctuary being cleansed. From Leviticus 23 is shown that the Sanctuary was always cleansed on the Day of Atonement in the old sanctuary system.

I have read Lev 23 twice through and cannot find reference to the cleansing of the Sanctuary, maybe you could show me where it is?

Quote:Do you agree that the old sanctuary services or rehearsals showed the time of the events in the new covenant? Every thing done in the old sanctuary under the old covenant was prophetic of real events under the new covenant.

No.I don't believe they showed time of events.What I believe is that the Old Covenant contained types and shadows of heavenly realities

Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in foods and drinks, and various washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Quote:The observance of Passover showed the time that the Lamb of God would be crucified. Right?

I am not following please explain.. The observance of Passover was meant to remember the exodus from Egypt and release from the servitude and bondage to the Egyptians. As I see it the Passover Lamb was a shadow of Christ ,who was crucified and bore our sins

1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Quote:The first 70 weeks of the 2300-day period is cut off as pertaining to the Jews, therefore, the remaining period of time is allotted to the Gentiles. Thus the "times of the Gentiles" is a portion of the 2300-day period. Agreed?

No,I don't understand what you mean.

Quote:So if we see multiple fulfillments of the 2300-day prophecy is it not reasonable to expect more than one fulfillment of the "times of the Gentiles"?

I don't see multiple fulfillments of the 2300 day prophecy.

[Ekklesia]

(05-17-2009 02:42 PM)Vic Wrote:  This is part of the passage relating to the time of the Gentiles being fulfilled.

So, What does it mean?

Vic, this is a great example of Hebrew idioms appearing in Greek, and not being recognize, so lets go back to the Greek (lets look at [Luke 21:24]) and see what Hebrew idioms they could be:
καιρός ἔθνος πληρόω ( kairos ethnos plēroō or "time of the gentiles be fulfilled" UKJV)

Interestingly, ἔθνος πληρόω (ethnos plēroō ) also appears in [Rom 11:25] as πλήρωμα ἔθνος (plērōma ethnos). Notice, the meaning is more clear here, because the word order is reversed and the form πλήρωμα plērōma is used instead of πληρόω plēroō.

Notice also from [Luke 21:24] that ethnos, has been translated inconstantly (as "nations" in the first instance, and "gentiles" in the second, which is the part you are asking about)

How is this a Hebrew idiom then?
First, the word ethnos (G1484) does not mean "gentile" meaning "non-Israelite". It means "nations" or "nation". It is from ethnos that we get the English word "ethnic".

The word ethnos can be found in the 60 million or so Greek words found in the Oxyrhynchus and Tebtunis papyri, representing Greek literature from Homer through to 1453 AD, and not once has it been translated as "gentile". The Greek word never carries the meaning that theologian translators translate it to mean. It is translated to mean 'nations' everywhere but these 93 biblical instances. "Nations" is what the Greek word "ethnos" meant. This suggests that its biblical translation has a theological agenda (because it's not been imparted with its common Greek meaning).

Lets look at [Luke 21:24] and [Rom 11:25], again translating ethnos consistently to mean "nations" IAW its non-theological Greek meaning. If the Greek word "ἐθνῶν" means nations rather than 'gentile', the expression "πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν" is the well known Hebrew idiom “multitude of nations” (גוי מלא or mĕlo gowy) from [Gen 48:19] expressed in Greek. [Gen 48:19] is when Jacob (Israel) confirmed the Abrahamic covenant with Ephraim and Manasseh.

Notice, that if the expression means "multitude of nations" from the Hebrew expression, this gives Paul's argument in [Romans 11:25] wonderful coherence, but also a strong connection to OT prophecy [Eze 37] since in [Romans 11], Paul is talking about Israel and their blindness (as well prophesied in Isaiah) and he uses the Greek expression “πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν”.

Vic, going back to the original language, ignoring the theologically loaded terms of modern translators, and thinking like a Hebrew who speaks Greek, renders your answer.

The verse in Luke is talking about the House of Israel and giving a sign-post for [Eze 37:11]

[Vic]

(06-26-2011 08:57 PM)Ekklesia Wrote:  

(05-17-2009 02:42 PM)Vic Wrote:  This is part of the passage relating to the time of the Gentiles being fulfilled.

So, What does it mean?

Vic, this is a great example of Hebrew idioms appearing in Greek, and not being recognize, so lets go back to the Greek (lets look at [Luke 21:24]) and see what Hebrew idioms they could be:
καιρός ἔθνος πληρόω ( kairos ethnos plēroō or "time of the gentiles be fulfilled" UKJV)

Interestingly, ἔθνος πληρόω (ethnos plēroō ) also appears in [Rom 11:25] as πλήρωμα ἔθνος (plērōma ethnos). Notice, the meaning is more clear here, because the word order is reversed and the form πλήρωμα plērōma is used instead of πληρόω plēroō.

Notice also from [Luke 21:24] that ethnos, has been translated inconstantly (as "nations" in the first instance, and "gentiles" in the second, which is the part you are asking about)

How is this a Hebrew idiom then?
First, the word ethnos (G1484) does not mean "gentile" meaning "non-Israelite". It means "nations" or "nation". It is from ethnos that we get the English word "ethnic".

The word ethnos can be found in the 60 million or so Greek words found in the Oxyrhynchus and Tebtunis papyri, representing Greek literature from Homer through to 1453 AD, and not once has it been translated as "gentile". The Greek word never carries the meaning that theologian translators translate it to mean. It is translated to mean 'nations' everywhere but these 93 biblical instances. "Nations" is what the Greek word "ethnos" meant. This suggests that its biblical translation has a theological agenda (because it's not been imparted with its common Greek meaning).

Lets look at [Luke 21:24] and [Rom 11:25], again translating ethnos consistently to mean "nations" IAW its non-theological Greek meaning. If the Greek word "ἐθνῶν" means nations rather than 'gentile', the expression "πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν" is the well known Hebrew idiom “multitude of nations” (גוי מלא or mĕlo gowy) from [Gen 48:19] expressed in Greek. [Gen 48:19] is when Jacob (Israel) confirmed the Abrahamic covenant with Ephraim and Manasseh.

Notice, that if the expression means "multitude of nations" from the Hebrew expression, this gives Paul's argument in [Romans 11:25] wonderful coherence, but also a strong connection to OT prophecy [Eze 37] since in [Romans 11], Paul is talking about Israel and their blindness (as well prophesied in Isaiah) and he uses the Greek expression “πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν”.

Vic, going back to the original language, ignoring the theologically loaded terms of modern translators, and thinking like a Hebrew who speaks Greek, renders your answer.

The verse in Luke is talking about the House of Israel and giving a sign-post for [Eze 37:11]

THinking like a Hebrew who speaks Greek huh? That would leave you out of the running right from the get go, wouldn't it. Since you are neither a Hebrew nor Greek. Oh I know, you claim to be of the house of Israel, but aren't a Jew.

Since the writers of the New Testament were inspired by God to write for the common people, in the common language of Greek which encompassed all nations, notions of Hebrew idioms are entirely unecessary to be able to understand the Scriptures.

I think on your guesswork of the words use and translational use as all being wrong except what you have proclaimed, I would use a phrase my grandmother used to use when rejecting some idea. Poppycock. It's actually a popcorn with nuts and flavoring in it but in this context means, Nonsense.... It's all in the use and context isn't it.

You aren't being consistent. You say we need to go back to the Hebrew to speak the Greek or understand it. Then go with what the Hebrew in the OT says, but as shown in the Christian Identity thread, you miss the true meanings. The only person I see here with a theological agenda is you.

Gentiles does not refer to Israel in any of the Scripture, neither the OT or NT.

Gentiles in OT>

Gen 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles h1471 divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

Gen 10:32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations 1471 divided in the earth after the flood.

gentiles or nations H1471
??? / ????
go^y
BDB Definition:
1) nation, people (noun masculine)
1a) nation, people
1a1) usually of non-Hebrew people
1a2) of descendants of Abraham
1a3) of Israel
1b) of swarm of locusts, other animals (figuratively)
1c) Goyim? = “nations” (noun proper masculine)
Part of Speech: see above in Definition
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: apparently from the same root as H1465
Same Word by TWOT Number: 326e

Strong's H1471
??? ????
go^y go^y
go'ee, go'-ee
Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

The scattering of the people making separate nations and peoples:

Gen 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
Gen 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Gen 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
Gen 11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Regarding the calling of Israel from out of all the other nations>

Lev 20:26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine. .

severed H914
בּדל
bâdal
BDB Definition:
1) to divide, separate
1a) (Hiphil)
1a1) to divide, separate, sever
1a2) to separate, set apart
1a3) to make a distinction, difference
1a4) to divide into parts
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to separate oneself from (reflexive of 1a2)
1b2) to withdraw from
1b3) to separate oneself unto
1b4) to be separated
1b5) to be excluded
1b6) to be set apart
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root

other people H5971
עם
‛am
BDB Definition:
1) nation, people
1a) people, nation
1b) persons, members of one’s people, compatriots, country-men
2) kinsman, kindred
Part of Speech: noun masculine

Deu 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations [h5971] that are upon the earth.
see Deut 7...

nations the nationsH5971 > noted above, which God gave Israel victory over many times. And dire warnings were given concerning these other nations:

Deu 7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD
thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
Deu 7:3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
Deu 7:4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
..Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Deu 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: ...

people >> H5971

In KJV goy is used as >nations 266 times, heathen 143, nation 109, gentiles 30, people 11

Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

Gentiles and heathen used interchangeably. There is always distinction between them and Israel. In fact many times Israel is rebuked for going the way of the nations or heathen or pagans. Those verses in context, incidently were the prophecy of change of the priesthood, which also shows this is a prophecy of the conversion of the Gentiles, and the spiritual priesthood of the Gospel times--which included Jews and Gentiles who believed Jesus Christ. Israel was repeatedly called Israel, or the children of Israel etc. Once called out, the distinction was made when to referring to Israel or Jews versus all other nations.

Mat 4:15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;

Gentiles G1484
e?´????
ethnos
Thayer Definition:
1) a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together
1a) a company, troop, swarm
2) a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus
2a) the human family
3) a tribe, nation, people group
4) in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles
5) Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably from G1486
Citing in TDNT: 2:364, 201

ethnos in KJV > gentiles 93, nations 37, nation 27, heathen 5, people 2

Strong's G1484
e?´????
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

H3478
??????
yis´ra^'e^l
BDB Definition:
Israel = “God prevails”
1) the second name for Jacob given to him by God after his wrestling with the angel at Peniel
2) the name of the descendants and the nation of the descendants of Jacob
2a) the name of the nation until the death of Solomon and the split
2b) the name used and given to the northern kingdom consisting of the 10 tribes under Jeroboam; the southern kingdom was known as Judah
2c) the name of the nation after the return from exile
Part of Speech: noun proper masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H8280 and H410

Lev 23:42 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:
Lev 23:43 That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Israel> G2474
??s?a?´?
Israe¯l
Thayer Definition:
Israel = “he shall be a prince of God”
1) the name given to the patriarch Jacob (and borne by him in addition to his former name)
2) the family or descendants of Israel, the nation of Israel
3) Christians, the Israel of God (Gal_6:16), for not all those who draw their bodily descent from Israel are true Israelites, i.e. are those whom God pronounces to be Israelites and has chosen to salvation
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of Hebrew origin H3478
Citing in TDNT: 3:356, 372

Strong's G2474
??s?a?´?
Israe¯l
is-rah-ale'
Of Hebrew origin [H3478]; Israel (that is, Jisrael), the adopted name of Jacob, including his descendants (literally or figuratively): - Israel.

Joh 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

G2475
??s?a???´t??
Israe¯lite¯s
Thayer Definition:
1) an Israelite, one of the nation of Israel, a name to be held in honour
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2474

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Jer 9:25 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised;
Jer 9:26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

circumcised H4135
מוּל
mûl
BDB Definition:
1) to circumcise, let oneself be circumcised, cut, be cut off
1a) (Qal) to circumcise
1b) (Niphal) to be circumcised, circumcise oneself
1c) (Hiphil) to cause to be circumcised
1c1) of destruction (figuratively)
1d) (Hithpolel) to be cut off
1e) (Polel) cut down
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root

H6189
ערל
‛ârêl
BDB Definition:
1) uncircumcised, having foreskin
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H6188

Act 16:1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Uncircumcision G203
a????ß?st?´a
akrobustia
Thayer Definition:
1) having the foreskin, uncircumcised
2) a Gentile
3) a condition in which the corrupt desires rooted in the flesh were not yet extinct
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G206 and probably a modified form of posthe (the ***** or male sexual organ)
Citing in TDNT: 1:225, 36

Circumcision> G4061
pe??t?µ?´
peritome¯
Thayer Definition:
1) circumcised
1a) the act or rite of circumcision, “they of the circumcision” is a term used of the Jews
1a1) of Christians gathered from among the Jews
1a2) the state of circumcision
1b) metaphorically
1b1) of Christians separated from the unclean multitude and truly consecrated to God
1b2) the extinction of passions and the removal of spiritual impurity
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4059
Citing in TDNT: 6:72, 831

Greek G1672
??´????
Helle¯n
Thayer Definition:
1) a Greek either by nationality, whether a native of the main land or of the Greek islands or colonies
2) in a wider sense the name embraces all nations not Jews that made the language, customs, and learning of the Greeks their own; the primary reference is to a difference of religion and worship
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1671
Citing in TDNT: 2:504, 227

Jewess
G2453
????da????
Ioudaios
Thayer Definition:
1) Jewish, belonging to the Jewish nation
2) Jewish as respects to birth, origin, religion
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2448 (in the sense of G2455 as a country)

barbarian G915
ßa´?ßa???
barbaros
Thayer Definition:
1) one whose speech is rude, rough and harsh
2) one who speaks a foreign or strange language which is not understood by another
3) used by the Greeks of any foreigner ignorant of the Greek language, whether mental or moral, with the added notion after the Persian war, of rudeness and brutality. The word is used in the N.T. without the idea of reproachfulness.
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain derivation

Scythian G4658
S??´???
Skuthe¯s
Thayer Definition:
Scythian = “rude or rough”
1) a Scythian, an inhabitant of Scythia or modern day Russia
1a) by the more civilised nations of antiquity the Scythians were regarded as the wildest of barbarians
Part of Speech: noun proper masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably of foreign origin
Citing in TDNT: 7:447, 1053

Roman G4514
???µa????
Rho¯maios
hro-mah'-yos
From G4516; Romaean, that is, Roman (as noun): - Roman, of Rome.

Joh 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
Joh 4:40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
Joh 4:41 And many more believed because of his own word;
Joh 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

These verses also illustrate how Jesus was not restricting Himself to the Israelite race, but was showing love for and that salvation was also to the Gentiles as prophesied. His teaching on the Good Samaritan, means much more when understanding the depth of hatred the Jews had for the Samaritans and vice versa.

Rom 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
Rom 1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
Rom 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Greek G1672
??´????
Helle¯n
Thayer Definition:
1) a Greek either by nationality, whether a native of the main land or of the Greek islands or colonies
2) in a wider sense the name embraces all nations not Jews that made the language, customs, and learning of the Greeks their own; the primary reference is to a difference of religion and worship
Part of Speech: noun masculine

Jesus came for Israel and all other nations, that is, Gentiles. THe time of the Gentiles was the extending of salvation not to just the Jews, when the New Covenant was brought in, [Jesus is the New Covenant] but Gentiles--non Jews. Both have the opportunity to know Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. THere will be a time when that opportunity is fulfilled. When all will have been given that opportunity. Prior to the New Covenant, before Christ walked the earth, the way to God was to join with Israel and follow what God had commanded them to do in the Sinai covenant. Then prophecies were fulfilled in Christ, the waited Messiah, Redeemer and Salvation promised by God. And the prophecies concerning the Gentiles :

Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

[Mary]

(06-26-2011 08:57 PM)Ekklesia Wrote:  

(05-17-2009 02:42 PM)Vic Wrote:  This is part of the passage relating to the time of the Gentiles being fulfilled.

So, What does it mean?

Vic, this is a great example of Hebrew idioms appearing in Greek, and not being recognize, so lets go back to the Greek (lets look at [Luke 21:24]) and see what Hebrew idioms they could be:
καιρός ἔθνος πληρόω ( kairos ethnos plēroō or "time of the gentiles be fulfilled" UKJV)

Interestingly, ἔθνος πληρόω (ethnos plēroō ) also appears in [Rom 11:25] as πλήρωμα ἔθνος (plērōma ethnos). Notice, the meaning is more clear here, because the word order is reversed and the form πλήρωμα plērōma is used instead of πληρόω plēroō.

Notice also from [Luke 21:24] that ethnos, has been translated inconstantly (as "nations" in the first instance, and "gentiles" in the second, which is the part you are asking about)

How is this a Hebrew idiom then?
First, the word ethnos (G1484) does not mean "gentile" meaning "non-Israelite". It means "nations" or "nation". It is from ethnos that we get the English word "ethnic".

The word ethnos can be found in the 60 million or so Greek words found in the Oxyrhynchus and Tebtunis papyri, representing Greek literature from Homer through to 1453 AD, and not once has it been translated as "gentile". The Greek word never carries the meaning that theologian translators translate it to mean. It is translated to mean 'nations' everywhere but these 93 biblical instances. "Nations" is what the Greek word "ethnos" meant. This suggests that its biblical translation has a theological agenda (because it's not been imparted with its common Greek meaning).

Lets look at [Luke 21:24] and [Rom 11:25], again translating ethnos consistently to mean "nations" IAW its non-theological Greek meaning. If the Greek word "ἐθνῶν" means nations rather than 'gentile', the expression "πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν" is the well known Hebrew idiom “multitude of nations” (גוי מלא or mĕlo gowy) from [Gen 48:19] expressed in Greek. [Gen 48:19] is when Jacob (Israel) confirmed the Abrahamic covenant with Ephraim and Manasseh.

Notice, that if the expression means "multitude of nations" from the Hebrew expression, this gives Paul's argument in [Romans 11:25] wonderful coherence, but also a strong connection to OT prophecy [Eze 37] since in [Romans 11], Paul is talking about Israel and their blindness (as well prophesied in Isaiah) and he uses the Greek expression “πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν”.

Vic, going back to the original language, ignoring the theologically loaded terms of modern translators, and thinking like a Hebrew who speaks Greek, renders your answer.

The verse in Luke is talking about the House of Israel and giving a sign-post for [Eze 37:11]

Ekklesia, I'm not sure from your post of what you are trying to say: is "multitude of nations" an Hebrew idiom or is "the fulness of the 'multitude of nations'" the idiom; or is just "nations" the idiom? and what does it actually mean? You say it is an Hebrew idiom, but you do not offer it's meaning.