(06-26-2011 08:57 PM)Ekklesia Wrote:
(05-17-2009 02:42 PM)Vic Wrote: This is part of the passage relating to the time of the Gentiles being fulfilled.
So, What does it mean?
Vic, this is a great example of Hebrew idioms appearing in Greek, and not being recognize, so lets go back to the Greek (lets look at [Luke 21:24]) and see what Hebrew idioms they could be:
καιρός ἔθνος πληρόω ( kairos ethnos plēroō or "time of the gentiles be fulfilled" UKJV)
Interestingly, ἔθνος πληρόω (ethnos plēroō ) also appears in [Rom 11:25] as πλήρωμα ἔθνος (plērōma ethnos). Notice, the meaning is more clear here, because the word order is reversed and the form πλήρωμα plērōma is used instead of πληρόω plēroō.
Notice also from [Luke 21:24] that ethnos, has been translated inconstantly (as "nations" in the first instance, and "gentiles" in the second, which is the part you are asking about)
How is this a Hebrew idiom then?
First, the word ethnos (G1484) does not mean "gentile" meaning "non-Israelite". It means "nations" or "nation". It is from ethnos that we get the English word "ethnic".
The word ethnos can be found in the 60 million or so Greek words found in the Oxyrhynchus and Tebtunis papyri, representing Greek literature from Homer through to 1453 AD, and not once has it been translated as "gentile". The Greek word never carries the meaning that theologian translators translate it to mean. It is translated to mean 'nations' everywhere but these 93 biblical instances. "Nations" is what the Greek word "ethnos" meant. This suggests that its biblical translation has a theological agenda (because it's not been imparted with its common Greek meaning).
Lets look at [Luke 21:24] and [Rom 11:25], again translating ethnos consistently to mean "nations" IAW its non-theological Greek meaning. If the Greek word "ἐθνῶν" means nations rather than 'gentile', the expression "πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν" is the well known Hebrew idiom “multitude of nations” (גוי מלא or mĕlo gowy) from [Gen 48:19] expressed in Greek. [Gen 48:19] is when Jacob (Israel) confirmed the Abrahamic covenant with Ephraim and Manasseh.
Notice, that if the expression means "multitude of nations" from the Hebrew expression, this gives Paul's argument in [Romans 11:25] wonderful coherence, but also a strong connection to OT prophecy [Eze 37] since in [Romans 11], Paul is talking about Israel and their blindness (as well prophesied in Isaiah) and he uses the Greek expression “πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν”.
Vic, going back to the original language, ignoring the theologically loaded terms of modern translators, and thinking like a Hebrew who speaks Greek, renders your answer.
The verse in Luke is talking about the House of Israel and giving a sign-post for [Eze 37:11]
Ekklesia, I'm not sure from your post of what you are trying to say: is "multitude of nations" an Hebrew idiom or is "the fulness of the 'multitude of nations'" the idiom; or is just "nations" the idiom? and what does it actually mean? You say it is an Hebrew idiom, but you do not offer it's meaning.