Sacrifices Re-Instituted in the Third Temple

[Rose of Shushan]

Sheep your post brings to mind the Scripture that says

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember, that you being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off are made near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you who were afar off, and to them that were near.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore you are no more strangers and sojourners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together grows unto a holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom you also are built together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.

[Rose of Shushan]

Stref I noticed you made reference to Ezekiel 36

Quote:Moreover I take it as part of his plan to save as many Jews who will that he would return them to the Land in unbelief as has happened (so Ezekiel 36 seems to imply) then reinstitute the sacrifice, which is yet to occur, thus restoring the manifest ritualist workings of the old covenant not for the benfit of us, but for the Jews, so that when back under the full force of the old covenant they may be shown the New and have the opportuinity to choose it

So I take it you think this is yet to occur again. Ezekiel spoke to the exiles on the streets of Babylon.They were in a foreign land and scattered.

Eze 36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a woman in her impurity.
Eze 36:18 Therefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols with which they had polluted it:
Eze 36:19 And I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
Eze 36:20 And when they entered unto the nations, where they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and have gone forth out of his land.

Then the verses that follow on, would you not agree were fulfilled when he brought them back from Babylon and indeed all the countries that they had been scattered to


Ezr 2:1 Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those who had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city;
Ezr 3:1 And when the seventh month was come, and the children of Israel were in the towns, the people gathered themselves together as one man to Jerusalem.


When I read Ezra and then Nehemiah there can be no doubt that God did bring his people back from the captivity.Did every single one of them return, no, the prophets always promised a remnant would return, never a block en masse conversion of his people.But he did promise them that Jeruslaem would be inhabited again and it was.

Neh 11:1 And the rulers of the people dwelt at Jerusalem: the rest of the people also cast lots, to bring one of ten to dwell in Jerusalem the holy city, and nine tenths to dwell in other cities.
Neh 11:2 And the people blessed all the men, that willingly offered themselves to dwell at Jerusalem.

The writer of the book of Nehemiah acknowledges this

Neh 1:8 Remember, I beseech you, the word that you commanded your servant Moses, saying, If you transgress, I will scatter you abroad among the nations:
Neh 1:9 But if you turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though some of you were cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, yet will I gather them from there, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there.
Neh 1:10 Now these are your servants and your people, whom you have redeemed by your great power, and by your strong hand.

Neh 5:8 And I said unto them, We after our ability have redeemed our brethren the Jews, who were sold unto the nations; and will you even sell your brethren? or shall they be sold unto us? Then held they their peace, and found nothing to answer.
Neh 5:9 Also I said, It is not good what you do: ought you not to walk in the fear of our God because of the reproach of the nations our enemies?

Neh 7:5 And my God put into my heart to gather together the nobles, and the rulers, and the people, that they might be registered by genealogy. And I found a register of the genealogy of them who came up at the first, and found written in it,
Neh 7:6 These are the children of the province, that went up out of the captivity, of those that had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away, and came again to Jerusalem and to Judah, every one unto his city;

There are similar verses in those 2 books, where we see that the word spoken by Ezekiel did come true and those exiles in Babylon did return to Jerusalem once more and dwelt in their own land. To me its taking the words of Ezekiel totally out of context if we say that they also apply to the return to the land in our day.They were spoken as encouragement to the exiles in Babylon who thought they had been cut off from Jerusalem for ever and true to word God returned them back .

Neh 10:28 And the rest of the people, the priests, the Levites, the gatekeepers, the singers, the Nethinim, and all they that had separated themselves from the people of the lands unto the law of God, their wives, their sons, and their daughters, every one having knowledge, and having understanding;
Neh 10:29 They joined with their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God’s law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his ordinances and his statutes;

They did want to keep Gods laws and commandments as we see there.However, as was now a regular pattern eventually they failed again as indeed we all do when trying to become righteous by our own efforts.

[sheep wrecked]

We moved most of the posts in this thread and started a new one in Apologetics. Here is the link:


http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=357

Let's please keep this thread on topic

[FrankDH]

Vic Wrote:The sacrificial system was destroyed, not just by the destruction of the Temple, but when Jesus died.

Right here is where you get off track.

Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicted without blood.

G1457
ἐγκαινίζω
egkainizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to renew
2) to do anew, again
3) to initiate, consecrate, dedication
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1456
Citing in TDNT: 3:453, 388

It is the application of the blood that dedicates [initiates] the new covenant.

Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.



All the people of Israel were enjioned into the old covenant upon being sprinkled with the sacrificial blood. That's the pattern for the
new covenant.


Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Jesus provided a better sacrifice according to the pattern. He didn't altar the pattern or the blood of calves and goats would
not have foreshadowed His blood.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

It is the new covenant and sprinkling of blood that offers better things. You leave out the sprinkling of blood when you bring
all under the new covenant before they are washed in that blood.

Moses delivered the precepts of the first covenant to Israel but Israel did not come under the covenant until all the people were sprinkled with the blood of the sacrifice. This is the pattern for the new covenant. The sacrifice is the offering of a way to enter into the covenant. It is the washing in the blood that brings one into the covenant.

And according to the pattern, to enter the new covenant one must be washed in the sacrificial blood.

When Moses offered up the sacrifice, the whole of mankind did not come under the old covenant. Only those who were srinkled in the blood of the covenant entered this covenant. It is the same with the new covenant. The pattern confirms it.

You alter the pattern God designed. All come under the covenant with the completion of the sacrifice. You do not require the sprinkling of blood to enter the covenant.

Israel has never entered into the new covenant. The only blood they have ever been sprinkled with is the old covenant blood. But you place them under the new covenant by sidestepping the process for entry. You do not apply the pattern of God to come to your conclusions. Without being sprinkled in the blood of a better sacrifice, no one comes under the better covenant.

Peter understood the process. He didn't see the sprinkling of blood as an unneccessary step to being brought into the covenant.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Only after one enters the new covenant, having been washed in the blood of Jesus Christ, does the old covenant get replaced. There is no replacement of the old covenant outside being washed in Christ's blood.

Israel remains under the old covenant until they come into the new one.
You can't knock down a temple to end it. You can't offer an alternative to end it. You have to partake of the new covenant to end it by being washed in Christ's blood.

[Vic]

(06-25-2009 01:15 PM)FrankDH Wrote:  

Vic Wrote:The sacrificial system was destroyed, not just by the destruction of the Temple, but when Jesus died.

Right here is where you get off track.

Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicted without blood.

G1457
ἐγκαινίζω
egkainizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to renew
2) to do anew, again
3) to initiate, consecrate, dedication
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1456
Citing in TDNT: 3:453, 388

It is the application of the blood that dedicates [initiates] the new covenant.

Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

All the people of Israel were enjioned into the old covenant upon being sprinkled with the sacrificial blood. That's the pattern for the
new covenant.

Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Jesus provided a better sacrifice according to the pattern. He didn't altar the pattern or the blood of calves and goats would
not have foreshadowed His blood.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

It is the new covenant and sprinkling of blood that offers better things. You leave out the sprinkling of blood when you bring
all under the new covenant before they are washed in that blood.

Moses delivered the precepts of the first covenant to Israel but Israel did not come under the covenant until all the people were sprinkled with the blood of the sacrifice. This is the pattern for the new covenant. The sacrifice is the offering of a way to enter into the covenant. It is the washing in the blood that brings one into the covenant.

And according to the pattern, to enter the new covenant one must be washed in the sacrificial blood.

When Moses offered up the sacrifice, the whole of mankind did not come under the old covenant. Only those who were srinkled in the blood of the covenant entered this covenant. It is the same with the new covenant. The pattern confirms it.

You alter the pattern God designed. All come under the covenant with the completion of the sacrifice. You do not require the sprinkling of blood to enter the covenant.

Israel has never entered into the new covenant. The only blood they have ever been sprinkled with is the old covenant blood. But you place them under the new covenant by sidestepping the process for entry. You do not apply the pattern of God to come to your conclusions. Without being sprinkled in the blood of a better sacrifice, no one comes under the better covenant.

Peter understood the process. He didn't see the sprinkling of blood as an unneccessary step to being brought into the covenant.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Only after one enters the new covenant, having been washed in the blood of Jesus Christ, does the old covenant get replaced. There is no replacement of the old covenant outside being washed in Christ's blood.

Israel remains under the old covenant until they come into the new one.
You can't knock down a temple to end it. You can't offer an alternative to end it. You have to partake of the new covenant to end it by being washed in Christ's blood.

Frank you are heading off topic again.

Israel along with all mankind of all nations who does not know Jesus Christ---remains in sin and has no forgiveness of sins....even if a third temple is built and sacrifices are given again. There is no sacrifice that can be given ever again for sin. Jesus was the final sacrifice--for all mankind--Jew and Gentile--for all sin...

With the promise of that forgiveness and the cleansing of the blood, the FINAL sacrificial Lamb, came the establishment of the New Covenant--which brought in a New Priesthood--and a New Law--written on our hearts and written as the New Testament which proclaims the New Covenant promised by God in Jeremiah 31. Those who reject it, reject Christ. It is a choice each makes.

Just as many Jews came to Christ and believed Him, when He walked the earth and the apostles gave witness--many pharisees, levitical priests and other Jews followed Christ--knowing that He fulfilled the prophecies and the law. They were part of the nation of Israel Frank. Proving that God had not cast them off forever.

Simply put Frank, I missed nothing--although I may have not stated everything-in this thread. Look at the New Covenant threads and the law and such---you have a one track mind--and are missing the issues.

Hebrews 7:11-12 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12. For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Aren't all called Frank? Aren't the elect those who believe Jesus Christ and receive the truth of the Gospel. Jew and Gentile, One New Man---or have there been zero Jews, including the apostles, who actually believed Christ?

1 Peter 2:4-10 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5. Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8. And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Hos 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Paul wrote by inspiration of the Holy Spirit,

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

God said He would > Jeremiah 31:31-33 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.34...for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Christ is the New Covenant. There is not another one to come.

Isaiah 42:1-9 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5. Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6. I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7. To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8. I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. 9. Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

The offer and promise of salvation was given to the Jews and the Gentiles by God. Jesus died Once for ALL. Each must make a choice. Everyone is under condemnation who rejects Him. Jew and Gentile. Regardless of what they may have believed in the past or believe currently. Salvation is extended to each.

John 6:44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

You keep bringing up these issues and not keeping to topic. Nor do you seem to understand the difference between the New Covenant, the Mosaic Law, rabbinic judaism and so on.

This thread is closed to you Frank.

Please read the Messiainic section if you wish to discuss the new covenant etc.

[SheitlQueen]

(06-03-2009 10:54 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  Judaism stands on the vision because it's all they have to hope for sins to be atoned for with the blood of animals and for the old covenant to continue as given to Israel.

One small correction, if I may. We do not believe that blood is needed
to atone for one's sin. That is not a Jewish concept, but a Christian
one.

One question, too, since I am unfamiliar with Christian writings.

Did not Christians continue to offer sacrifices in the Temple
after the death of Jesus? If so, how did Christianity later
move away from the sacrificial system to the point they do
not believe in it's resumption when the Third Temple is built?
Further more, do Christians believe a Third Temple will be
built?

[sheep wrecked]

(06-29-2009 08:26 PM)SheitlQueen Wrote:  

(06-03-2009 10:54 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  Judaism stands on the vision because it's all they have to hope for sins to be atoned for with the blood of animals and for the old covenant to continue as given to Israel.

One small correction, if I may. We do not believe that blood is needed
to atone for one's sin. That is not a Jewish concept, but a Christian
one.

I must have been out to lunch to make that statement! Thank you for bringing it to my attention so I can edit it!

I believe that is a Tanakh concept, but I know it's not part of Judaism. I have had some discussion on it with a Jewish Rabbi, indicating that prayer for forgiveness covers sin. Am I correct on that point?

Quote:One question, too, since I am unfamiliar with Christian writings.

Did not Christians continue to offer sacrifices in the Temple
after the death of Jesus? If so, how did Christianity later
move away from the sacrificial system to the point they do
not believe in it's resumption when the Third Temple is built?
Further more, do Christians believe a Third Temple will be
built?

There is no evidence that Christians continued to offer sacrifices in the Temple after the death of Christ. According to the book of Hebrews, Jesus' sacrifice covered all sacrifices and sins, "once and for all", so there was no reason for them to do so. I believe that the cessation of sacrifices for the disciples/Christians ended immediately upon the resurrection of Jesus.

However; most Messy's teach that the disciples did sacrifice, which would support their observance of Torah. Most Messy's also believe that the third Temple will be built and the sacrificial system reinstituted.

Some Christians also believe that the 3rd Temple will be built. It's a rather diverse topic with many different perspectives.

[SheitlQueen]

Quote:prayer for forgiveness covers sin. Am I correct on that point?

basically we have to recognize the sin, ask forgiveness for it, and commit to never doing it again.

In the Tanach there were other was of atonement that did not involve blood offerings.

Quote:However; most Messy's teach that the disciples did sacrifice, which would support their observance of Torah

That is probably where I have seen it. I thought they offered verses from the NT too to support their claim, but I could
be totally wrong about that.

[Rose of Shushan]

SheitlQueen

from my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) while not all sacrifices required blood ,without the sacrificing of the respective animals it becomes impossible to observe a large part of the Mosaic Law.The shedding of blood and the whole blood concept runs through the whole of the Mosaic Law.This I see is one of the main differences between Judaism and Christianity.
Judaism today ,to my view, skims over the whole blood and animal sacrifice thing since theres no sacrificing going on.I know the answer give is that theres no Temple but neither was there at the time of David, or prior to him.
So to say that nowadays prayer and repentance suffice brings up a whole lot of questions which I am sure you are already familiar with. One of these which relates to this thread would be, if prayer and repentance are enough, why would we need to go back to sacrifices and slaughtering millions of animals for sacrificial purposes? If prayer and repentance are enough, why did God command the sacrifices in the first place.
Yes we know, that what God really wants from us is a pure heart and that we love Him with all our hearts,minds and souls.It is a theme that runs throughout the Tanak.That sacrifices and offerings are worthless to Him if underlying those are the wrong heart attitude.But he still required the sacrifices in addition to the right heart attitude.
Take this verse here

Psa 51:16 For you desire not sacrifice; else would I give it: you delight not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Many will say, see, there God doesnt really want sacrifices.But look to the next verses

Psa 51:18 Do good in your good pleasure unto Zion: build you the walls of Jerusalem.
Psa 51:19 Then shall you be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon your altar.

What God doesn't want is sacrifices to merely appease the sacrificial aspects of the Law when theres no true repentance.He did require the sacrifices but not just as an outward show.

Its a really good topic but I don't want to just ramble on and on since I'm so tempted to go off on tangents already LOL.

[sheep wrecked]

(06-29-2009 11:14 PM)SheitlQueen Wrote:  

Quote:sheep:
However; most Messy's teach that the disciples did sacrifice, which would support their observance of Torah

That is probably where I have seen it. I thought they offered verses from the NT too to support their claim, but I could
be totally wrong about that.

You are correct. They use a passage in Acts. However; when one closely reads the text, it says no such thing. It had to to with the Nazerite vow which required an 8th day sacrifice. Paul was arrested and imprisoned on the 7th day, and therefore did not sacrifice. There is more to that whole incident, but that should suffice on the error being promoted. There is no other evidence in the NT that any of the disciples or followers of Jesus, after His resurrection, took part in the sacrificial system.