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What Can We Learn From The Jim Jones Cult?
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05-28-2009, 05:24 PM
Post: #11
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RE: What Can We Learn From The Jim Jones Cult?
My purpose for this thread is to explore the similarities between followers of Jim Jones and in particular, the false movements in Christianity. What tactics did Jones use that are typical of false movements, churches, leaders etc that hold people captive to their systems? Why can't people break free from the obvious issues that threaten to destroy them rather than "save" them?
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05-29-2009, 04:17 PM
Post: #12
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RE: What Can We Learn From The Jim Jones Cult?
(05-28-2009 05:24 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: My purpose for this thread is to explore the similarities between followers of Jim Jones and in particular, the false movements in Christianity. What tactics did Jones use that are typical of false movements, churches, leaders etc that hold people captive to their systems? Why can't people break free from the obvious issues that threaten to destroy them rather than "save" them? Interesting questions. What tactics are typically used... For many, the initial draw is the sense of labeling the hypocrisy and less than Christ like behaviors and attitudes one can find in any church or group of believers. The problem is, and what is lacking, is understanding and knowing the Scriptures well enough to know that these things are going to happen. We were warned Scripturally. There are always going to be those who pay lip service rather than heart service, those who are carnal versus those who walk in the Spirit and so on. The tactic is the proclamation that you don't want to be like "those" hypocrits, pagans, dead christians, etc. The carrot is you need to belong and be a part of a loving and living it "family". Where everyone really does love God, really does help others, really does give up everything for their beliefs. Then the leader of whatever cult it is, must be able to convey that they are being incredibly scriptural, hence the use and misuse and perversion of Scripture, all the while showing they have this special relationship with God and you can have it to... IF you do the things they say.... ![]() --sell everything and move to be close to this leader who claims they are called by God to lead them...give them your money.... It's God's work ... ![]() --agree to uphold that leadership and group no matter what "persecution" there is---meaning anyone that tries to pull you out of said group is ant-christ or the enemy etc ...the leadership always has your best interest in mind and even when harsh it is for the greater good... --be willing to place that leadership on a pedestal -meaning that it is not Christ they follow but that person--who some would believe is getting direct or new revelation from God...or....they have talked their indoctrination so well, the followers believe that any outsider is merely lost or there to cause harm... ![]() --believe they have the only true faith and all others are deceived, pagan, lost...ego is fed as with all gnostic doctrine....they are the ones who hold the truth,...who alone understand...who alone can receive the truth. ![]() --many feel isolated and alone and the offer of love, friendship, a full life with others of like minds, brings the needed emotional connection --The Way International a prime example...the focus on separating followers and isolating them is viewed as necessary to protect and help them grow spiritually... ![]() --believe that the leadership must be viewed as having the answers...they are needed to discern the truth of the scriptures...to bring in the new and needed understanding...that without them the person would be set adrift...a sheep among wolves...and what they miss is they are already sheep among wolves by their choices which turn them from Christ to that leadership and group. ![]() The conditioning must be such that the followers fully believe that they are walking with and experiencing God more than they ever have before. And that walk means obedience to that leadership because they are there to teach and direct their flock--as God ordained. ![]() What is missed: God is the only one to be on a pedestal. The Holy Spirit was sent to comfort and teach all believers. And the Scriptures are our standard of truth, not some person. 1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. No one person holds the Truth. The truth is found in the Scriptures, which must be our standard of Truth. We are all of the royal priesthood---no one is better than another. 1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: No one is to be elevated as something over others. We walk on a level plain, each with different things God would have us do to fulfill His purposes. We are to follow Christ, and the examples of the apostles---the ones who walked with Christ on this earth. Ephesians 2:18-22 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. People are being deceived because Jesus Christ is not sufficient in their lives, because they have not understood that it starts with our relationship with Him, which comes with prayer and studying of the Scriptures, where He gives understanding to us. They haven't done their homework, because if they had, they would see the wolves for what they are, instead of thinking they are following other sheep, or wolves masquerading like sheep. And there's the mistake---they are following others to their destruction, instead of the Good Shepherd. Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Vic SeekGod.ca 3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. |
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06-01-2009, 04:28 PM
Post: #13
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RE: What Can We Learn From The Jim Jones Cult?
Jim Jones went down in history as a cultist who led a 1000+ people into the jungle and gave them cyanide laced "kool-aid" causing the deaths of almost 1000 followers.
Here is a look at his beginnings. As you can see, his influence began as what may appear to be "sound" to many people. My observation is that what drew people to Jim Jones, still draws people into false religious movements. Is death by poisoned kool-aid any worse than the spiritual death being promoted today as Biblical truth? Quote:Jones became a student pastor at a Methodist Quote:Selections from an interview with Marceline Jones [Jim’s wife]: |
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08-02-2009, 04:56 AM
Post: #14
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RE: What Can We Learn From The Jim Jones Cult?
(05-28-2009 05:20 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:(05-28-2009 04:39 PM)Strefanash Wrote: I was not speaking to all those deluded by Jone's outfit, but my own experience If my fruit is carnal, and they are, then my real thinking, as opposed to the mere intellectual verbiage where my theology is, is carnal also. I am carnal minded. I depend on God to lead me to repent of the carnality that lurks, but of course I argue with him and have resisted him tooth and nail at every point. And such dependance as I have only came as he took the initiative 31 years ago and continues to do so I do not separate out my mind and say "ah that is only the carnal mind" ignore it" I was taught this and it nearly destroyed me. MY unbelieving thought and opinions, the ones that bubble up as if from nowhere are me and show i am carnal minded, for as a man thinks in his heart SO HE IS. And neither do I claim it is a demon. That is a "devil made me do it" cop out. So all that filth is me. No one else. I know mytself by my fruit and it is carnal and i am carnal minded. So is everyone else that I can see. The best I can see are commonly decent people no better than the very best atheists (and I knew an atheist who was, in behaviour, a model of kindness and generosity). But that is no recommendation concerning us IF a person walking in the spirit and fully dependant on God is not carnal minded then I have never met one in all these years. Therefore being a reborn christian is not the same thing a walking in the spirit. If it were Paul would bnot have needed to wrrite letters to the churches which were all beset with carnalities of their own |
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08-02-2009, 01:06 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-02-2009 08:53 PM by Vic.)
Post: #15
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RE: What Can We Learn From The Jim Jones Cult?
(08-02-2009 04:56 AM)Strefanash Wrote: If my fruit is carnal, and they are, then my real thinking, as opposed to the mere intellectual verbiage where my theology is, is carnal also. Stref, >I am carnal minded. I depend on God to lead me to repent of the carnality that lurks, but of course I argue with him and have resisted him tooth and nail at every point.> Being carnal minded means you cannot ever please God, and that means, you will die in your sin. Romans 8:5-14 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. The thing is Stref, God will not always strive with you. He is not going to always allow you to spit back at Him, reject Him, reject the Truth of His love, reject the Truth of the Scriptures. You have made an idol of being carnal. Making others to blame for your choices of rejecting God. They treated you badly. They didn't understand you. They didn't live for Christ the way you thought they should. They made you reject God's love. They made you go after a familiar spirit--which you did grab onto while in the charismatic teachings which you say you reject...but you don't. It's about your relationship with Jesus Christ or lack of one Stref. No one else. Your writings give the appearance you idolise your own self, your intelligence, your rejection of God, all the while viewing others through your lense of unbelief. Believing no one can love God, no one can Live for Christ, no one can be walking in the Spirit...because you can't, won't, don't and you refuse to live for Christ. Titus 1:15-16 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. To you, because you wallow in unbelief and hatred of God--yes Stref, hatred because if you refuse to love God nor accept His love, you have the opposite feeling for Him, when you fight Him. You've been at it too long to not have decided to not love Him. You admit it in almost every post you make. The thing is Stref, God will not always strive with you. Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Romans 9:18-22 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: >>>I know mytself by my fruit and it is carnal and i am carnal minded. So is everyone else that I can see. >>> Knowing your fruit is carnal means you understand that you bear bad fruit. And bad fruit leads to destruction. You can't really belong to Christ and bring forth bad fruit. Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matthew 12:32-35 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 33. Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. Matthew 13:3-9 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4. And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: 5. Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: 6. And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: 8. But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. 9. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Luke 6:43-49 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 44. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. 45. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. 46. And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? 47. Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: 48. He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. 49. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great. It's a choice Stref that you have determined to make for over 30 years. To live for yourself and fight God. That's a choice Stref that you almost appear proud of. People aren't all like you Stref. I realise that overturns your perceptions and judgements of others. Others do love God, others do live for Christ. Others do accept God's love. Others do walk in the Spirit which is pleasing to God -- because they know Jesus Christ and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Others know that it isn't because of their own righteousness or understandings--but because of Christ's righteousness and Him giving the understandings. <<IF a person walking in the spirit and fully dependant on God is not carnal minded then I have never met one in all these years. Therefore being a reborn christian is not the same thing a walking in the spirit. If it were Paul would bnot have needed to wrrite letters to the churches which were all beset with carnalities of their own >>> You have met some Stref. You just reject them because you reject the Truth of Christ and the Love of God. Therefore you cannot accept what they have as Truth. You would rather live in and wallow in defeat and be headed for destruction than say , Yes Lord. You'd rather in your stubborn arrogance fight God tooth and nail, and say you did that (which you do in almost every post), than say you went on bended knee before God, and asked His forgiveness for all the things you know stand between Him and you. You would rather resist the Truth, than give into God's love, and know the peace, joy and rest that comes from knowing Christ. Because it can be known Stref, and is known and experienced by many who walk with Him daily. You'd rather think you are unique by fighting God. Well you are not. The wide road is filled with people who shake their fists at God. You want to shake your fist at God and argue and resist Him and think you are doing a good thing. The Scriptures say otherwise. Hebrews 3:7-19 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8. Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9. When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15. While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18. And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19. So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Luke 8:15-18 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. 16. No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light. 17. For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. 18. Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have. And Stref, I wouldn't bother responding to you at all and telling you these things, if I didn't care about you. Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Vic SeekGod.ca 3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. |
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08-09-2009, 10:47 PM
Post: #16
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RE: What Can We Learn From The Jim Jones Cult?
Here are some of my thoughts on getting drawn into the Jones debacle:
The Jonestown massacre was another horrific event of my generation where many remember exactly where they were and what they were doing when the news began breaking. I was living in the world back then but even I had known nothing good was going to come from Jones. Prior to the massacre many of us thought Jones was a poster child for belief in demon possession. Power and control is the name of that human game. To paraphrase Lord Acton – Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. ![]() I think those who have been injured by the adults they should have been able to trust , especially in their early childhood years, are more likely to become control freaks themselves because their worlds were always SO out of control and they were powerless. Some learn to manipulate in order to survive. When they’re adults it’s time to deny the inner fear, turn the tables and never be victimized again. Obviously some folks take that to the extremes of victimizing others.Jones actively sought out the weak, afflicted and lonely under the guise of Christian compassion; who could be easier to influence? He groomed his followers as any sexual predator grooms his prey and then uses their secrets – real or contrived – to hold them captive to his will. God created us to be relational so we search for, long for, fulfillment of that need. Jones knew that. If he even marginally met those needs loyalty and trust could be built pretty quickly – “the man’s a saint!” Then when he valued someone enough to pick them to “help” him help someone else … they became validated – what an ego feed. Now in addition to probable secret knowledge keeping them in the group – they OWE him. Once they trust him he begins the deconstruction process - they can’t trust their own judgments or perceptions and still have the approval of the Jones or the core group ![]() So they ignore the warning signs and wake up one day wondering how things got so crazy. They had just wanted love and acceptance and to be a part of something bigger than they believed they could be on their own. Some are so brainwashed from the lifestyle and counterfeit “miracles” their hardened hearts would no longer recover. Whether it’s Jones or one of many others that have been or will become, my opinion is it’s a testament to why we must take responsibility for praying and for studying the Word. Why we shouldn’t assume someone who sounds like they have some authority, even if they do have a doctorate of divinity, has all the right answers without testing for ourselves as the Bereans were commended for doing. Even an excellent leader is not going to be Jesus Christ. I think we need to be respectful and kind whenever possible (after all we are also imperfect), but be sure our faith is placed in God, not transferred to a human leader. The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God... Romans 8:16 |
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08-10-2009, 09:24 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-10-2009 09:28 PM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #17
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RE: What Can We Learn From The Jim Jones Cult?
(08-09-2009 10:47 PM)Izzy Wrote: Here are some of my thoughts on getting drawn into the Jones debacle: I understand what you are trying to say, but I think there is a lot more to it with cults, and specifically Jim Jones. People of all walks of life [lawyers, teachers, nurses, bookkeepers, etc] fully embraced his teachings and his ability to convince people that he had their interests in mind, as well as convincing outsiders that his congregation was altruistic and bent on changing the world. To his followers, it made no difference as to his belief system regarding Christ. That was a means to the end to get people inside the door. His greatest achievement was his charismatic personality and his ability to deceive not only his followers, but Presidents [of the USA], governors, congressmen, politicians, reporters, newspapers, etc. The people who joined his cult were looking for unprejudiced acceptance - a group who rose above color, ethnicity, and rank - all unified for the greater good. A Christian life was not ever promoted. He tricked people with his healing magic so they would think he was spiritual. In the end, his congregation followed him to their deaths. A few escaped, and a few "rebelled" and were forced to die in the end. I have heard the audio tape of the last 45 minutes of Jonestown. It is creepy. The people were singing and shouting with joy at the prospect of death. Dying for their system, dying for their leader, who gave up his life to suffer for their behalf. And so, over 900 people were the victims of murder by suicide by ingesting the poison, happily dying for the cause. As Jones put it: "Take our life from us. We laid it down. We got tired. We didn't commit suicide, we committed an act of revolutionary suicide protesting the conditions of an inhumane world." [he loved to mix a lot of Scripture phrases in his speaking, giving it an air of spirituality. After all, they called him god and "Dad" - he called himself God and Christ]. Jim Jones did not die with his people. He was shot later, his system full of drugs. He was dying of prostrate cancer. Many believe one of his mistresses shot him and then herself in a death agreement. It was his claim to fame - just as he wanted it. To be remembered in history. A true megalomaniac. Here is the transcript, in case you are interested. Please do not read it if it the topic disturbs you, it is quite awful and disturbing. http://employees.oneonta.edu/downinll/mass_suicide.htm |
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For many, the initial draw is the sense of labeling the hypocrisy and less than Christ like behaviors and attitudes one can find in any church or group of believers. The problem is, and what is lacking, is understanding and knowing the Scriptures well enough to know that these things are going to happen. We were warned Scripturally. There are always going to be those who pay lip service rather than heart service, those who are carnal versus those who walk in the Spirit and so on. The tactic is the proclamation that you don't want to be like "those" hypocrits, pagans, dead christians, etc. 
It's God's work ... 





And there's the mistake---they are following others to their destruction, instead of the Good Shepherd.



