Does the Holy Spirit have the same attributes...

[Emjesown]

(05-31-2009 03:34 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(05-31-2009 01:38 PM)Emjesown Wrote:  That leaves 1 problem to me, the body He showd Himself in, died and ressorected and went back to heaven.
So now there is 2 in heaven?
The invisseble God who is Spirit and the visseble God who has a glorified body.
That still puzzles me, since Jezus DID go back to heaven where He came from.
So i don t have all the answers, but in " my spirti" i do understand it, its jus difficult to put it in words .

EMJE

Excellent question!!! I can see where that is confusing. Perhaps if we understand that God is omnipresent that would help? In other words, Jesus is not separate from the Father in Heaven even though He might have a glorified body. Maybe "share" is a good way to look at this as well

What I find real interesting is this verse in Revelation:

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

So God and the Lamb occupy the Throne - hard to comprehend, but there it is

So now we have next to triunity , and oneness also 2-ness?
Just kidding

Another thought

I am Emje and i have a body that brings me everywhere
I have a spirit that is conected to God and to my body to tell it what to do and where to go
My soul is me:
my emotions, my feelings character, my soul is who i am
my spirit is invisseble
my soul you only meet when you have a relationship with me
my body you can see even before you have a relationship with me
and how i look will remind you of who i am (soul)
when i speak you hear my spirit speak
sometimes its myown thoughts and sometimes its God who you hear through my spirit..

We are made in His likeness!
3 parts of me is still me>>>EMJE

[Strefanash]

(05-31-2009 10:13 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  [quote='Strefanash' pid='2544' dateline='1243742110']



I

If the Holy Spirit IS God, then why the designation of "person"?

9020:

Strefanash:

to distinguish from those who maintain that the Holy Spirit of God (ie God) is ONLY a non personal FORCE or energy.

I was NEVER so crude as to think that a person was ONLY something with a body, two arms two legs, etc

No one can relate to a non personal energy.

Non personal energies do not communicate, do not judge, condemn or forgive

Our God is a personal God, by which i do not mean personal as in subjective to me, but personal as in having full personhood such that one can relate to Him and whereby our own personhood is made in His image.

I am not seekling to limit the Godhead to merely being our personhood and no more, but i am saying that as we are made in his image and this image is in the fact of our personhood, or personality, (and not in our bodies, I am no Mormon). God is the source of this therefore has at least a personality like ours as well as MUCH much more.

Sheep, do you think that the Holy Spirit is merely an energy field? Because this is what I hear whenever anyone questions the personhood of the Holy Spirit.

If not why the question?

---

Every attempt to understand the fact that God is three and one leads to heresy.

You say the Holy Spirit is not separate from God, But Jesus (God) prayed to the Father (God) and received the Spirit (God). THis was when he was baptized.

You are attempting to minimize the mystery by denying that the Spirit is in some sense separate from the Father. But then the Son is in some sense separate from the FAther also.

Yet the three are one. But they are three.

Try figuring out quantum physics where a particle can be in every place at once. it is easier

I can understand how the three are one, but then i am confronted with how the one is THREE

BTW I flatly reject the idea that I am made in the Image of God by being a trinity of body soul and spirit.

I did a study on this and found that as regards the human entity the words soul and spirit were essentially interchangeable as regards the entities they talked about.

When Jacob's emotions were profoundly stirred somewhere in Genesus it said his ruach was stirred, but ruach means spirit. Therefore the human spirit is capable of emotions also. SAo does man have two faculties of will and emotion? of course not, but the two words are more or less interechangeable.

I hold man is ONE, not three. an immaterial that somehow infuses matter, yet again we have a paradox, for modern science is monist (claiming that man is ONLY matter). THis is why i totally reject psychiatry

TWo verses appear to contradict this view of mine "God bless you body soul and spirit" and "the word of God . . penetrating to the division of soul and spirit"

but neither of these passages are about the nature of man, one is a salutation and the other about the word of God.

[sheep wrecked]

(05-31-2009 06:22 PM)Strefanash Wrote:  Sheep, do you think that the Holy Spirit is merely an energy field? Because this is what I hear whenever anyone questions the personhood of the Holy Spirit.

No, that is not what is "driving" my position or my questions. I do not see the Holy Spirit as a force or even as "a" power. Separating the Holy Spirit from God as a different function than God, is to sever God or split Him. His Spirit is Him. For instance, if I am cleaning the floor, I am exerting power or a force to move my arms and hands to clean. But that "force/power" is not separate from me. I can explain that it is the part of me that is doing the work, but it's still me. That is how I see the Holy Spirit working. Again, I believe God shows us an element of Himself by the designation of the "Holy Spirit", but they are one, they work as one.

Quote:You say the Holy Spirit is not separate from God, But Jesus (God) prayed to the Father (God) and received the Spirit (God). THis was when he was baptized.

Jesus was never without the Holy Spirit. He was conceived and born as God in flesh, with the Holy Spirit without measure. The Holy Spirit descended "like" a dove to show to the world that Jesus was the Son of God.

Jesus did not get baptized to receive the Holy Spirit - as the passage tells us - it was to fulfill righteousness.

Mat 3:13 Then comes Jesus from Galilee to Jordan to John, to be baptized of him.
Mat 3:14 But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of you, and come you to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said to him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becomes us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, see, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting on him:
Mat 3:17 And see a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Jesus prayed to the Father because He was in the flesh and was "subordinate" to Him as a man.

Quote:You are attempting to minimize the mystery by denying that the Spirit is in some sense separate from the Father. But then the Son is in some sense separate from the FAther also.

The Bible never designates a separateness. What I read it total unity. Yes the three ARE one as we see in 1 John:

1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

And I would agree that the Godhead is triune.

Quote:Try figuring out quantum physics where a particle can be in every place at once. it is easier

I can understand how the three are one, but then i am confronted with how the one is THREE

yep - physics would be simpler

I think that is a huge weakness in the "trinity" doctrine, because one is NOT three. Trinity means 3 in 1. The mystery of the Godhead is triune.

Quote:BTW I flatly reject the idea that I am made in the Image of God by being a trinity of body soul and spirit.

I did a study on this and found that as regards the human entity the words soul and spirit were essentially interchangeable as regards the entities they talked about.

I would totally agree with you on this one. I am not so crazy about that either for the same reason. Both the Hebrew and Greek interchange soul, spirit, and heart. Which reminds me, Jesus said this:

Mar 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength: this is the first commandment.



There goes that image of God theory right down the drain

Quote:TWo verses appear to contradict this view of mine "God bless you body soul and spirit" and "the word of God . . penetrating to the division of soul and spirit"

but neither of these passages are about the nature of man, one is a salutation and the other about the word of God.

I tend to think the phrase "God bless you body, soul, and spirit" is an expression of encompassing all of a person, not to categorize each part of them.

As for the "penetrating to the division of soul and spirit" - I find it interesting that man cannot divide, only God has the ability to scan our hearts daily for motive and intent.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened to the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

[sheep wrecked]

[Vic]

posts. But.... It would almost seem the initial question is although I won't mention particular names....

Although one can't really answer the question of whether the Holy Spirit or Jesus are Agents of God, unless one understands who the Holy Spirit and Christ are. So...are they Agents of God, in amongst all this discussion?

The answer appears to be NO by those who have posted...

Incidentally, if God can be perceived as a person--although we know He is Spirit, and Christ was manifest in the flesh and is a person...then it stands to reason that the Holy Spirit can be considered as a person in that context. Because they have the same attributes.

John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24. God is a Spirit : and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 14:20-22 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Notice that even the prophets of the Old Testament had the Spirit of Christ in them, which is also referred to as the Holy Spirit, which other verses also say is the Spirit of God.

1 Peter 1:9-13 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 10. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11. Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. 13. Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

2 Timothy 1:8-10 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9. Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10. But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Notice again that the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of Christ, which other verses also say is the Spirit of God.

Romans 8:9-14 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but have received the Spirit of adoption,whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Notice that the rivers of living water is the Holy Spirit which indwells believers, but which Jesus also referred to as being from Him..

John 7:38-39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14. But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Titus 3:4-6 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6. Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

[Strefanash]

I might view the Spirit as an agent of God is by this one did NOT deny his (the Spirit's) divinity.

I repeat, persons are persons as they possess personality. Physical bodies are IMO irrelevant to this. Therefore the Spirit is a person as is God. I am well aware that the latin "persona" means something quite different, but even so I hold my position

[sheep wrecked]

(06-02-2009 01:55 AM)Strefanash Wrote:  I might view the Spirit as an agent of God is by this one did NOT deny his (the Spirit's) divinity.

I repeat, persons are persons as they possess personality. Physical bodies are IMO irrelevant to this. Therefore the Spirit is a person as is God. I am well aware that the latin "persona" means something quite different, but even so I hold my position

As I had stated in my last post, our strength/power is not separate from us, how do you then see the agency of the Holy Spirit as a separate power or force from God?

For instance - Jesus' resurrection. Who resurrected Him? The Holy Spirit, God, or Jesus?