Is Hannukah Better Than Christmas?

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:It is wrong though to pretend that the Almighty instructed those before the messiah's coming to serve him one way and then miraculously after the messiah's death we don't have to observe the feasts, we don't have to observe the sabbath, we can eat whatever we want. The Almighty is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He changes not. That would also include how he wants us to serve him

Carl, the covenant was made with Israel ,they were made to be a light to the world and to show the nations what it means to be in a covenant relationship with God. At the same time this covenant would contain ceremonies and rituals that would teach people about sin, how it separates us from God, about justice and about how we can never by our own efforts make ourselves righteous.The people broke the covenant ,even though God was extremely patient and kept calling the people back to him. Instead of being the light to the nations they ended up sick in sins and bringing upon themselves all the curses oif the covenant.

So what is God to do? He provides a way out by making a new one, unlike the old and which guarantees that obedience. The new covenant wasn’t plan B in case plan a failed. God knew the people would break it but he prepared the way of salvation from the very beginning. The failing part of it was meant to teach us lessons also and to make us see how much we need a new circumcised heart.

How can you say God cannot save his people from a covenant that, due to the peoples failings, were making them incur curses repeatedly. If God had a plan why do you want to keep Him stuck there halfway through the plan and not let him proceed ?

As to God not changing in how he wants us to serve him I will say quote to you from Jesus words when he said, "Go and learn what this means, I desire mercy not sacrifice.."

Remember when Jesus said to the Samaritan woman

Joh 4:21 Jesus said unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour comes, when you shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 You worship you know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

God only wanted us for us to love and obey Him from the beginning, in sincerity, not out of duty but out of love.The two covenants illustrate, to me at least, the difference between doing things out of duty and to satisfy outward apppearances,while the heart was unwilling and hard and the difference between doing things joyfully,because you want to and not because there's laws that say you have to.

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:I don't consider myself Messianic however I see that the Torah and many of it's laws and statutes and ordinances are beneficial today.

Carl, I think everyone agrees with you that many of the commandments given in the OT are beneficial today.
Lets see we have What we know as the 613 which are the commandments God gave through Moses ,to give to the people to observe in the land which God had given them.That was the first covenant.

Then we have the books pertaining to what happened after ,from Joshua right through to the time of Jesus via the prophets and writings.

Messianics and also rabbinical Judaism have a tendency to focus on the first five books. Christians tend to look at the bigger picture and give a lot more focus and emphasis to the whole of the Old Testament.I think this is more consistent with the view that Jesus and the apostles took which treat the whole of the law and the prophets as one and not separate.

As Christians we look at the whole experience that Israel had throughout the whole OT as teaching and don’t limit it to obeying the commands legalistically and focusing just on the first five books.
Even though we don’t agree that we are bound to obey the entire system of ceremonial laws and the commandments to kill rebellious kids etc ,we still manage to learn from every single aspect of it.
As to them being beneficial today well, some obviously are in their literal context and some you know we cant do because theres no priesthood. Some like the animal related ones, can't be observed unless you are a farmer LOL, but even so we still apply their spiritual application.
So some are beneficial today since what we are obeying is the law in a spiritual sense. For example, lets take the commandment to not muzzle an ox while its treading the grain.
In the NT we see Paul uses it and applies its principle spiritually to people. So Paul is not following the letter of the law but the spiritual application of the commandment.


I see that messianic Judaism is very similar to rabbinic Judaism in the respect that they focus too much on first five books and neglect the prophets and writings.I also see the people tend to almost idolize the words given to Moses by God and then fail to realise that the words of the prophets were also given to the prophets by God. The prophets reveal to us God's heart, His feelings, His emotions. By that same token the words of Jesus were also the words of God.
So why this hang up on Moses? I don't understand it .

[strefanash]

(12-15-2008 10:06 PM)Vic Wrote:  Open Discussion. What do you think?

It depends on the motive of the participant. I do not hold that symbols have eternal unchanging meaning that is absolute (ie totally independent of any perception by any of us). And i certainly do not believe that view which says that Satan stays with his symbols (which is what I take to be a piece of superstitous bigotry I heard from a seventh day adventist preacher once).

If I tend to ignore christmas it is not out of religious or moral objection. It is just that I cant be bothered running around like a mad thing for merely one day. And, as much of christmas is make believe, I cant see it is aworth the effort.

Also the expectation that one should be happy on this day of the year is simply too poignant for me, as is what seems to me to be there desperate attempt to conjure this up.

In other words if you can joyfully and sincerely celebrate christmas as the birth of Christ then you have the liberty to do so

Incidentally the most despicable grinches of all time were the puritans who sought to outlaw christmas during that loathsome republic of theirs they set up after murdering their lawful King in 1649. I am not against other people revelling, even if it is only out of self indulgence, and neither is it any of my business if many go to church on christmas, whether it be the once a year token gesture or part of their churchgoing personal lives. But of course, as Calvin's Geneva showed, Puritans were never keen on minding their own business

If they thought the Law of God could or should be enforced by civil and judicial force then they had completely rejected the gospel of christ and I regard them as one of the more egregious counterfeits of all time

[Vic]

(12-23-2008 11:41 PM)carl37 Wrote:  This is probably the best way to discern about Christmas anyway. Suppose you are driving down the street and you pass your pastor or a known pastor's house and it is decorated with lights and you can see the decorated christmas tree in the window. You drive down the street further and you see the house of someone you know doesn't go to church and has on several occasions had law enforcement at his house for alcohol related incidents. The house is decorated with lights and you can see the decorated christmas tree in the window. Or you can just pass by a house that you know the people living there don't go to church or believe in "God" or even drink for that matter. The lights are strung up and there again is the decorated tree in the window. Where is the difference? Believers are to be set-apart. One can say "Well I celebrate "Christ's" birth that day and that's not what it means to me. I don't think that is what Yahweh had in mind. Isn't it strange that most of the christian denominations in America are only to eager to celebrate christmas, easter and the like. Where are the observances of the feasts and ordinances the great I AM ordained and decreed to be observed forever in Leviticus? I hope I have offended no one. That is not my intention. My intention is to remind people that Yeshua observed the feasts. He didn't do away with them with the new testament. He didn't teach from the new testament. It wasn't nailed to the cross. Yeshua was trying to return the people to the ordinances, statutes, laws and instruction given after the Exodus from Egypt.

Hi Carl, welcome to the forum. I see you have been doing a lot of posting. I'm a wee bit behind on posting so to catch up--here goes.

You gave some scenarios re Christmas. However I would like to give you some different scenarios to consider.

"

Quote: you pass your pastor or a known pastor's house and it is decorated with lights and you can see the decorated christmas tree in the window.

You peek in the window, and there, you see the family beginning to pray, having just read

Isaiah 7:14
(14) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
and Isaiah 9:6-7
(6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(7) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

And then they turned to Matthew 1--and read for the children 1:18-25-2:2; and
and then turned to Luke 1:26-35
(26) And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
(27) To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
(28) And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
(29) And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
(30) And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
(31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
(32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
(33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
(34) Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
(35) And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Then the family sang praises to God concerning Christ--like Joy to the World, Silent Night, Hark the Herald Angels Sing, and then they prayed...and Thanked Almighty God for sending His Son Jesus Christ in the form of a baby, to grow and be the final sacrifice for sin. Praise God.

Quote:"You drive down the street further and you see the house of someone you know doesn't go to church and has on several occasions had law enforcement at his house for alcohol related incidents. The house is decorated with lights and you can see the decorated christmas tree in the window. "

And you wonder if anyone has ever shared Christ with them and wonder if you should find a way to get to know them, in order to offer comfort, peace and the joy of Christ.

And then you drive by a house with what appears to be a Christmas tree and a star of david, and the tree is decorated with lites the same as other Christmas trees, and you see presents and focus on the people...not Christ. And they focus on the traditions of men instead of rejoicing in the truth of Jesus Christ and their witness is missing... they celebrate Hannukah instead of Christ...

Quote: "Or you can just pass by a house that you know the people living there don't go to church or believe in "God" or even drink for that matter. The lights are strung up and there again is the decorated tree in the window. Where is the difference?"

The difference Carl is in the heart and the purposes which is what God looks at. You on the other hand are looking and judging according to appearance and what you perceive to be evil or worldly. If each one of those scenarios---if you met those people--who would you say is living for God and serving Him---based solely on those scenarios?


James 2:1-5
(1) My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
(2) For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
(3) And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
(4) Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
(5) Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

And Carl we haven't had a tree in years, but for family who do--we do not condemn or disassociate with them...it's a non issue. What we pray -regardless of who it is-- is that we can be a witness to others about Christ, about serving Him and obedience to Him and His word. And with or without a Christmas tree--that witness is there...good or bad...

Rom 14:4-9
(4) Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.[/b]
(5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
(6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
(7) For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
(8) For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
(9) For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

[sheep wrecked]

Now that Christmas is after the fact, my thoughts are not particularly gracious

I will subject you for a few moments to my own personal "vent".



The presents are opened; the food is all gone
Christmas is over - another day has dawned
I wonder as I wander through clutter and mess
Just how all this stuff makes our Savior so blessed.

Perhaps my bah humbug is unjustly quite glum
But all the tradition just makes my heart run.
Christmas is fine if you stick with Christ's birth,
But why presents, and lights and all this fake mirth?

Hark the herald angels sing,
Glory to the Newborn King.
Round the manger so still and so small
God's gift to men - in a lowly stall.

No parties and lights, no presents galore
I pause as I think of how much we ignore.
We say it's for Christ and think of His manger,
But all the other stuff makes it quite stranger

Not much I can do, but sigh in relief
Christmas is over and all it's motif
Joy and peace to all in Jesus may be found
For in Him alone, does love and grace abound.

[DarkGlass1312]

Christ-mass is most likely a pagan "holy day" also known as "holiday". So is Valentine's Day, Easter, and Halloween, although in the 1500s Ester (not a spelling error) was actually another name for Passover, which was coined by William Tyndale. So back then Easter was differently used, but now we're back to ancient pagan practices. I guess the question about Christmas and the pagan holy days is this: Why should we celebrate them? Celebrate Christ everyday, and do not go a whoring after false gods like everybody else. We may be living in this world, but we shouldn't be a part of it.

[sheep wrecked]

(01-02-2009 11:18 AM)DarkGlass1312 Wrote:  Christ-mass is most likely a pagan "holy day" also known as "holiday". So is Valentine's Day, Easter, and Halloween, although in the 1500s Ester (not a spelling error) was actually another name for Passover, which was coined by William Tyndale. So back then Easter was differently used, but now we're back to ancient pagan practices. I guess the question about Christmas and the pagan holy days is this: Why should we celebrate them? Celebrate Christ everyday, and do not go a whoring after false gods like everybody else. We may be living in this world, but we shouldn't be a part of it.

Please explain what you mean that "now we're back to ancient pagan practices"

[Peter]

(12-15-2008 10:06 PM)Vic Wrote:  Open Discussion. What do you think?

History is such a neglected discipline today and yet you really can not understand what God has to teach you without some understanding of history. Today we live in a world of value relativism. The people of this world just go about doing whatever seems right in their own eyes. But the God that bought you never desired it to be this way for you:

"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue: And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring: That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God. I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God." Num 15:37-41.

For those who are still not sure about the righteousness of celebrating Christmas I give you this challenge - Find just one single verse anywhere in all 66 books of the Bible that instructs you, as a born again believer, to celebrate Christmas.

... Can't find one? Well then what IS the origin of Christmas? If it is not from Moses, the Prophets, from Yeshua, or from the NT Apostles then from whom do we get this teaching to celebrate Christmas?

I provide the following exerpt from a recent post at ft111. This serves to illustrate the origins of Christmas in a very brief way. I urge the diligent student of the Scriptures to do your own in depth study:

"During the early centuries following the time when the gospels were written the Church (the Body of True believers) underwent terrible persecution from pagan Rome, just as was prophesied by Christ and by the Holy Spirit through the firsts apostles, and by the Old Testament prophets. Why? Because they followed closely the instructions of Christ about worship (acceptable Christian living) in a world who’s prince is satan (John 14:30). But when the Roman Emperors found that persecution just increased the strength of the Church they had to devise a new tactic to overcome them. In 312AD Emperor Constantine passed the ‘Edict of Toleration’ declaring that it was no longer a crime to be Christian and what followed was an adaptation of the Christian beliefs into pagan Rome. A sort of a un-holy marriage between ‘the church’ and the world resulting in a ‘christianizing’ of the Roman Empire. Thus Roman Catholicism was born. This enticed pagan Romans to convert to ‘christianity’ without losing their own pagan winter celebrations (sounds like salvation without repentance doesn’t it?). Most of the important ‘gods’in the cults of Ishtar (from which we get the word Easter) and Mithra (having their origins in ancient Babylon) had their birthdays on December 25th. Various Christmas traditions such as the Mistletoe, the Wassail bowl, the Yule log, and the Christmas tree have been adopted from pagan winter festivals. The earliest mention of ‘christians’ celebrating on the 25th December was found on a Roman calendar dated 354AD and the word ‘Christmas’ itself only makes an appearance for the first time in 1038AD.

Christ never taught his disciples to celebrate his birthday. Nowhere can we find evidence that the apostles ever celebrated the birth of Christ. Throughout the scriptures, however, we are repeatedly taught to commemorate His death (Passover Ex 12; 1 Cor 5:7-8) and resurrection (Firstfruits Ex 12; 1 Cor 15:20). We are also taught to celebrate the harvest of souls (Pentecost Ex34:22; Acts 2:1; Acts 20:16). Yes, we are surely free from the burden of the Law (1 Cor 15:56-57) for Christ’s blood has covered our guilt and paid our debt, but our new burden is our love for the Law (Jer 31:33; Heb 10:16) and our continuing desire to conform to it (Psalm 119) for it is the likeness of Christ (John 5:46). Do I mean that we should be following ordinances for temple sacrifice too? Yes! But not the slaughter of bulls and goats and lambs, for they were the foreshadow of a better way established by God through Christ who’s High Priestly duties are effectual for the covering of sins and the cleansing of the heart, whereas the blood of animals was not. Do you not know that YOU are the Temple, the dwelling place of the Holy Ghost, the place of acceptable worship? When the Holy Spirit begins to reveal this Truth to you, you will have a sense of understanding of the scriptures that you have never experienced before. Every detail of the Torah, every place name, every description, speaks of none other than Jesus Christ. Do not be ignorant of this one thing brethren – Christ and the first apostles preached the Gospel from the old testament (specifically the Septuagint). Paul preached the Gospel in Berea and they searched the scriptures (the old testament) daily to verify that what he was preaching was the Truth (Acts 17:11)."

May the God and Father of our Lord and Saviour, Yeshua, truly set you free through a knowledge of the Truth.

Bless you.

Peter.

[sheep wrecked]

(03-25-2009 01:57 AM)Peter Wrote:  "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue: And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring: That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God. I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God." Num 15:37-41.

My question would be, if under the New Covenant [which is not like the old covenant], the "Law" is written on one's heart by the Holy Spirit, then why would one need tzitzit to remind them of it?

Quote:For those who are still not sure about the righteousness of celebrating Christmas I give you this challenge - Find just one single verse anywhere in all 66 books of the Bible that instructs you, as a born again believer, to celebrate Christmas.

For those who continue to celebrate the feasts of the old covenant, my question is - give me just one verse in the NT that says a believer is supposed to observe the feasts under the New Covenant?

Quote:"During the early centuries following the time when the gospels were written the Church (the Body of True believers) underwent terrible persecution from pagan Rome, just as was prophesied by Christ and by the Holy Spirit through the firsts apostles, and by the Old Testament prophets. Why? Because they followed closely the instructions of Christ about worship (acceptable Christian living) in a world who’s prince is satan (John 14:30). But when the Roman Emperors found that persecution just increased the strength of the Church they had to devise a new tactic to overcome them. In 312AD Emperor Constantine passed the ‘Edict of Toleration’ declaring that it was no longer a crime to be Christian and what followed was an adaptation of the Christian beliefs into pagan Rome. A sort of a un-holy marriage between ‘the church’ and the world resulting in a ‘christianizing’ of the Roman Empire. Thus Roman Catholicism was born. This enticed pagan Romans to convert to ‘christianity’ without losing their own pagan winter celebrations (sounds like salvation without repentance doesn’t it?). Most of the important ‘gods’in the cults of Ishtar (from which we get the word Easter) and Mithra (having their origins in ancient Babylon) had their birthdays on December 25th. Various Christmas traditions such as the Mistletoe, the Wassail bowl, the Yule log, and the Christmas tree have been adopted from pagan winter festivals. The earliest mention of ‘christians’ celebrating on the 25th December was found on a Roman calendar dated 354AD and the word ‘Christmas’ itself only makes an appearance for the first time in 1038AD.

I think your history reflects a "Messianic" bias. Having spent a great deal of time researching history, the conclusions that you have come to are "stacked" against Christianity. If one really looks at historical documentation, one will discover that "gentileness" was incorporated into believers in the NT and beyond. If it was God's intent for people to remain "Jewishly" minded in regard to the Gospel, no one would have been able to take that away. Instead, we read in the NT that ethnicity has nothing to do with the Gospel. This is the mystery that Paul spoke of - that the Gentiles would come into Christ along with all other nations. It's not about being Jewish or "Christian" ------- it's about being IN Christ.

Quote: Do I mean that we should be following ordinances for temple sacrifice too? Yes! But not the slaughter of bulls and goats and lambs, for they were the foreshadow of a better way established by God through Christ who’s High Priestly duties are effectual for the covering of sins and the cleansing of the heart, whereas the blood of animals was not.

I am not sure I understand this. How can one follow the ordinances of the Temple without doing the sacrifices? That would be old covenant - Levitical Priesthood. Now we are under Jesus Christ who is the order of the High Priest Melchezidek, not born from Aaron. A change in the priesthood means a change in the sacrifice. As you noted, we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit - there is no need for sacrifices as Jesus paid them all, once and for all.

Quote:Do not be ignorant of this one thing brethren – Christ and the first apostles preached the Gospel from the old testament (specifically the Septuagint). Paul preached the Gospel in Berea and they searched the scriptures (the old testament) daily to verify that what he was preaching was the Truth (Acts 17:11)."

Jesus and the disciples did not preach or quote from the Septuagint. We do not have an accurate LXX to compare. The LXX has undergone 4 recentions - none of which compare favorably to each other. Not only that, Emmanuel Tov of Israel who was in charge of the Dead Sea Scrolls and who is a Hebrew and Greek Scholar, compared the DSS LXX with the available LXX today. What he found was about an 8% accuracy level with the DSS. The bottom line is that Jesus and the disciples did not quote the LXX, but the scholars view the LXX of today as being "smoothed" to reflect the Greek NT.

[Vic]

Hi There

I should likely have cross referenced this thread with the one found in the Messianic section. It might further enhance the discussion.

Is Hannukah Better Than Christmas?

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.p...=35&page=1