Is Hannukah Better Than Christmas?

[Vic]

With Hanukkah and Christmas just around the corner, I have finally posted the articles dealing with these issues. Hanukkah is promoted by HR and Messianics over and instead of "pagan Christmas."

http://www.seekgod.ca/index.htm > you can see the new list of articles which include the following Myths

Myth. Jesus celebrated Hannukah not Christmas, and we should be celebrating Channukah instead of pagan Christmas.

Myth. Hanukkah commemorates the miracle of the oil and the victory of the Maccabees over the Gentile rule and should be celebrated by those in Hebrew Roots or Messianics instead of pagan Christmas.

Myth. God ordained Hanukkah and it is Scriptural, therefore Messianics and Christians should celebrate it instead of Christmas. The ceremonies are found in the Scriptures.

Myth: The Hanukkah Menorah with nine candles symbolizes Christ and therefore all Messianics and Christians should be celebrating Hanukkah instead of pagan Christmas.

Myth. Christians believe Christmas is Jesus' birthday.

Or go to > Topichr >Hebrew Roots FAQS & Myths >
section > Sacrifices, Feasts, Celebrations > http://www.seekgod.ca/topichr.htm#faq3

[SheitlQueen]

Quote:Is Christmas a Christian Holiday or is it Pagan

Chanukah and Christmas are two totally different holidays, so I don't know how they
can even be compared.

Do I personally think Christmas is pagan? Not in the least, and I am tired of Messianics
who try to find the pagan origin of Christianity and it's holidays and beliefs.
Chanukah celebrates Jewish history, and gentile Messianics have no connection to it.
It's not mentioned in the Torah, nor is how to observe it mentioned in the scriptures.

Anyone who tries to belittle Christianity by claiming it has pagan roots is very insecure
in their own faith.

[YYZ Skinhead]

At least the Worldwide Church of God overlooked this one when they would observe "Jewish holidays" (I am sort of surprised they did).

[Benny]

a) I thought this post was about Chanukah or Christmas?
If that is the case, then consider the origins of each: Chanukah is connected to the maccabean revolt; aside from the 'law' aspect of this observance, which any religious jew will tell you is d'rabbanan [rabbinic], it contains many beautiful lessons, as well as teach us certain key principles in Torah Observance. One such principle is that of pikuach nefesh- yes, there are certain things that do supersede Shabbat when it comes to saving a life. On a little different note, we understand from Chanukah the lesson that it is better to violate one Shabbat in order to live to see another. Again, it is a rule of exception. It also teaches that sometimes you have to take up the sword and fight for G-d, and no, this does not simply mean fighting 'spiritually'. Yes, one needs to get themselves right with G-d; but don't sit there expecting miracles to save your life. Many Jews died in the time of the Maccabees because of such an approach. Any way, the sources are out there concerning Hanukah's lessons, do online search.

As concerns Christmas...it was a catholic attempt to draw in the idolaters observance of Saturnalia to the rule of the church, from what I researched many years ago. It is DEFINITELY NOT the day J-sus was born...study shows that the festival of Sukkot/tabernacles was the time of his birth. The christmas tree/Asheirah was thing of contempt to G-d back in the time of the Temple; do you think G-d changed his mind?
I find it interesting that as much as Christianity loathes traditional Catholic religious practices, many are loathe to give up the 'fun' observances. I would appreciate an answer why?


[part b is being addressed in a new thread entitled > Understanding from fundamentalist view or as Jesus taught? > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=780 > Please direct all comments there for part b. Thanks Vic]
b) concerning the observance or lack thereof of Torah...many are fundamentalist in their reading.....[edited by Vic]

I honestly want to understand this second point, because it honestly doesn't make sense to me.

Be well all, and seek G-d with all your heart.

[Vic]

Hi Benny

Chanukah, yes, is a result of the Maccabean revolt, and is strictly for those in Judaism. It has nothing to do with Christians nor do any of the ceremonies etc have anything to do with Christ. It celebrates the Jewish people, and for them are instilled many teachings, just as you have said.

However, Christmas is a different story. We know the true story of Jesus being born was first prophesied in the OT and then recorded in the gospels as the event took place of the birth of God's only begotten Son. Proclaiming that truth, took place from the moment it is discussed in the Gospels. In other words, people talked about the birth of Christ and what it meant prophetically and then as His life ministry unfolded. It didn't just get talked about with the catholic church.

Next the issue of Christmas trees which some attempt to associate with the paganism of Asheirah. Absolutely, the paganism of Asheirah and other false gods was dealt with many times in the OT. A clear warning to not follow false gods and idols. Asherah is meaning the groves--groves of trees in themselves not being evil-- and the worship of Astarte/Ashtoroth etc. Sacred trees or poles were set up in groves for this false worship. However. The asherah pole was not a tree with all the limbs intact. It was a tree with all the limbs removed and a carving made of the false deity. Somewhat like a totem pole but usually with a figure of the false deity carved in it. Israel was found to have been snared into that false worship at times and the issue is addressed in 1 & 2 Kings, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Judges, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, 2 Chronicles, Psalms etc..

Some specifically use Jeremiah 10 as the 'proof' it is a Christmas tree being warned against. But, if one reads the context starting even in chapter 9, it is clear that Israel was being rebuked for not following God and instead had learned the way of the heathen, had become watchers of the heavens instead of obedient to God. It goes into the ways of the heathen of making false gods from trees, and the workman forming the image of the false deity, adding silver and gold onto it and with nails make it so it can stand and not fall over, but in the end, this false god cannot speak, cannot move without being picked up and carried by the worshippers. Other Scriptures speak of these idols being transported with and by the people. God was saying they could neither do evil or good, because they weren't real. Another Scripture addressing these false gods:

Psa 115:4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
Psa 115:5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
Psa 115:6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
Psa 115:7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
Psa 115:8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

No Christmas tree that I have ever seen is like these. None. And I have never seen a Christian bow down and worship a Christmas tree. As mentioned throughout this thread, people celebrate Christmas in different ways but for those who belong to Jesus Christ, it is a time to proclaim the birth of our Lord and Savior--which is Scriptural--, and all that means, including the fulfillment of prophecy. I think each person must make a decision as to what the celebration involves. Personally, we don't do the glitz. I see no need of it, and there are better ways to utilize our resources. That doesn't mean I condemn those that follow traditions of trees and lights and make a real celebration of it. To me it's about proclaiming Christ.

[Rose of Shushan]

Hi Ben nice to meet you!
I was wanting to comment on what you said about Sukkot being the time of Jesus' Birth. The thing is we don't know for sure when His birth was and any christian over the age of 7 or 8 knows that Jesus was not born around Christmas time.Or maybe He was...we just do not know.
When you say that studies show that are you referring to the whole thing about when John the Baptist was conceived and then calculating it from there? If so that is just mere speculation as we have no idea when Elizabeth conceived and more importantly the conception had nothing to do with normal fertility cycles since Elizabeth was both old and barren.If it hadnt been for the miracle no conception would have taken place when Zecharias was home from Temple leave since they were old and she had been barren anyway.

Luk 1:7 And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years.

Luk 1:18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.

Therefore this birth was also miraculous as was also the births of the children of Abraham and Sarah and other OT figures.

[Dee]

"Giving presents, made up games( dreidel, feast of the lights, 9 arm menorah(pan god related and wicca's)
is therefor the same as christmas what they (who celebrate chanuka) reject as being pagan.
Rabbi's added alot imo"


Hi; Can you direct me to a link for this: "9 arm menorah pan god related wicca". I am scroogling it, but only come up with this forum. I would like to see where the 9-arm menorah is related to paganism. Thanks.

[Vic]

(11-18-2011 07:52 PM)Dee Wrote:  "Giving presents, made up games( dreidel, feast of the lights, 9 arm menorah(pan god related and wicca's)
is therefor the same as christmas what they (who celebrate chanuka) reject as being pagan.
Rabbi's added alot imo"


Hi; Can you direct me to a link for this: "9 arm menorah pan god related wicca". I am scroogling it, but only come up with this forum. I would like to see where the 9-arm menorah is related to paganism. Thanks.

HI Dee, the information can be found in the article The Legend of Hanukkah > http://www.seekgod.ca/topicsymbols.htm#inroads > http://www.seekgod.ca/legend.htm

Hope that helps.

[Mark_R]

(03-04-2011 01:31 PM)Vic Wrote:   Hi Benny

Chanukah, yes, is a result of the Maccabean revolt, and is strictly for those in Judaism. It has nothing to do with Christians nor do any of the ceremonies etc have anything to do with Christ. It celebrates the Jewish people, and for them are instilled many teachings, just as you have said.

However, Christmas is a different story. We know the true story of Jesus being born was first prophesied in the OT and then recorded in the gospels as the event took place of the birth of God's only begotten Son. Proclaiming that truth, took place from the moment it is discussed in the Gospels. In other words, people talked about the birth of Christ and what it meant prophetically and then as His life ministry unfolded. It didn't just get talked about with the catholic church.

Next the issue of Christmas trees which some attempt to associate with the paganism of Asheirah. Absolutely, the paganism of Asheirah and other false gods was dealt with many times in the OT. A clear warning to not follow false gods and idols. Asherah is meaning the groves--groves of trees in themselves not being evil-- and the worship of Astarte/Ashtoroth etc. Sacred trees or poles were set up in groves for this false worship. However. The asherah pole was not a tree with all the limbs intact. It was a tree with all the limbs removed and a carving made of the false deity. Somewhat like a totem pole but usually with a figure of the false deity carved in it. Israel was found to have been snared into that false worship at times and the issue is addressed in 1 & 2 Kings, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Judges, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, 2 Chronicles, Psalms etc..

Some specifically use Jeremiah 10 as the 'proof' it is a Christmas tree being warned against. But, if one reads the context starting even in chapter 9, it is clear that Israel was being rebuked for not following God and instead had learned the way of the heathen, had become watchers of the heavens instead of obedient to God. It goes into the ways of the heathen of making false gods from trees, and the workman forming the image of the false deity, adding silver and gold onto it and with nails make it so it can stand and not fall over, but in the end, this false god cannot speak, cannot move without being picked up and carried by the worshippers. Other Scriptures speak of these idols being transported with and by the people. God was saying they could neither do evil or good, because they weren't real. Another Scripture addressing these false gods:

Psa 115:4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
Psa 115:5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
Psa 115:6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
Psa 115:7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
Psa 115:8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

No Christmas tree that I have ever seen is like these. None. And I have never seen a Christian bow down and worship a Christmas tree. As mentioned throughout this thread, people celebrate Christmas in different ways but for those who belong to Jesus Christ, it is a time to proclaim the birth of our Lord and Savior--which is Scriptural--, and all that means, including the fulfillment of prophecy. I think each person must make a decision as to what the celebration involves. Personally, we don't do the glitz. I see no need of it, and there are better ways to utilize our resources. That doesn't mean I condemn those that follow traditions of trees and lights and make a real celebration of it. To me it's about proclaiming Christ.

Vic you say Christians don't bow down to a Christmas tree. I would say in fact you do. Every time you bend over to grab a present you are inadvertently bowing down to that tree.
Why is it that Christians simply can't understand , or rather just plain refuse, to either want to give up this clearly Pagan influenced holiday season or just do some honest research on it's origin ?
I mean seriously? The thought that "hey, we're Christians, we can use any holiday we want to celebrate Jesus". Actually no you can't. Our King is in fact the King. And as the King HE would be the one to tell us what we can and can not celebrate in HIS Kingdom. How arrogant of anyone to thing they can just add any holiday they want and call it anything they want or in this case just go ahead and model it after a pagan influenced celebration.
Concidor this information:
In 1990, the Solon, Ohio (a Cleveland suburb) school board banned all nativity and other Christmas scenes on any school property because they felt it violated the separation of church and state. They were challenged in court when outraged parents opposed them, feeling that Christmas was being stolen from their children and the community. The board lost the case! The citizenry had contended that Christmas was a worldwide tradition that was not part of, and transcended, religion. It was deemed to be secular—a part of virtually all cultures worldwide.
The court decision affirmed that Christmas has no Christian roots! However, the court’s opinion also noted that Bible reading and prayer obviously are associated with Christianity—a remarkable admission! The court concluded that Christmas-keeping and manger scenes could remain because they are not really part of either Christianity or religion—but prayer and Bible reading, which are, must remain excluded from schools!
The Encyclopedia Americana, 1956 edition, adds, “Christmas…was not observed in the first centuries of the Christian church, since the Christian usage in general was to celebrate the death of remarkable persons rather than their birth…a feast was established in memory of this event [Christ’s birth] in the 4th century. In the 5th century the Western church ordered the feast to be celebrated on the day of the Mithraic rites of the birth of the sun and at the close of the Saturnalia, as no certain knowledge of the day of Christ’s birth existed.”
It was 300 years after Christ before the Roman church kept Christmas, and not until the fifth century that it was mandated to be kept throughout the empire as an official festival honoring “Christ.”
According to Langer’s Encyclopedia of World History, (article “Santa”), “Santa” was a common name for Nimrod throughout Asia Minor. This was also the same fire god who came down the chimneys of the ancient pagans and the same fire god to whom infants were burned and eaten in human sacrifice among those who were once God’s people.
Today Santa Claus comes from “Saint Nicholas.” Washington Irving, in 1809, is responsible for remaking the original old, stern bishop of this same name into the new “jolly St. Nick” in his Knickerbocker History of New York. (Most of the rest of America’s Christmas traditions are even more recent than this.) “Old Nick” has long been recognized as a term for the devil.
“An old Babylonish fable told of an evergreen tree which sprang out of a dead tree stump. The old stump symbolized the dead Nimrod, the new evergreen tree symbolized that Nimrod had come to life again in Tammuz! Among the Druids the oak was sacred, among the Egyptians it was the palm, and in Rome it was the fir, which was decorated with red berries during the Saturnalia!” (Walsh, Curiosities of Popular Customs, p. 242).
Frederick J. Haskin’s book Answers to Questions states, “The Christmas tree is from Egypt, and its origin dates from a period long anterior to the Christian Era.”
The God of the Bible commands that His worshippers “must worship Him in spirit and in truth” (John 4:23-24). This does not mesh with the great Christmas and Santa Claus lies that all children so willingly believe.
Jesus said twice, in Matthew 7:16 and 20, that “you shall know them by their fruits.” Everything that people say or do, good or bad, has fruits. The fruits of Christmas are terrible. Christmas is about getting for the self—and pure commercialism. This season leads the entire year in adultery, loneliness, jealousy, drunkenness and drunk driving, family arguments (and worse), and accumulation of debt that often lasts until March. This problem is so significant that almost all churches report that their incomes drop during this period as people “recover” from all their spending! How ironic.

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:Jesus said twice, in Matthew 7:16 and 20, that “you shall know them by their fruits.” Everything that people say or do, good or bad, has fruits. The fruits of Christmas are terrible. Christmas is about getting for the self—and pure commercialism. This season leads the entire year in adultery, loneliness, jealousy, drunkenness and drunk driving, family arguments (and worse), and accumulation of debt that often lasts until March. This problem is so significant that almost all churches report that their incomes drop during this period as people “recover” from all their spending! How ironic.

Wise words about knowing people by their fruits.
I cannot agree with the rest of your post though and am guessing we look at things from different perspectives.Christmas has also many good fruits.These include increased giving to charities and to good causes.Even people that aren't christians get softened by more good will at this time of year and tend to act more magnanimously at this time of year.Shame it doesn't last the rest of the year LOL.
The negative points you mentioned seemed to occur more among those who aren't actually christian but use the holiday for a chance to celebrate and be festive.
I do agree that Christmas can be a lonely time for those who have no-one but actually it may be during Christmas that the lonely people benefit from the increased goodwill, visiting etc that goes on around that time.
The sadness associated with the season usually occurs due to missing loved ones who are no longer with us.This happens in every significant holiday be it Passover, Christmas etc
Seeing as you are so against the world celebrating Christsmas would you rather that no-one celebrated it at all?