Is Hannukah Better Than Christmas?

[Vic]

Mark wrote

Quote:Vic you say Christians don't bow down to a Christmas tree. I would say in fact you do. Every time you bend over to grab a present you are inadvertently bowing down to that tree.

Really Mark? Does that mean that every time I bend down and pull out a dust bunny from underneath my bed or couch, I am in fact bowing down to either that piece of furniture or the dust bunny god? Obviously those dust bunnies are a real gift, are they not, because I didn't make them....

If you bend down and pick something off the floor in your bathroom Mark, are you worshipping your toilet?

To clarify what worshipping something including God means and, is defined as in the Scriptures:

Exo 34:14 For thou shalt worship H7812 no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

worship H7812

The Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon > http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=07812

Strong's Number: 7812 hx#
Original Word Word Origin
hx# a primitive root
Transliterated Word
Shachah
Phonetic Spelling
shaw-khaw'
Parts of Speech
Verb
Definition
1)to bow down
a)(Qal) to bow down
b)(Hiphil) to depress (fig)
c)(Hithpael)
1.to bow down, prostrate oneself 1c
d)before superior in homage 1c
e)before God in worship 1c
f)before false gods 1c
g)before angel

Translated Words
KJV (172) - bow, 31; bow down, 18; crouch, 1; fall down, 3; misc, 3; obeisance, 9; reverence, 5; stoop, 1; themselves, 2; worship, 99;

Copyright Statement
The Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon is Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius Lexicon; this is keyed to the "Theological Word Book of the Old Testament." These files are considered public domain.

worship H7812
שׁחה
shâchâh
BDB Definition:
1) to bow down
1a) (Qal) to bow down
1b) (Hiphil) to depress (figuratively)
1c) (Hithpael)
1c1) to bow down, prostrate oneself
1c1a) before superior in homage
1c1b) before God in worship
1c1c) before false gods
1c1d) before angel
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2360

Strong's > worship
H7812
שׁחה
shâchâh
shaw-khaw'
A primitive root; to depress, that is, prostrate (especially reflexively in homage to royalty or God): - bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance, do reverence, make to stoop, worship.

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship G4352 the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Strong's >worship G4352

G4352
προσκυνέω
proskuneō
pros-koo-neh'-o
From G4314 and probably a derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): - worship.

reverence
Psa 89:7 God is greatly to be feared H6206 in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence H3372 of all them that are about him.

reverence H3372

H3372
ירא
yârê'
BDB Definition:
1) to fear, revere, be afraid
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to fear, be afraid
1a2) to stand in awe of, be awed
1a3) to fear, reverence, honour, respect
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be fearful, be dreadful, be feared
1b2) to cause astonishment and awe, be held in awe
1b3) to inspire reverence or godly fear or awe
1c) (Piel) to make afraid, terrify
2) (TWOT) to shoot, pour
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 907, 908

feared

H6206
ערץ
‛ârats
BDB Definition:
1) to tremble, dread, fear, oppress, prevail, break, be terrified, cause to tremble
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to cause to tremble, terrify
1b2) to tremble, feel dread
1b) (Niphal) to be awesome, be terrible
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to regard or treat with awe, regard or treat as awful
1c2) to inspire with awe, terrify
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root

Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence G127 and godly fear:G2124

reverence G127

Strong's G127
αἰδώς
aidōs
ahee-doce'
Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492 (through the idea of downcast eyes); bashfulness, that is, (towards men), modesty or (towards God) awe: - reverence, shamefacedness.

godly fear: G2124

Strong's G2124
εὐλάβεια
eulabeia
yoo-lab'-i-ah
From G2126; properly caution, that is, (religiously) reverence (piety); by implication dread (concretely): - fear (-ed).

I know of no Christian that bows down and worships a tree. Unless, there are churches who do bow down, give reverence or fear/dread to trees in their services and believe them to be God or a god. And I am thinking if there are some, that means they aren't a christian church to begin with. So unless there is some provable documentation to the contrary, the false accusation and myth of Christians worshipping trees as part of that false worship, is totally busted. God knows the heart intents.

Psa 115:4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
Psa 115:5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
Psa 115:6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
Psa 115:7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
Psa 115:8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

Psa 135:15 The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
Psa 135:16 They have mouths, but they speak not; eyes have they, but they see not;
Psa 135:17 They have ears, but they hear not; neither is there any breath in their mouths.
Psa 135:18 They that make them are like unto them: so is every one that trusteth in them.

Hab 2:18 What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?
Hab 2:19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.

Do you believe those things are real, have any power, any wisdom, any knowledge, anything to offer anyone, Mark?

If not, why are you promoting it all as if they do? They are nothing. They aren't worth the time discussing because they are non existent. At least to those who know Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
Col 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

[Vic]

Mark wrote

Quote:Our King is in fact the King. And as the King HE would be the one to tell us what we can and can not celebrate in HIS Kingdom. How arrogant of anyone to thing they can just add any holiday they want and call it anything they want or in this case just go ahead and model it after a pagan influenced celebration.

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
....Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

Quote:...The court concluded that Christmas-keeping and manger scenes could remain because they are not really part of either Christianity or religion—but prayer and Bible reading, which are, must remain excluded from schools!

I guess the court nor you are aware of these Scriptures:

Luk 2:6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
Luk 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
Luk 2:8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
Luk 2:9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
Luk 2:12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
Luk 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
Luk 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
Luk 2:15 And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.
Luk 2:16 And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger.
Luk 2:17 And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this child.
Luk 2:18 And all they that heard it wondered at those things which were told them by the shepherds.
Luk 2:19 But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.
Luk 2:20 And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things that they had heard and seen, as it was told unto them.

I think Scripture trumps secular understanding of the Scriptures and Truth of Jesus Christ... And notice the proclamation and joy was to ALL people. Further if one continues with Luke 2:21-32--please note v30-32. If one were to draw a picture of the above event, what would one see, other than a manger etc? which also culminates in the Magi arriving. Yes, timewise that is out of sync in the snapshot that is presented with a manger scene. We don't know how many shepherds were present or who, when the magi did arrive and their number is really unknown. Matthew 2:1-12. However, I have seen it with different no's of both shepherds and magi, because it isn't the no. that is the issue. It's the presentation of Jesus Chrst, the salvation of God and the Son of God, and the fulfillment of prophecy. It's too bad that is offensive. To unbelievers and those who claim to belong to God and claim to believe the Scriptures.

So do you believe that an evergreen tree sprang from a dead tree stump Mark and became an idol or non existent god? Because that isn't something real Mark. That's false belief.

Instead, Christians know that there are no other gods. At least the Christians I know.

1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
2Pe 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

[Mark_R]

(12-10-2011 03:54 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  

Quote:Jesus said twice, in Matthew 7:16 and 20, that “you shall know them by their fruits.” Everything that people say or do, good or bad, has fruits. The fruits of Christmas are terrible. Christmas is about getting for the self—and pure commercialism. This season leads the entire year in adultery, loneliness, jealousy, drunkenness and drunk driving, family arguments (and worse), and accumulation of debt that often lasts until March. This problem is so significant that almost all churches report that their incomes drop during this period as people “recover” from all their spending! How ironic.

Wise words about knowing people by their fruits.
I cannot agree with the rest of your post though and am guessing we look at things from different perspectives.Christmas has also many good fruits.These include increased giving to charities and to good causes.Even people that aren't christians get softened by more good will at this time of year and tend to act more magnanimously at this time of year.Shame it doesn't last the rest of the year LOL.
The negative points you mentioned seemed to occur more among those who aren't actually christian but use the holiday for a chance to celebrate and be festive.
I do agree that Christmas can be a lonely time for those who have no-one but actually it may be during Christmas that the lonely people benefit from the increased goodwill, visiting etc that goes on around that time.
The sadness associated with the season usually occurs due to missing loved ones who are no longer with us.This happens in every significant holiday be it Passover, Christmas etc
Seeing as you are so against the world celebrating Christsmas would you rather that no-one celebrated it at all?

Personally if the "world" in general wants to celebrate it then let them. The world celebrates many things that are pointless and unfruitful. But, as believers and representatives of the Most high God, No, I think we should not. If for no other reason at all, because of the "spirit of Christmas" and all that it contains. I don't see much, in the way of just the fact that it's Christmas, about it leading very many if anyone to a more clear understanding of Our God. HE will call whom HE calls and choose whom HE chooses. I don't believe we have to go out of our way to "evangelize" the world. YHWH is way more then capible to do what HE promised HE would do. More then anything we just need to "represent" to the "world" whom we Worship and praise. And as far as doing good will goes, we should do that at all times of the year. It shouldn't take such a major event as this time of year, to so good will and show love and kindness to people.

[Lois]

I just think that holidays fall under man made ordinances.Unless they are contrary to the word of God, they are neither right nor wrong.We are given the freewill to choose for ourselves to participate or not.

1Co 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
1Co 10:30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
1Co 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
1Co 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

In this day and age it is almost impossible to not offend someone, somewhere,somehow...1Co 10:30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
I think it all hinges on our hearts and the attitude in which we partake.

Grace
G5485
χάρις
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

[Mark_R]

(12-11-2011 12:16 AM)Lois Wrote:  I just think that holidays fall under man made ordinances.Unless they are contrary to the word of God, they are neither right nor wrong.We are given the freewill to choose for ourselves to participate or not.

1Co 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
1Co 10:30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
1Co 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
1Co 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

In this day and age it is almost impossible to not offend someone, somewhere,somehow...1Co 10:30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
I think it all hinges on our hearts and the attitude in which we partake.

Grace
G5485
χάρις
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

Lois
Yes you are right, most holidays fall under man made ordinances. However, if that man made holiday falls under Idolatry or different God worship, then it don't matter one single bit what is in your "heart". In fact, I would even go so far to say that if it is in your "heart" to celebrate such a holiday that is contrary to our God, then you should maybe take a good look at your heart. Sorry Lois, to be so hardcore on this one but, no matter what people want to think about Xmas, or no matter who people think they are celebrating it too. The absolute facts on Xmas as well as Easter, are clearly, at the very least Not Christan in any since. But, even more factual are the proven realities that they both have there beings and intentions rooted in worship of other religions and other gods, more pointedly "paganism". I wish there was a better way to beat around the bush on this, but, there just isn't. And i have no doubt, Our Most high God does not think either holiday is acceptable in HIS site or his peoples.

[Vic]

Some comparisons between:

Secular or non Christians and Christmas:

Santa plus all related fables; some are involved in deliberately pagan activities to do with the occult
commercialism; wealth, greed, expecting gifts, selfishness
many giving generously, giving to the poor, visiting the sick
loneliness, sadness, debt,
many know the time is about Jesus being born in a manger but don't know Christ or recognise their personal need of salvation; many go to church at this time, year after year
sing God/ Christ honoring songs which declare Christ
sing songs that are not of God >nonsense songs; songs contrary to Scripture, such as, I saw three ships come sailing in, focused on santa, etc

And Christians and Christmas >> this is from a perspective of a true believer of Jesus Christ. The above can be applied at times to those who are merely 'culture' Christians or claim the label >>

it's about Christ
Scriptural focus on fulfilled prophecy from OT plus the gospel records of Jesus lineage, born of a virgin and the events surrounding His birth and just after, and proclaiming who He IS.
Teach children these scriptural truths often with skits or plays and nativity scenes as an outreach--to point to Christ. Teach the joy of Christ as proclaimed by the angels in the Scriptures , "good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people."
Give gifts to family, the poor, visit the sick etc; join with family and friends to acknowledge the Scriptural truth and reality of Jesus Christ, for example:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel...

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary

thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

and many more verses.

Sing Christ/God honoring songs and hymns of thanksgiving, praise and worship, such as the following.

Joy to the World-- "Joy to the world, the Lord is come! Let earth receive her King; Let ev'ry heart prepare Him room..."

Angels, from the Realms of Glory-- "Angels from the realms of glory, Wing your flight o'er all the earth; Ye who sang creation's story Now proclaim Messiah's birth: Come and worship, come and worship, Worship Christ, the newborn king...."

Hark! the Herald Angels Sing ---Hark! the herald angels sing, "Glory to the new-born King; Peace on earth and mercy mild, God and sinners reconciled!" Joyful, all ye nations, rise, Join the triumph of the skies; With the angelic host proclaim. "Christ is born in Bethlehem!" Hark! the herald angels sing, "Glory to the new-born King!" Christ, by highest heav'n adored. Christ, the everlasting Lord, Late in time behold Him come, Offspring of a virgin's womb. Veiled in flesh the Godhead see, Hail the incarnate Deity! Pleased as Man with man to dwell; Jesus, our Immanuel! Hark! the herald angels sing, "Glory to the new-born King!" HaiI, the heav'n-born Prince of Peace! Hail, the Sun of Righteousness! Light and life to all He brings, Ris'n with healing in His wings. Mild He leaves His throne on high, Born that man no more may die; Born to raise the sons of earth; Born to give them second birth. Hark! the herald angels sing, "Glory to the new-born King!" Come, Desire of nations, come, Fix in us Thy humble home; Rise, the woman's conq'ring seed, Bruise in us the serpent's head, Adam's likeness now efface, Stamp Thine image in its place: Second Adam from above, Reinstate us in Thy love. Hark! the herald angels sing, "Glory to the new-born King!" >>>>> I can provide the Scriptural references for these lines if you wish...>>>

It Came Upon the Midnight Clear ---It came upon the midnight clear, That glorious song of old, From angels bending near the earth To touch their harps of gold: "Peace on the earth, good will to men, From heav'n's all-gracious King." The world in solemn stillness lay, To hear the angels sing.

O Little Town of Bethlehem
Silent Night
Away in the Manger
O Holy Night

While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks By Night ---While shepherds watched their flocks by night, All seated on the ground, The angel of the Lord came down, ..."To you, in David's town, this day, Is born of David's line A Savior, who is Christ the Lord; And this shall be the sign: The heavenly Babe you there shall find To human view displayed, All meanly wrapped in swaddling-clothes And in a manger laid." ...

Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

If you could please note which statements in the above hymns are pagan Idolatry and false worship, that would be great Mark.

Some decorate their homes and churches to bring an atmosphere of celebration to the holiday which for them specifically focuses on Christ, although many feel that is unnecessary. The world as a whole recognises that Christmas is about Jesus Christ and His birth. Many non believers sing the above hymns without understanding.

Just as Israel was focused on Almighty God while the Egyptians made sacrifices to false gods; the Jews were commanded to take a lamb on the 10th day and keep it another 4 days, with the Egyptians being well aware that the Jews intended to sacrifice their deity on the 14th day. By sacrificing the lamb, the Jews denied the idol worship of the Egyptians and all peoples. They took something that was viewed as a deity but was a false non existent god and idol and sacrificed it to Almighty God, showing that there were no other gods and that they weren't going to be part of idol worship. Since the whole shpiel about Christmas and those advocating empty superstitions/non existent gods is what Christians are accused of being involved in, it is about the same issue. And quite frankly, the truth of the Scriptures and proclamation of Jesus Christ came long before Santa.

God gave feasts and festivals/celebrations in the first place to remember and keep things alive so to speak, as in the Passover, and all were shadows of things to come, which are found fulfilled in Christ. There was great rejoicing and worship of God in those shadows of things to come. When Israel was being read the law, after being exiled, here's what was said to them:

Neh 8:10 Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the LORD is your strength.
Neh 8:11 So the Levites stilled all the people, saying, Hold your peace, for the day is holy; neither be ye grieved.
Neh 8:12 And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them.

mirth H8057
שׂמחה
śimchâh
BDB Definition:
1) joy, mirth, gladness
1a) mirth, gladness, joy, gaiety, pleasure
1b) joy (of God)
1c) glad result, happy issue
Part of Speech: noun feminine

The effects of the various feasts was that aside from focus on God, it provided, not only spiritual unity, but social interaction. All blessings from God. In fact, the one festival and related tithes was provided for the people to go and spend the tithe on purchasing anything they lusted after or desired, by commandment of God.[De 12:15, 20, 21; 14:26]. That is totally contrary to what Christians are to be about. In the New Testament were are told to NOT lust after or covet anything at all.

What better feast and time of celebration is it, than to celerate the fulfilment of all that the prophets foretold and His coming. So if believers take what is stated in the OT and NT, with the lineage, the birth of Jesus and the angels proclaiming it to the shepherds, who in turn proclaimed what they were told to whomever they could, and that should never stop. Just because there is no known specific celebration before 200 ad--doesn't mean it wasn't a huge focal point being proclaimed by the apostles because it showed the fulfillment of prophecy concerning the salvation of God for all mankind. It really is the foundation of who Christ is and the Gospel. There are many who wish to extinguish that truth and not allow it to be proclaimed from one end of the earth to the other.

If Christians want to proclaim Christ in this particular and special way, it is neither wrong, nor commanded, but something that each must decide. That God said through the apostle Paul that each must be decided in their own mind, if they choose to esteem one day above the other, while others do not. But the crux of the matter is, that the day or celebration is to be about Jesus Christ. For His honor and His glory and those who proclaim Christ at Christmas time are doing just that, because of love and obedience to our Lord and Savior. Most Christians find this time of great joy, peaceful and refreshing to pull back from things and simply focus on this most joyous and specific Scriptural and true remembrance.

Christians worship God. They follow Jesus Christ and we are to have the mind of Christ--about all things. If Christians want to make a celebration alongside the most incredible events in history, the birth of Jesus Christ and the gift of salvation for all mankind, and make it also a time for family and children to learn these things through celebration, simple games or activities, that is something believers have the freedom to do. It's totally a God given choice because Christians know, just as Paul said, there are no idols aka gods to give sacrifice to.

Believe me when I say, a Christmas tree is not a living being, it doesn't speak, it has no power, it has no wisdom. Neither does a made up man in a red suit fly around the world exist, have flying reindeer, or climb down chimneys and deliver gifts to anyone. That's a fable brought about roughly in the 15th century, which we are to have nothing to do with.

Do you understand that Mark? What the world does, it does, and it can muddle, confuse and attempt to overturn the things of Christ and Scripture or the things that are done to honor Him.

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

What believers do, they do. We don't stop declaring Christ because someone tries to change the message of Truth. We make sure it is proclaimed regardless of those who would change that truth or try to suppress it.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

[Mark_R]

(12-11-2011 03:40 PM)Vic Wrote:  Some comparisons between:

Secular or non Christians and Christmas:

Santa plus all related fables; some are involved in deliberately pagan activities to do with the occult
commercialism; wealth, greed, expecting gifts, selfishness
many giving generously, giving to the poor, visiting the sick
loneliness, sadness, debt,
many know the time is about Jesus being born in a manger but don't know Christ or recognise their personal need of salvation; many go to church at this time, year after year
sing God/ Christ honoring songs which declare Christ
sing songs that are not of God >nonsense songs; songs contrary to Scripture, such as, I saw three ships come sailing in, focused on santa, etc

And Christians and Christmas >> this is from a perspective of a true believer of Jesus Christ. The above can be applied at times to those who are merely 'culture' Christians or claim the label >>

it's about Christ
Scriptural focus on fulfilled prophecy from OT plus the gospel records of Jesus lineage, born of a virgin and the events surrounding His birth and just after, and proclaiming who He IS.
Teach children these scriptural truths often with skits or plays and nativity scenes as an outreach--to point to Christ. Teach the joy of Christ as proclaimed by the angels in the Scriptures , "good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people."
Give gifts to family, the poor, visit the sick etc; join with family and friends to acknowledge the Scriptural truth and reality of Jesus Christ, for example:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel...

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary

thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

and many more verses.

Sing Christ/God honoring songs and hymns of thanksgiving, praise and worship, such as the following.

Joy to the World-- "Joy to the world, the Lord is come! Let earth receive her King; Let ev'ry heart prepare Him room..."

Angels, from the Realms of Glory-- "Angels from the realms of glory, Wing your flight o'er all the earth; Ye who sang creation's story Now proclaim Messiah's birth: Come and worship, come and worship, Worship Christ, the newborn king...."

Hark! the Herald Angels Sing ---Hark! the herald angels sing, "Glory to the new-born King; Peace on earth and mercy mild, God and sinners reconciled!" Joyful, all ye nations, rise, Join the triumph of the skies; With the angelic host proclaim. "Christ is born in Bethlehem!" Hark! the herald angels sing, "Glory to the new-born King!" Christ, by highest heav'n adored. Christ, the everlasting Lord, Late in time behold Him come, Offspring of a virgin's womb. Veiled in flesh the Godhead see, Hail the incarnate Deity! Pleased as Man with man to dwell; Jesus, our Immanuel! Hark! the herald angels sing, "Glory to the new-born King!" HaiI, the heav'n-born Prince of Peace! Hail, the Sun of Righteousness! Light and life to all He brings, Ris'n with healing in His wings. Mild He leaves His throne on high, Born that man no more may die; Born to raise the sons of earth; Born to give them second birth. Hark! the herald angels sing, "Glory to the new-born King!" Come, Desire of nations, come, Fix in us Thy humble home; Rise, the woman's conq'ring seed, Bruise in us the serpent's head, Adam's likeness now efface, Stamp Thine image in its place: Second Adam from above, Reinstate us in Thy love. Hark! the herald angels sing, "Glory to the new-born King!" >>>>> I can provide the Scriptural references for these lines if you wish...>>>

It Came Upon the Midnight Clear ---It came upon the midnight clear, That glorious song of old, From angels bending near the earth To touch their harps of gold: "Peace on the earth, good will to men, From heav'n's all-gracious King." The world in solemn stillness lay, To hear the angels sing.

O Little Town of Bethlehem
Silent Night
Away in the Manger
O Holy Night

While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks By Night ---While shepherds watched their flocks by night, All seated on the ground, The angel of the Lord came down, ..."To you, in David's town, this day, Is born of David's line A Savior, who is Christ the Lord; And this shall be the sign: The heavenly Babe you there shall find To human view displayed, All meanly wrapped in swaddling-clothes And in a manger laid." ...

Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

If you could please note which statements in the above hymns are pagan Idolatry and false worship, that would be great Mark.

Some decorate their homes and churches to bring an atmosphere of celebration to the holiday which for them specifically focuses on Christ, although many feel that is unnecessary. The world as a whole recognises that Christmas is about Jesus Christ and His birth. Many non believers sing the above hymns without understanding.

Just as Israel was focused on Almighty God while the Egyptians made sacrifices to false gods; the Jews were commanded to take a lamb on the 10th day and keep it another 4 days, with the Egyptians being well aware that the Jews intended to sacrifice their deity on the 14th day. By sacrificing the lamb, the Jews denied the idol worship of the Egyptians and all peoples. They took something that was viewed as a deity but was a false non existent god and idol and sacrificed it to Almighty God, showing that there were no other gods and that they weren't going to be part of idol worship. Since the whole shpiel about Christmas and those advocating empty superstitions/non existent gods is what Christians are accused of being involved in, it is about the same issue. And quite frankly, the truth of the Scriptures and proclamation of Jesus Christ came long before Santa.

God gave feasts and festivals/celebrations in the first place to remember and keep things alive so to speak, as in the Passover, and all were shadows of things to come, which are found fulfilled in Christ. There was great rejoicing and worship of God in those shadows of things to come. When Israel was being read the law, after being exiled, here's what was said to them:

Neh 8:10 Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the LORD is your strength.
Neh 8:11 So the Levites stilled all the people, saying, Hold your peace, for the day is holy; neither be ye grieved.
Neh 8:12 And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them.

mirth H8057
שׂמחה
śimchâh
BDB Definition:
1) joy, mirth, gladness
1a) mirth, gladness, joy, gaiety, pleasure
1b) joy (of God)
1c) glad result, happy issue
Part of Speech: noun feminine

The effects of the various feasts was that aside from focus on God, it provided, not only spiritual unity, but social interaction. All blessings from God. In fact, the one festival and related tithes was provided for the people to go and spend the tithe on purchasing anything they lusted after or desired, by commandment of God.[De 12:15, 20, 21; 14:26]. That is totally contrary to what Christians are to be about. In the New Testament were are told to NOT lust after or covet anything at all.

What better feast and time of celebration is it, than to celerate the fulfilment of all that the prophets foretold and His coming. So if believers take what is stated in the OT and NT, with the lineage, the birth of Jesus and the angels proclaiming it to the shepherds, who in turn proclaimed what they were told to whomever they could, and that should never stop. Just because there is no known specific celebration before 200 ad--doesn't mean it wasn't a huge focal point being proclaimed by the apostles because it showed the fulfillment of prophecy concerning the salvation of God for all mankind. It really is the foundation of who Christ is and the Gospel. There are many who wish to extinguish that truth and not allow it to be proclaimed from one end of the earth to the other.

If Christians want to proclaim Christ in this particular and special way, it is neither wrong, nor commanded, but something that each must decide. That God said through the apostle Paul that each must be decided in their own mind, if they choose to esteem one day above the other, while others do not. But the crux of the matter is, that the day or celebration is to be about Jesus Christ. For His honor and His glory and those who proclaim Christ at Christmas time are doing just that, because of love and obedience to our Lord and Savior. Most Christians find this time of great joy, peaceful and refreshing to pull back from things and simply focus on this most joyous and specific Scriptural and true remembrance.

Christians worship God. They follow Jesus Christ and we are to have the mind of Christ--about all things. If Christians want to make a celebration alongside the most incredible events in history, the birth of Jesus Christ and the gift of salvation for all mankind, and make it also a time for family and children to learn these things through celebration, simple games or activities, that is something believers have the freedom to do. It's totally a God given choice because Christians know, just as Paul said, there are no idols aka gods to give sacrifice to.

Believe me when I say, a Christmas tree is not a living being, it doesn't speak, it has no power, it has no wisdom. Neither does a made up man in a red suit fly around the world exist, have flying reindeer, or climb down chimneys and deliver gifts to anyone. That's a fable brought about roughly in the 15th century, which we are to have nothing to do with.

Do you understand that Mark? What the world does, it does, and it can muddle, confuse and attempt to overturn the things of Christ and Scripture or the things that are done to honor Him.

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

What believers do, they do. We don't stop declaring Christ because someone tries to change the message of Truth. We make sure it is proclaimed regardless of those who would change that truth or try to suppress it.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

The effects of the various feasts was that aside from focus on God, it provided, not only spiritual unity, but social interaction. All blessings from God. In fact, the one festival and related tithes was provided for the people to go and spend the tithe on purchasing anything they lusted after or desired, by commandment of God.[De 12:15, 20, 21; 14:26]. That is totally contrary to what Christians are to be about. In the New Testament were are told to NOT lust after or covet anything at all.

That's really stretching these verses Vic. One thing is for certain though, All feast's and celebration's were given by God to HIS people. No matter how you see your Doctrine, Christian or Torah Observant, HR or whatever.. If you Claim the one true God, the God of Israel, then no matter what, You celebrations should be of the ones that HE gave us for HIS purposes, not for our purposes.

it's about Christ
Scriptural focus on fulfilled prophecy from OT plus the gospel records of Jesus lineage, born of a virgin and the events surrounding His birth and just after, and proclaiming who He IS.
Teach children these scriptural truths often with skits or plays and nativity scenes as an outreach--to point to Christ. Teach the joy of Christ as proclaimed by the angels in the Scriptures , "good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people."
Give gifts to family, the poor, visit the sick etc; join with family and friends to acknowledge the Scriptural truth and reality of Jesus Christ, for example:[/b]

I beg to differ. It may be true that people of the Christian faith adapted Xmas as a time dedicated to the Messiah. But the truth of it is the whole entire Xmas celebration came about and was rooted in Pagan or other god worship. And I totally disagree with teaching these holiday's to our children. Why can't we just plain old teach them as we are told to teach them, in the way that they should go, as a set apart people whose only desire is the worship and praise of the one true God. Why do we in anyway shape or form have to keep pagan symbolism and meaning of things that totally have nothing to do with our God??

Some decorate their homes and churches to bring an atmosphere of celebration to the holiday which for them specifically focuses on Christ, although many feel that is unnecessary. The world as a whole recognises that Christmas is about Jesus Christ and His birth. Many non believers sing the above hymns without understanding.

God gave feasts and festivals/celebrations in the first place to remember and keep things alive so to speak, as in the Passover, and all were shadows of things to come, which are found fulfilled in Christ. There was great rejoicing and worship of God in those shadows of things to come. When Israel was being read the law, after being exiled, here's what was said to them:[/b] [/color]

Neh 8:10 Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the LORD is your strength.
Neh 8:11 So the Levites stilled all the people, saying, Hold your peace, for the day is holy; neither be ye grieved.
Neh 8:12 And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them. [color=#000080]

[b]That's right God gave the feast's and celebrations. Not man made ones or specifically Ones that have there origins in worship to other things then our God. And all this decorating and symbolism you are talking about, the tree, the lights, the ornaments on the tree, the yule logs, the santa's in the malls, and on and on and on.... All point to the facts of what this celebration is pointing to. And that has nothing to do with honoring our God or our Savior and King. I also totally disagree that even the majority of Christians look at this time of year solely for the purpose of the birth of the Messiah. All's you have to do is go to any major mall and see all those "Christians" spending money they don't even have, on gifts that have nothing at all to do with the humble beginnings of our Messiah. They are completely caught up in the "spirit" of xmas. Greed, Greed and more greed. Plus on trying to out do everyone else, and going in to major debt in doing so. Oh sure we make a few minor contributions to charity. But that's only so we don't feel guilty about all the other sin we are engaging in with the whole holiday "spirit" of it. I have witnessed so many Believers, time and time again, spending all their money on gifts for their "kids", just so they don't have to be made to feel guilty about NOT having bought their kids, the best presents money can buy. And I know you've seen the same thing Vic. Why do we try sooooo hard to justify the xmas season?? We all know how evil and unchristian like it really is. Yet we continue to try to hold on to it.The ruler's of this time of year "own" this so called holiday. Always have and always will. And the proof of that is in the way all the symbolism that the church tried to introduce into "their Holiday", has been all but removed for good. Can you disagree with that? If in fact God had instituted this celebration in the first place(which he clearly did not) then the ones that's did create this celebration would never had been able to remove the Almighty from this celebration. Many have tried over the century's to remove God from God's Holy day's, but, that don't happen. God won't let his Holy day's be taken over by the non believing pagan world.

[Lois]

Mark, I think you put limits on God when you make it seem as though He(God) couldn't possibly be a part of Christmas or anyone that believes in Him(God) could not possibly be involved with Christmas.If we use your thinking then we would have to also say that anyone who was ever a pagan could not be redeemed.God can use anything He chooses.God can change anything He chooses.
Most people start out badly.Does that mean that God can't change them and use them for something good? No it doesn't.Christmas may have started out badly but that does not mean that God couldn't or wouldn't redeem it.
Mark.we will just have to agree to disagree lol

[Mark_R]

(12-11-2011 07:52 PM)Lois Wrote:  Mark, I think you put limits on God when you make it seem as though He(God) couldn't possibly be a part of Christmas or anyone that believes in Him(God) could not possibly be involved with Christmas.If we use your thinking then we would have to also say that anyone who was ever a pagan could not be redeemed.God can use anything He chooses.God can change anything He chooses.
Most people start out badly.Does that mean that God can't change them and use them for something good? No it doesn't.Christmas may have started out badly but that does not mean that God couldn't or wouldn't redeem it.
Mark.we will just have to agree to disagree lol

Lois
I seriously Love you. And I don't mean to be mean to you. And yes by all means we can agree to disagree. There is really absolutely no reason we have to agree on everything.
I just want to say one more thing to you. You said "Christmas may have started out badly but that does not mean that God couldn't or wouldn't redeem it." The problem with that is, it didn't just start out a little bad, it was always very bad. God has never, and I doubt HE would ever, make something ok that was of such a Idolatrous nature. More then once HE had the Israelite s utterly destroy everything that was of a Pagan nature or that profaned HIS name.

[Lois]

I don't personally go out of my way to celebrate Christmas but I don't hold anything against someone that does.Most people have to observe it whether they want to or not.Most people have to take that day off from work whether they want to or not.Most businesses are closed on the day of Christmas.So really pretty much everyone is made to observe it somehow, someway whether they wanted to or not, sometimes even accidentally. So does that mean we are all going to suffer the wrath of God?I think not...not those of us that are in Christ Jesus.

I love you to Mark..you're making me think lol