Who is "All" Israel in the New Covenant?

[FrankDH]

Admin NOTE: This was a split of posts from the Sacrifices Re-Instituted in the Third Temple and the Romans 11--And ALL Israel Will Be Saved threads--merged to cover this topic.


Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

"not to that only which is of the law" Who is this talking about? Paul spoke these words some time after Jesus ascended. If Jesus put an end to law, FOR ALL, who is Paul describing as being of the law?

Liberty from the bonds of law comes only through Jesus Christ. Believers have had the law set aside. Those who have not accessed this liberty remain under law. Law hasn't ended yet, except for the believer. Israel remains under law.

The Levitical priresthood is still a demand of law, for some. The order of Melchizedek was created for those outside the law. It isn't one or the other exists. They co-exist.

[Rose of Shushan]

Hi FrankDH
welcome to the forum.Nice to see you get stuck into posting straight away

Quote:Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

"not to that only which is of the law" Who is this talking about? Paul spoke these words some time after Jesus ascended. If Jesus put an end to law, FOR ALL, who is Paul describing as being of the law?

The way I see it here is that those who are of the Law were/are Israel ie the Jewish people..When Paul wrote that, he was describing the Jewish people /Israel who hold onto the Sinai Covenant thus binding thmselves to obey the Covenant made at Sinai and having circumcision and the Sabbath as a sign of this Covenant.Those who convert and join the Jewish people today also put themselves under the Law, so to speak.

Quote:Liberty from the bonds of law comes only through Jesus Christ. Believers have had the law set aside. Those who have not accessed this liberty remain under law. Law hasn't ended yet, except for the believer. Israel remains under law.

The Levitical priresthood is still a demand of law, for some. The order of Melchizedek was created for those outside the law. It isn't one or the other exists. They co-exist.

I am not too sure I understand you there. Israel remains under the Law due to her own choosing.God has made a better way and the words of Jeremiah 31:31 came to pass.

Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the descendant should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster


Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

[/b]

While I agree Israel remains under the Law due to their own choosing.I dont believe that is the way God wants it at all.He wants all to come to Christ.The first covenant is over so people dont need to place themselves under the Law and join the Sinai Covenant.You wrote

Quote:The order of Melchizedek was created for those outside the law. It isn't one or the other exists. They co-exist.

Jesus didnt come to be an alternative to the Law ,he came to fulfil it and bring in the New Covenant, to free and redeem his people from slavery into Sin and a covenant that since they did not keep just led them into being cursed.Are you saying that God put into place two systems,one where people remain cursed(because they can't keep all that the Law demands) and in bondage to Sin and the other the sytem that leads to true circumcision of the heart and life eternal?
When the Law was nailed to the Cross along with the curse and also with all the ordinances and commandments that condemned us and made us transgressors,

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace;

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

didnt that make an end to the Sinai Covenant and all its commandments and ordinances that were leading us to be cursed.
If you say both coexist then the Law wasnt really nailed to the Cross was it? or did it then break free and ran away?

[FrankDH]

Rose of Shushan Wrote:Hi FrankDH
welcome to the forum.Nice to see you get stuck into posting straight away

Nice to meet you too.

Rose of Shushan Wrote:The way I see it here is that those who are of the Law were/are Israel ie the Jewish people..When Paul wrote that, he was describing the Jewish people /Israel who hold onto the Sinai Covenant thus binding thmselves to obey the Covenant made at Sinai and having circumcision and the Sabbath as a sign of this Covenant.Those who convert and join the Jewish people today also put themselves under the Law, so to speak.


I am not too sure I understand you there. Israel remains under the Law due to her own choosing.God has made a better way and the words of Jeremiah 31:31 came to pass.

Israel did not remain under law by choice. Israel hasn't had a choice yet. They didn't recognize their Messiah because blindness HAPPENED to them.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

It happened to them for our sake, as a part of God's redemptive plan for all of mankind.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Only an election according to grace was given to know the mysteries of the kingdom.
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
If they had known they would have made a choice.
1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

They did not know they were rejecting their Messiah.
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

They were given the spirit of slumber. They didn't choose it.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
This is not a choice of man. This is a choice of God.
All had to be concluded in sin so all could receive mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Rose of Shushan Wrote:Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the descendant should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster


Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

The only way to become free of the curse of law is to accept Jesus. Israel has been blinded to this possibility. And while blind, they cannot be influenced by one who rose from the grave. They must hear Moses and the Prophets first.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Who is the "we" in Gal 3:25? It is those who have come to faith. Not those who are blinded to it. Israel remain under her schoolmaster until she obtains saving faith. And God has appointed a time when this will happen. After the fulness of the gentiles comes in [Rom 11:25].
Here is when Israel will awaken:
Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
Deu 30:2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
Deu 30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Deu 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

It shall come to pass that Israel will recall the blessing and curse Moses spoke of and return to obedience to God's commandments. Then Israel's eyes will be opened to the possibility of one who rose from the grave. God has nailed the law to the cross for those who have come to faith. Not those who are blind to it.

Rose of Shushan Wrote:While I agree Israel remains under the Law due to their own choosing.I dont believe that is the way God wants it at all.He wants all to come to Christ.The first covenant is over so people dont need to place themselves under the Law and join the Sinai Covenant.You wrote


Jesus didnt come to be an alternative to the Law ,he came to fulfil it and bring in the New Covenant, to free and redeem his people from slavery into Sin and a covenant that since they did not keep just led them into being cursed.Are you saying that God put into place two systems,one where people remain cursed(because they can't keep all that the Law demands) and in bondage to Sin and the other the sytem that leads to true circumcision of the heart and life eternal?
When the Law was nailed to the Cross along with the curse and also with all the ordinances and commandments that condemned us and made us transgressors,

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace;

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

didnt that make an end to the Sinai Covenant and all its commandments and ordinances that were leading us to be cursed.
If you say both coexist then the Law wasnt really nailed to the Cross was it? or did it then break free and ran away?

I find it interesting that you see Israel choosing the law and not seeing the new covenant as an alternative. Without an alternative, where is the choice?

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:Here is when Israel will awaken:
Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
Deu 30:2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
Deu 30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Deu 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

It shall come to pass that Israel will recall the blessing and curse Moses spoke of and return to obedience to God's commandments. Then Israel's eyes will be opened to the possibility of one who rose from the grave. God has nailed the law to the cross for those who have come to faith. Not those who are blind to it.

Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call [them] to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

Assyria and Babylon, that’s the two nations into which they were driven.


Deu 30:2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
Deu 30:4 If [any] of thine be driven out unto the outmost [parts] of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Deu 30:5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.


Moses here sees what will befall the people in the future when they fail to heed the words of the covenant and are scattered into the nations.He also sees what will happen even after that when God will have mercy and cut a new covenant with those who returned from the captivities.

Deu 30:7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
Deu 30:8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day
Deu 30:9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers


This did happen after they returned from Babylon.God blessed them and the land and they did observe the commandments once again.
Yes they took great care to observe the letter of the law as we saw with the Pharisees but still their hearts weren’t in it.
God regathered them twice, with the Assyrian and then the Babylonian captivities.
He also regathered them and continues to do so spiritually under one King that is Jesus.

Quote:God has nailed the law to the cross for those who have come to faith. Not those who are blind to it.

I don’t see how God nails the law to the Cross for some and not for others.That is not what the Scripture says.

Quote:They were given the spirit of slumber. They didn't choose it.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
This is not a choice of man. This is a choice of God.
All had to be concluded in sin so all could receive mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This to me sounds as though you are saying God blinded the people on purpose and this would seem to be terribly unfair and against people-s free will.I see those verses in a different way. Because Israel generally rejected Messiah back then and persecuted Christs followers they were driven out into the nations spreading the gospel as they went.Thus Israels rejection proved to be the nations' blessing.

[FrankDH]

Rose of Shushan Wrote:Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call [them] to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

Assyria and Babylon, that’s the two nations into which they were driven.

Deu 30:2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
Deu 30:4 If [any] of thine be driven out unto the outmost [parts] of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Deu 30:5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.


Moses here sees what will befall the people in the future when they fail to heed the words of the covenant and are scattered into the nations.He also sees what will happen even after that when God will have mercy and cut a new covenant with those who returned from the captivities.

Deu 30:7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
Deu 30:8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day
Deu 30:9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers


This did happen after they returned from Babylon.God blessed them and the land and they did observe the commandments once again.
Yes they took great care to observe the letter of the law as we saw with the Pharisees but still their hearts weren’t in it.
God regathered them twice, with the Assyrian and then the Babylonian captivities.
He also regathered them and continues to do so spiritually under one King that is Jesus.

I don't deny that Israel was driven captive into Assyria and Babylon. But I can wonder if these historic events fulfill this passage.

Moses is addressing the nation of Israel about a future event. When I compare the region that either Assyria or Babylon controls, it doesn't fit the description of the area of gathering in Deut 30:4. And I don't see any indication that some would opt out of the gathering. Based on the text given, neither Assyria nor Babylon fulfill what is written.
Moses is presenting a contrast to Israel. Life and good or death and evil [Deut 30:15]. Bleesing or curse [Deut 30:1]. There is no option for anyone to remain living among their captors. But there is in the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities.
Moses is addressing Israel's vary existence hinging upon this time of repentance. It's the last step before being gathered into the land in fulfillment of the promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The final possession of the land. It's not temporary.

Rose of Shushan Wrote:I don’t see how God nails the law to the Cross for some and not for others.That is not what the Scripture says.

If you are not led to accept this, go where you are led. Law is the standard for judgment. Without law there is no transgression. And no one can be freed from law unless Jesus provides that freedom. He doesn't provide it unless you become saved.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

It is one's coming to faith that eliminates the need for law. Jesus created a way to be free from law, through His sacrifice. But Paul clearly teaches that freedom comes through the arrival of faith. You have to accept Him to be freed. If the law was nailed to the cross for everyone, then freedom from law ended at the cross. Not when faith comes. That's not what Paul was saying here.

Rose of Shushan Wrote:This to me sounds as though you are saying God blinded the people on purpose and this would seem to be terribly unfair and against people-s free will.I see those verses in a different way. Because Israel generally rejected Messiah back then and persecuted Christs followers they were driven out into the nations spreading the gospel as they went.Thus Israels rejection proved to be the nations' blessing.

When did fairness become an hermenuetic? Was it fair that Jesus died for our sin? You don't question His sacrifice on the basis of fairness. No verse in scripture uses fairness as a standard God is held to. Mercy isn't fair. Blessing the nations by driving Israel into captivity isn't fair.

[Rose of Shushan]

Hi Frank
you wrote

Quote:I don't deny that Israel was driven captive into Assyria and Babylon. But I can wonder if these historic events fulfill this passage.

Moses is addressing the nation of Israel about a future event. When I compare the region that either Assyria or Babylon controls, it doesn't fit the description of the area of gathering in Deut 30:4. And I don't see any indication that some would opt out of the gathering. Based on the text given, neither Assyria nor Babylon fulfill what is written.
Moses is presenting a contrast to Israel. Life and good or death and evil [Deut 30:15]. Bleesing or curse [Deut 30:1]. There is no option for anyone to remain living among their captors. But there is in the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities.
Moses is addressing Israel's vary existence hinging upon this time of repentance. It's the last step before being gathered into the land in fulfillment of the promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The final possession of the land. It's not temporary.

Well the thing is Frank, Nehemiah tends to agree with me on this one.He actually refers to Deut 30 :4 and says its is them there now look..

Neh 1:8 Remember, I beseech you, the word that you commanded your servant Moses, saying, If you transgress, I will scatter you abroad among the nations:
Neh 1:9 But if you turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though some of you were cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, yet will I gather them from there, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there.
Neh 1:10 Now these are your servants and your people, whom you have redeemed by your great power, and by your strong hand.

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:When did fairness become an hermenuetic? Was it fair that Jesus died for our sin? You don't question His sacrifice on the basis of fairness. No verse in scripture uses fairness as a standard God is held to. Mercy isn't fair. Blessing the nations by driving Israel into captivity isn't fair.

It was because of justice that Jesus died for our sins.God is just and fair and sin cannot go unpunished. However, like the prophet Isaiah says

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

I am having a hard time comprehending what you mean there in that quote.Do you mean to say that God isnt fair or just when there are many scriptures that say that he is. You seem to think that God blinded Israel on purpose, thus excusing any jew on earth now from believing in Jesus..because you say its Gods fault since he unfairly blinded them anyway.Where on earth do we see this in NT? Did Paul stop going into the synagogues and preaching because the jews were supposedly blinded and supposedly lost causes til the end of the supposed time of the gentiles? Give me a break. We see Paul preaching in synagogues,James writing to the 12 tribes in the Diaspora and Jesus saying he came for the lost sheep of the House of Israel.If all Israel is truly blinded til the time of the end why on earth did Jesus and the Apostles bother? Can you tell me Frank?

[FrankDH]

Rose of Sushan Wrote:Well the thing is Frank, Nehemiah tends to agree with me on this one.He actually refers to Deut 30 :4 and says its is them there now look..

Neh 1:8 Remember, I beseech you, the word that you commanded your servant Moses, saying, If you transgress, I will scatter you abroad among the nations:
Neh 1:9 But if you turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though some of you were cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, yet will I gather them from there, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there.
Neh 1:10 Now these are your servants and your people, whom you have redeemed by your great power, and by your strong hand.

Nehemiah is pleading with the Lord [beseech] that this be the fulfillment of the prophecy to Moses. This is not an assertion that the time for fulfillment has arrived.

Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
Lev 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

Nehemiah is making this request in accordance with the steps for repentance laid out in the law.

Neh 1:6 Let thine ear now be attentive, and thine eyes open, that thou mayest hear the prayer of thy servant, which I pray before thee now, day and night, for the children of Israel thy servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel, which we have sinned against thee: both I and my father's house have sinned.
Neh 1:7 We have dealt very corruptly against thee, and have not kept the commandments, nor the statutes, nor the judgments, which thou commandedst thy servant Moses.
Neh 1:8 Remember, I beseech thee, the word that thou commandedst thy servant Moses, saying, If ye transgress, I will scatter you abroad among the nations:

Now look at Deut 30.

Deu 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

Deut 30 is not addressing a portion of the nation. "of thine" is Israel, the nation. That's who is being addressesed unless you believe Moses was only addressing a portion of the nation. And if that were the case, then the blessing and curse would not apply to the entire nation. There is no partial fetching promised in this verse. If you are Israel, you get fetched. There is no provision for any to remain in the land of their captors.

There will be only one time when this can take place. It has to be a time when a national conversion takes place. And that can only be following the point where God has purged Israel. Partial fulfillment might be had prior to this point. But complete fulfillment requires that all of "of thine" be fetched back into the land.

Daniel prayed in the same manner that Nehemiah prayed.

Dan 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:
Dan 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
Dan 9:5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:
Dan 9:6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.
Dan 9:7 O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.
Dan 9:8 O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.
Dan 9:9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
Dan 9:10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.
Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
Dan 9:12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.
Dan 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

Daniel prayed in accordance with the steps of repentance laid out in the law, with a request that this be the time when the Lord would restore Israel. But Daniel was told there would yet be 70 prophetic weeks determined against Israel. The prophets of God were always praying for the time when Israel would receive entrance into the land as an eternal possession. You are settling for any period where Israel enters the land as having satisified the promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It will not be fulfilled until Israel is in the land to stay. All other instances just foreshadow that time.

Rose of Sushan Wrote:It was because of justice that Jesus died for our sins.God is just and fair and sin cannot go unpunished. However, like the prophet Isaiah says

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

I am having a hard time comprehending what you mean there in that quote.Do you mean to say that God isnt fair or just when there are many scriptures that say that he is. You seem to think that God blinded Israel on purpose, thus excusing any jew on earth now from believing in Jesus..because you say its Gods fault since he unfairly blinded them anyway.

I can agree with you that God is just. Many verses say this. None say He is fair. Justice and fairness are not synonyms. Fairness means everyone receives the same outcome [like you attempt when law is nailed to the cross]. Justice is judging each according to his deeds. It's not one size fits all as you see freedom from law.
And I don't fault God for blinding Israel. I don't see it as a fault. You hear that because you think God has to be fair. I'm open to any verse that says that. It isn't written anywhere. If God has to be fair, you should have no problem answering the question I posed to you. Was it fair that Jesus had to die for your sins and mine? Fairness would demand that Jesus not be killed for the sins of others.

Rose of Sushan Wrote:Where on earth do we see this in NT? Did Paul stop going into the synagogues and preaching because the jews were supposedly blinded and supposedly lost causes til the end of the supposed time of the gentiles? Give me a break. We see Paul preaching in synagogues,James writing to the 12 tribes in the Diaspora and Jesus saying he came for the lost sheep of the House of Israel.If all Israel is truly blinded til the time of the end why on earth did Jesus and the Apostles bother? Can you tell me Frank?

Rom 11 is the NT and I have used it as an explanation of my beliefs. If you study Rom 11 you will find that Israel has been divided into two groups. One group, the election according to grace, are those God reserved to Himself as a remnant [Rom 11:5]. The rest of Israel was blinded [Rom 11:7]. Just as God reserved a remnant for Himself, in the days of Elijah, He has done it in each generation. Today, there is a portion of Israel that can be reached by the gospel [election according to grace] and a portion who will remain an enemy of the gospel [the blind portion that will not see until the fulness of the gentiles comes in].

Neither you, nor I nor Paul knows who God has placed in either of these groups. But the election according to grace can be reached with the gospel. So yes, Paul did, as we should, continue to attempt a witness to Israel.

It is the election according to grace that Jesus meant when He said He came for the lost sheep of Israel. He informed those who were given to know and spoke in parables to those who were not given to know. And Jesus declared to His Father that He never lost a one that was sent to Him, save Judas, so we know He got who He came for. The alterernative is He failed to collect the lost sheep of Israel. He did not fail.

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:Daniel prayed in accordance with the steps of repentance laid out in the law, with a request that this be the time when the Lord would restore Israel. But Daniel was told there would yet be 70 prophetic weeks determined against Israel. The prophets of God were always praying for the time when Israel would receive entrance into the land as an eternal possession. You are settling for any period where Israel enters the land as having satisified the promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It will not be fulfilled until Israel is in the land to stay. All other instances just foreshadow that time.

The covenant that involved the land was the Sinai Covenant.However God knew all along that eventually the people would break the covenant and after much patience and long sufferingness Jesus would come to usher in the New Covenant.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; my covenant which they broke, although I was a husband unto them, says the LORD:

So the Covenant to do with land is broken,it has been superceded by a covenant based on better promises


Heb 8:6 But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he says, Behold, the days come, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:13 In that he says, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and grows old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

If you expect Israel to be in the land to stay like you said, that would be in accordance with the first covenant, which is not something that the NT supports at all as we see from the verses I just posted and many more that we can see.The

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should later receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing where he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from which they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he has prepared for them a city.

Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him outside the camp, bearing his reproach.
Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:Nehemiah is pleading with the Lord [beseech] that this be the fulfillment of the prophecy to Moses. This is not an assertion that the time for fulfillment has arrived.

Actually the time of fulfilment of God bringing them back from the nations that he had driven them had arrived. The prophets Isaiah Jeremiah etc prophesied extensively on the captivities by both Assyria and Babylon and on Gods deliverance and return to the land of a remnant. What transpired up to the time of Christ when the prophecies were eventually fulfilled, forms basis of our Scripture and history. God said theyd be scattered ,killed by the sword ,take into captivity and only a remnant remain. And through the prophets and writings we see it was first to Assyria and then to Babylon and finally the Covenant was destroyed and people scattered into the nations one last time.
Additionally the Prophets told us that after God brought them back he would send them the Promised Redeemer, the Christ.

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom you seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom you delight in: behold, he shall come, says the LORD of hosts.


How you can say that really it all meant some time in the future 2500 plus years later is just beyond me. Jesus was very final when he wept over Jerusalem., he knew what was coming.And the NT teaches that when he returns there is no mention of a return to the Old covenant ,since it says it’s the new one thats eternal .Instead we see

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats:

And the separation is based on us having loved others as Jesus loved us and shown it. On having obeyed Jesus commandments on doing to others what we would have done unto him.
Nothing about being separated according to election, grace or ancestry.