Who is "All" Israel in the New Covenant?

[FrankDH]

Rose of Sushan Wrote:Heb 7:18 For there is verily an annulment of the previous commandment because of the weakness and uselessness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by which we draw near unto God.


Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and an earthly sanctuary. ….

Heb 9:8 The Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in foods and drinks, and various washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the ones approaching perfect.

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin you desired not, neither had pleasure in them; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having a high priest over the house of God;

Frank we cant be in both, there is a new and better way in the New Covenant and for you to say it has not been abolished means that ,even though you may not realize, are rejecting that same new covenant.
It is not mans doctrine but what the Bible teaches as Hebrews says

You are not understanding what I am saying if you think I believe we are in both. If one is saved, they are under the new covenant and exmpt from the old. I do not reject the new covenant.
I know this is difficult for you, because of how you understand things. I have lots of these talks with people of your persuasion. I respect their efforts to study. They provide a great test of my beliefs. And that is an important part of study for me. But you have to be able to step back and analyze your beliefs to test them.
How is it you can see the "annullment" in Heb 7:18 and not see the "we" in the very next verse?

How is it you can see the insufficiency of sacrificed calves and goats, in Heb 9:12, and not see it is "us" who has obtained eternal redemption?
How is it you can see a second, in Heb 10:9, and not see it is applied to the "we" in verse 10?
We are to heed every word out of the mouth of God. That gives every word import in determining doctrine. These words are contrary to what I'm hearing from you.
If you go back through every post I have made I have attempted to answer every question posed to me. Now go back and see how many of the questions I have asked have been addressed. They don't get addressed. We just start going after your point from another direction.
It's all about the test for me. I know I am prone to bias. And that bias can skew what I see. That's why I seek out brothers and sisters with differing interpretations. They do not have my biases. They may pose a question my doctrine is insufficient to address. If it can be done, I want to know it. And if their doctrine can stand testing, I want to know that too.
I try to address those parts of the verses you offer. But when I ask you to consider other words included in the same passages, it doesn't happen. All those words are important. And they must all be compatible with the rest.
To me, your interpretations conflict with each other. Because you view a universal annullment of the law, you see it gone, but you admit scripture says it is old and ready to vanish. The two are not compatible if the annullment is for all of man. But the two do not conflict if the annullment benefits those who have obtained salvation, and the law is old and ready to vanish for the unsaved.

Rose of Sushan Wrote:Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.

I don’t know what else how else to put it really.Some of the things you are saying are hard for me to understand and sound contradictory.

What comes across to me throughout all this is that you keep on excusing Israel for rejecting their Messiah.It reminds me of John Hagee and his theology.

I am not Israel's judge. It is not my place to excuse or accuse them. I accept what God says about it. I do not interpret scripture with the presumption God has written off the nation of Israel. That conflicts with oaths God swore by Himself.
You can't hang around these discussions for long without being exposed to commentary from John Hagee, and others. I don't seek any of them out. Interactive study works best for me. 1 Th 5:21 and the Berean example are my guides in study. The things I hear are what gets studied to see if it is verified in scripture.

Rose of Sushan Wrote:Christs sacrifice does bestow mercy and salvation for all Israel.But to enter into the New Covenant its an individual choice. It is different to the Old and ancestry and being a descendant of Abraham Isaac and Jacob does not count. In the New Covenant people don’t enter it because they are born into it.Thats what they must be born again so to speak. Of the Spirit not of the flesh.

Christ bestowed mercy on all of mankind, including Israel, by offering salvation. Salvation was not universally bestowed. One must choose to enter the new covenant, with all its benefits, or remain condemned under the old covenant. Jesus' offer of salvation is what makes the old covenant ready to vanish. Our old man must die to sin condemned by the law. We share in Christ's death and resurrection to become new creatures, which have never been, nor will ever be under the law. That's how you become freed from law. And Jesus made it a possibility. It only becomes reality for those who become reborn.

Rose of Sushan Wrote:We know many were and continue to be saved that are natural born Israelites ie the Jwish people. Why are some blind and some not

Because God reserves a faithful remnant fror Himself [Rom 11:4]. And He does it because of the promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. [Rom 11:28]. When God swore on Himself, He placed who He was on the line. If He is a God of trith, what He says will happen. That's why He says He defers His anger on the house of Jacob, for His own name's sake [Isa 48:9]. A perpetual remnant is a direct implication of the promise to Abraham.
Look at Jer 14. Jeremiah pleads for a rebellious nation before God.
Jer 14:21 Do not abhor us, for thy name's sake, do not disgrace the throne of thy glory: remember, break not thy covenant with us.
Jeremiah isn't praying for a church purged of its sin. He is praying for a nation that is far from covanent compliance. And He establishes that if God ever foresakes that nation God's name would be at stake and the glory of His throne tarnished. God is sovereign. He can choose to abandon the nation of Israel, and diminish His own name and throne, or not foresake the nation of Israel and purge them, for His glory.
Look at what God told Ezekiel.
Eze 20:8 But they rebelled against me, and would not hearken unto me: they did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes, neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt: then I said, I will pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.
Eze 20:9 But I wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, among whom they were, in whose sight I made myself known unto them, in bringing them forth out of the land of Egypt.
Eze 20:10 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness.
Eze 20:11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.
God was not lenient with Israel because of anything they did. He was protecting His name. The heathen nations would claim He was a God who could not deliver His people. This is why Satan persecutes the woman and her seed, in Revelation. If Satan can destroy Israel, then God isn't the God He claims to be. He swore an oath on His own name.
Read this whole chapter. But focus on what God will endure for His name's sake. Why go through all that? He has foreknowledge. If He knows He will eventually write the nation off, why drag it out? God will deliver Israel for His own name's sake. But He will purge them until the nation is repentant first. His own righteousness demands it.

Rose of Sushan Wrote:The issue is the same as when the people rejected Moses and the Prophets in the Old Covenant. The peoples hardness of hearts gets so bad that it blinds them. It is not God doing the blinding perse.God respects our free will too much and Jesus went to that Cross precisely because we do have free will and we can choose.To enter into the New Covenant we freely use our free will to ask God to change our hearts.We die to self. Jesus pays the price of our redemption so salvation and to enter into the New Covenant is available to all.But to enter in is an individual choice.

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Paul doesn't say Israel choose blindness. He says God gave blindness to them. And Jesus kept them in the dark by speaking in parables [Mt 13:10-11]. There is a vail still upon their hearts [2 Cor 3:15]. They did not know what they were doing [Lk 23:34].
Israel committed a sin of ignorance. And Jesus came to fulfill the law.

Lev 4:13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty;
Lev 4:14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.

The law requires that Israel must understand it sinned in ignorance before paying any price for that sin. Jesus has already forven Israel because she knew not what she was doing. This point is already settled by the judge Himself. That isn't me excusing Israel. Jesus did it.

As for free will, you confusing free will with the consequences it brings.

Paul, in Rom 11:8, quotes from Isaiah.

Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
Isa 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Again, we have the Lord pouring a spirit of sleep on Israel. They are not capable of understanding. But that is the consequence of their exhibiting free will by praising God but teaching the precepts of man. You are making free will and consequence mutaually exclusive concepts. If God does something to them for one wrong, He is taking away their free will? Then how could they ever be judged. It is free will that can bring judgment if not properly applied. Israel didn't develop blindness out of choice. God blinded Israel to His word of truth [Ps 119:142], their schoolmaster, because they chose to create there own law.

[sheep wrecked]

Frank,

A couple of things that I think are missed. The old covenant was *conditional* based on Israel's obedience. It was their choice to obey and live, or disobey and die. They chose to die. Their blindness was chosen - the covenant broken and dissolved. Jeremiah 31:31,32 says brand new covenant, not like the one given at Mt Sinai.

Secondly, God broke the covenant with Israel after they broke it again and again. This is why the new covenant has replaced it.

Zec 11:6 For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD: but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour's hand, and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them.
Zec 11:7 And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.
Zec 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
Zec 11:9 Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.
Zec 11:10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
Zec 11:11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.

[FrankDH]

My apologies, but I do not type. And addressing your posts takes quite a bit of time for me. There are more of you than me, so you will have to be patient. I appreciate the fellowship. I'll answer each post. But I will be slow.

[sheep wrecked]

Quote: Frank:

How is it you can see the insufficiency of sacrificed calves and goats, in Heb 9:12, and not see it is "us" who has obtained eternal redemption?
How is it you can see a second, in Heb 10:9, and not see it is applied to the "we" in verse 10?

Could you please clarify this point. I am not understanding what this is in reference to. In others words, what do you mean by "us" and "we"?

[FrankDH]

sheep wrecked Wrote:I was reminded of another scripture which is quite interesting:

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


According to this passage, Jesus was born King of the Jews. There is no need for a "national salvation", the Jews have had their King for 2000 years - for those who accept Him. The cool thing is that Jesus is not only their King, but also for everyone else who believes in Him

For those who accept Him is key. Your logic for the nation goes just as well for each individual Jew. Jesus came as their king too. But would you say there is no need for their salvation if He did? The thing I don't understand about what you believe is why is it so important to keep the nation from converting? You don't have a problem with individual Jews converting. And you can see numbers of Jews converting as in Pentecost. You just can't see enough of them converting to establish a national conversion. Paul tells us all Israel will be saved and lays out the order in which it happens. That time has not been reached yet. Between now and then God purges the nation of its sinful. It's still a nation. It's just has fewer sinners

---

Vic Wrote:Hi Frank,

You said,
Quote:If Christ's sacrifice bestowed mercy on all of Israel then where is Israel's need to accept Him. The sacrifice is complete. The mercy has been dispensed. Is Israel saved? They don't even understand it was a sacrifice. If they had known it, they wouldn't have sacrificed Jesus [1 Cor 2:8]. Where is the mercy in ignorance of the blessing?

You are making a distinction that need not be made. How many Gentiles have rejected Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord over the ages...a few...thousands...millions?

The distinction was established in the comments I responded to. We were discussing the nation of Israel so I commented on that. The gentiles are a different case. Nothing was hid from them. Paul and company were sent to them with a revelation tailored to fit those who were called.

Vic Wrote:How many Jews...?

How many came to Christ--when He walked the earth...The Jews...including the apostles and the thousands of Jews that believed HIm while the apostles were alive, because of their call to proclaim Him. Jews and Gentiles. Notice that---there were many thousands of Jews who came to Christ...then and through the years. The nation of Israel---as with all nations are not believing, acceptiing or living for Jesus Christ. There is not one nation that does live for Him. Despite attempted claims and false claims to the contrary.

There are individuals from every nation who have come to Christ--worldwide. From Israel, too. Because it is no longer about Israel as a nation, but about Christ and each individual person's belief in, and relationship with, Jesus Christ. The Body of Christ is made up of Jews and Gentiles. Not Jews, Gentiles and something from the future....

God foretold He would purge Israel of her sins. You are telling me He won't purge them because they are sinners. God will purge the nation of Israel of her sinners because what He speaks comes to exist. Those who came to Christ, in the 1st century, along with any Jew that comes to Christ before the fulness of the gentiles, cannot be described as those Jews who remained blind until the fulness iof the gentiles. They are not a part of the blind nation. They are part of the election according to grace.

Vic Wrote:It was always to the Jew first---they were a chosen people first, Christ went to them first, to fulfill prophecy, but He also spoke to Gentiles. And then the apostles went to the Jews first...and then Paul ...went to the Jews first, and then to the Gentiles. Every opportunity has been given to all mankind, including the Jews, to come to Christ. Every person that rejects Him does so by choice--regardless of race or history. Because the cross made a level playing field in that we all have sinned and all fall short of the glory of God. Jews and Gentiles.

Paul didn't go to the Jews first, but that's another topic. Yes, God went to the Jews first. But there is more to that prophecy. Luke says:
Luk 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
Luk 13:30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
The last, the gentiles, enter the kingdom first. And the first, Israel, enters the kingdom last. Israel will repent after God purges the nation of its tin and dross.

Vic Wrote:The New Covenant is based on that truth. This thread is soo off topic, I am not sure exactly where to split it and move this conversation, which is really about understanding the New Covenant and what it means to all mankind. Jew and Gentile. Not Jew, Gentile and Jews of the nation of Israel not converted to Christ-yet....or on equal footing...not Gentiles that have not converted to Christ yet.

Yours is a hard job. That's why I visit boards instead of starting one. The authority is yours. I placed myself under that authority by coming here. However you decide to handle things is fine with me. My post have been mostly responsive in the shaping of the debate. I've attempted a few questions but they were not addressed. So I respond to what I'm asked.

Vic Wrote:The Jews who really believed the Scriptures, the law and the prophets, walked by faith and believed the prophecies and hence, believed Christ. No different than those Gentiles who came to Christ---by faith. And full belief in the truth of the Gospel and the precious promises given in the New Covenant, and those proclaiming His coming. If they had faith, as some had, they would have known Christ was fulfilling the prophecies.

Zechariah 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

Isaiah 53:1-11 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2. For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.[/color]

[color=#1E90FF] Those and many other prophecies were declared and those who believed and had faith, believed Christ.

Those Jews who were given to know accepted Jesus by recognizing He fulfilled prophecy. Those gentiles who were called responded to Paul's revealation and his ministry tailored to the gentiles. Prophecy only confirmed what Paul taught them. They were aliens to the commonwealth God established in the nation of Israel. They did not have the law for a schoolmaster.

Vic Wrote:In the NT it was written about the necessity of the changing of the priesthood and the changing of the law----changing....and focusing on the spiritual, because of Christ.

Hebrews 7:12-19 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13. For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14. For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16. Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. 17. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 18. [b]For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

We are in agreement in as far as you have stated things. There was a definate swith from focus on the letter of the law, to the Spirit of the law, with the change in priesthoods. The issue that separates us is who comes under the changed law. Many have been prevented from know there was a change.

Vic Wrote:Quote: The time for blind Israel to be convicted of sin will come. But it will follow the time God gave them the spirit of slumber.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

But Israel's blindness, like every other purpose of God, has been given a time and season [Eccl 3:1].

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Israel's awakening will occur after the fulness of the gentiles is achieved. No one God has blinded until the fulness of the gentiles comes in can undo what God has done by making a choice they do not know they have.

I bolded a couple of things....blindiness in part has happened--meaning many rejected Christ and many accepted Him.

Exactly. One part of Israel. That part God reserved for Himself, for the fathers' sakes, is the election according to grace. The other part of Israel is blinded to the gospel message and must hear Moses and the prophets before they can see. Then ALL Israel is saved. It's no longer a matter of one part obtains while the other seeks blindly.

Vic Wrote:"The time for blind Israel to be convicted of sin will come".
Yes it will or All Israel could never be saved.


[QUOTE=Vic]
Every single Jew who has come to Christ has been convicted of sin...from the apostles--who were Jewish-- forward. That's why the gospel was preached to their fellow Jews and also Gentiles. Because the partition was removed and all had equal access to Christ and the truth of the Gospel. It was because of the faith like Abraham that many declared they had seen the fulfillment of prophecy in Christ...

Luke 1:68-79 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69. And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70. As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71. That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72. To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73. The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, 74. That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, 75. In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. 76. And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; 77. To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, 78. Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, 79. To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Ephesians 2:15-20 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

It is about Christ Frank, and the truth of the cross and all He did for us--Jew and Gentile. It's not about heritage. It's about the difference between the flesh and the New Jerusalem...spiritual versus the physical. It's about knowing that Christ is sufficient for all mankind, and conviction of the Holy Spirit is for all mankind. If it wasn't then there would not be one Jew who accepted Christ...right from 33 AD forward. Not one would have known Him, or could.

Again I agree in as far as you have stated. What is key to our differences can be found in your words. "It's about knowing...". That's prerequisite to acceptance. Israel has been blinded to this fact. They don't know. Their blinness must be lifted to know. They will be convicted of their sins after the blindness is lifted. And that conviction will lead to Christ. He is the only door.

Vic Wrote:Paul, a Jew, wrote:

Romans 11:5-7 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded..

In other words...those who had ears to hear and hearts that desire truth...then, throughout the years...and today...will belong to Christ. Those who don't...both Jew and Gentile....won't.

I still agree. But the verses you choose to offer do not address when all Israel becomes saved. Verses 25 and 26 do. After the fulness of the gentiles, those who were blinded will hear and see. And all Israel will be saved. It's a direct statement.

[FrankDH]

sheep wrecked Wrote:Could you please clarify this point. I am not understanding what this is in reference to. In others words, what do you mean by "us" and "we"?

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
If I understand the position held here, people believe everyone received freedom from law when the second covenant came into play. No one any longer is bound by the law. And they keep showing me proof texts where the authors are addressing believers and saying these things apply to "we" or "us". The author isn't saying all of mankind has been freed from law. No verse ever says that. They all have some personal pronoun in the passage that limits this freedom to the reborn. For instance, the "we" in Heb 10:10 refers to who were sanctified by through Christ's sacrifice.
ἁγιάζω
hagiazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow
2) to separate from profane things and dedicate to God
2a) consecrate things to God
2b) dedicate people to God
3) to purify
3a) to cleanse externally
3b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
3c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G40
Citing in TDNT: 1:111, 14
Which of Israel's unsaved would fit any of the definitions of sanctified? I know of none. This passage does not pertained to those who do not accept Jesus. It is not proof that all of mankind was freed from law when Jesus was crucified. His sarifice was a universal invitation. But no change took effect for the individual that did not accept the invitation to eternal life and freedom from the bonds of the law. The law is ready to vanish because all have the opportunity for salvation. If all accepted Christ, judgment of our sins would not be required because Jesus paid that price. Judgment is a demand of law. There are two ways the law can finally vanish. Judgment demanded by law gets fulfilled or the need for judgment ceases because all have accepted the opportunity of salvation. The unsaved are not freed from law unless the become reborn into a new man not under the law.
`

sheep wrecked Wrote:Frank,

A couple of things that I think are missed. The old covenant was *conditional* based on Israel's obedience. It was their choice to obey and live, or disobey and die. They chose to die. Their blindness was chosen - the covenant broken and dissolved. Jeremiah 31:31,32 says brand new covenant, not like the one given at Mt Sinai.

Secondly, God broke the covenant with Israel after they broke it again and again. This is why the new covenant has replaced it.

Zec 11:6 For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD: but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour's hand, and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them.
Zec 11:7 And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.
Zec 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
Zec 11:9 Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.
Zec 11:10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
Zec 11:11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.

If you believe this is the point where God cast Israel off for good, will you answer some questions for me?
Why, in the very next chapter does Zechariah show the Lord delivering this very same nation? Is Zec 12 about Christ's 1st advent?
When, during Jesus' ministry did :
1] Jerusalem come under seige by surrounding nations [Zec 12:2]?
2] Jesus smites a bunch of horses and riders with madness [Zec 12:4]?
3] The governors of Judah devour all the people round about them [Zec 12:6]?
There's more but you get the point. Zec 12 isn't talking about Christ's 1st advent. So why does Zec show Israel being delivered after God has cast them off permantly as a bnation? Do you believe the chapters in this book are in the wrong order?
Look centuries into the future. How does Jesus fulfill a covenant of Law that no longer exists? I've been told the Law ended with the destruction of the temple. Why did Jesus attend a passover meal? It was a matter of long gone law.
And let's say we found verses that prove law ended then, or at the cross, or when the temple fell. How does that prevent Israel from inheriting the land? The law does not establish the inheritance. Gal 3:16-18 says if the law established the promise it would not be a promise. You could end the law the day it was delivered and the promise would still be sure.

[sheep wrecked]

(06-22-2009 03:19 AM)FrankDH Wrote:  

sheep wrecked Wrote:Could you please clarify this point. I am not understanding what this is in reference to. In others words, what do you mean by "us" and "we"?

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
If I understand the position held here, people believe everyone received freedom from law when the second covenant came into play. No one any longer is bound by the law. And they keep showing me proof texts where the authors are addressing believers and saying these things apply to "we" or "us". The author isn't saying all of mankind has been freed from law. No verse ever says that. They all have some personal pronoun in the passage that limits this freedom to the reborn. For instance, the "we" in Heb 10:10 refers to who were sanctified by through Christ's sacrifice.

Quote:If you believe this is the point where God cast Israel off for good, will you answer some questions for me?
Why, in the very next chapter does Zechariah show the Lord delivering this very same nation? Is Zec 12 about Christ's 1st advent?
When, during Jesus' ministry did :
1] Jerusalem come under seige by surrounding nations [Zec 12:2]?
2] Jesus smites a bunch of horses and riders with madness [Zec 12:4]?
3] The governors of Judah devour all the people round about them [Zec 12:6]?
There's more but you get the point. Zec 12 isn't talking about Christ's 1st advent. So why does Zec show Israel being delivered after God has cast them off permantly as a bnation? Do you believe the chapters in this book are in the wrong order?
Look centuries into the future. How does Jesus fulfill a covenant of Law that no longer exists? I've been told the Law ended with the destruction of the temple. Why did Jesus attend a passover meal? It was a matter of long gone law.
And let's say we found verses that prove law ended then, or at the cross, or when the temple fell. How does that prevent Israel from inheriting the land? The law does not establish the inheritance. Gal 3:16-18 says if the law established the promise it would not be a promise. You could end the law the day it was delivered and the promise would still be sure.

God broke the covenant, Frank, but it did not go into effect until Jesus arrived. Yes, Israel was still under that provision of Law UNTIL Christ - that was the grace of God. Once Jesus came, it was fulfilled and vanished away. You are comparing law to covenant and they are not separate but one. The Law was the old covenant aka The Levitical system aka the sacrifice of animals for sin. It is no more. Jesus is now the High Priest of the order of Melchy aka the New Covenant of His blood.

Please understand that Jesus fulfilled ALL of the OT law and prophets. This is where people get tripped up, I think. The New Covenant is spiritual, the old covenant was physical/carnal/death.

I think the problem is that people try to conceptualize these things into a time frame that seems to fit into their own understanding. God does not have a human time frame. He sees the beginning from the end. Revelations tells us that Jesus was the Lamb slain from the beginning of the world.

[FrankDH]

sheep wrecked Wrote:God broke the covenant, Frank, but it did not go into effect until Jesus arrived. Yes, Israel was still under that provision of Law UNTIL Christ - that was the grace of God. Once Jesus came, it was fulfilled and vanished away. You are comparing law to covenant and they are not separate but one. The Law was the old covenant aka The Levitical system aka the sacrifice of animals for sin. It is no more. Jesus is now the High Priest of the order of Melchy aka the New Covenant of His blood.

Please understand that Jesus fulfilled ALL of the OT law and prophets. This is where people get tripped up, I think. The New Covenant is spiritual, the old covenant was physical/carnal/death.

I think the problem is that people try to conceptualize these things into a time frame that seems to fit into their own understanding. God does not have a human time frame. He sees the beginning from the end. Revelations tells us that Jesus was the Lamb slain from the beginning of the world.

"God broke the covenant, Frank, but it did not go into effect until Jesus arrived." "I think the problem is that people try to conceptualize these things into a time frame that seems to fit into their own understanding.

You just did this. There are no verses that said God broke the covenant and then waited centuries for the effect to happen. But your understanding is He did so you adjust things to the timeframe you see. Hebrews teaches the law is only ready to vanish well after Jesus came and returned to heaven.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

1] "Once Jesus came, it was fulfilled and vanished away."
2] "Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. "

Which of these statements is the inspired word of God? It has an impact on what we are to believe. Are you saying what the Hebrews heard? I'm not conceptualizing anything here. I'm taking what I hear you say and holding it up to scripture. And scripture doesn't say law ended when Jesus came. It says it was still there after He left.


Jesus didn't fulfill the Levitical system. He wasn't a Levite. He was of the tribe of Judah. Hebrews teaches this after Jesus came and went too.

Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

You equate fulfillment of the law with the destruction of the law. Jesus didn't.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

There is no transgression without law.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

But judgment is based on law and will be applicable in the future.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

[sheep wrecked]

(06-22-2009 02:27 PM)FrankDH Wrote:  "God broke the covenant, Frank, but it did not go into effect until Jesus arrived." "I think the problem is that people try to conceptualize these things into a time frame that seems to fit into their own understanding.

You just did this. There are no verses that said God broke the covenant and then waited centuries for the effect to happen. But your understanding is He did so you adjust things to the timeframe you see. Hebrews teaches the law is only ready to vanish well after Jesus came and returned to heaven.

1] "Once Jesus came, it was fulfilled and vanished away."
2] "Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. "

Which of these statements is the inspired word of God? It has an impact on what we are to believe. Are you saying what the Hebrews heard? I'm not conceptualizing anything here. I'm taking what I hear you say and holding it up to scripture. And scripture doesn't say law ended when Jesus came. It says it was still there after He left.

Perhaps you forgot that God prophesied that Jesus would come - 4,000 yrs before He was actually born.

God said that He broke the covenant. Did God lie? The ark of the covenant was gone. The presence of God had left Israel. The old covenant only remained in "name only" until Christ. That is simple "math". The blessings of the old covenant were also useless and what remained were the curses.

The law and prophets remained until John, and then "poof" - outta here

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Jesus preached the Kingdom of God, not the Law of Moses. People kept the Law, but Jesus was showing that His Law replaced it. His Law shows sin, by the way. The NT is full of it. Read Gal 5 just for starters.


Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth [G3822] and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The tense here is present. It is passing away because it is waxing old and decaying. A decaying Law is dead/worn out.

decay

G3822
παλαιόω
palaioō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make ancient or old
1a) to become old, to be worn out
1b) of things worn out by time and use
2) to declare a thing to be old and so about to be abrogated
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3820

G3820
παλαιός
palaios
Thayer Definition:
1) old, ancient
2) no longer new, worn by use, the worse for wear, old
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3819

G3819
πάλαι
palai
Thayer Definition:
1) of old, former
2) long ago

Quote:Jesus didn't fulfill the Levitical system. He wasn't a Levite. He was of the tribe of Judah. Hebrews teaches this after Jesus came and went too.

Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

You equate fulfillment of the law with the destruction of the law. Jesus didn't.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

There is no transgression without law.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

But judgment is based on law and will be applicable in the future.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Jesus fulfilled the Law - that was the point of Matt 5:17-21. He did not abolish the Law, He fulfilled it. He said "It is Finished" and the veil of the Temple was rent in two. That was the end of the old covenant, which was the Levitical system. The Levitical system was based on blood atonement with the blood of animals. That system is gone.

There is only one priesthood, not two. Jesus replaced the Levitical system, which meant death for the old covenant. As I mentioned before - there is no ark of the covenant - it is GONE.

Let's look at Hebrews:

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.


There was transgression before the Law. The book of Genesis is full of transgression and why God destroyed the world by a flood, but saved Noah and his family. That was a mighty huge judgment on the transgression of the law of sin don't you think?



Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 which my Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

[FrankDH]

sheep wrecked Wrote:(Today 02:27 PM)FrankDH Wrote: "God broke the covenant, Frank, but it did not go into effect until Jesus arrived." "I think the problem is that people try to conceptualize these things into a time frame that seems to fit into their own understanding.

You just did this. There are no verses that said God broke the covenant and then waited centuries for the effect to happen. But your understanding is He did so you adjust things to the timeframe you see. Hebrews teaches the law is only ready to vanish well after Jesus came and returned to heaven.

1] "Once Jesus came, it was fulfilled and vanished away."
2] "Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. "

Which of these statements is the inspired word of God? It has an impact on what we are to believe. Are you saying what the Hebrews heard? I'm not conceptualizing anything here. I'm taking what I hear you say and holding it up to scripture. And scripture doesn't say law ended when Jesus came. It says it was still there after He left.

Perhaps you forgot that God prophesied that Jesus would come - 4,000 yrs before He was actually born.

No, my doctrine allows for this prophecy.

sheep wrecked Wrote:God said that He broke the covenant. Did God lie? The ark of the covenant was gone. The presence of God had left Israel. The old covenant only remained in "name only" until Christ. That is simple "math". The blessings of the old covenant were also useless and what remained were the curses.

What threat is there in a curse that remains in name only. You keep contradicting yourself. You want to say the law is gone but you preserve it too. You can't see it because you don't test what you believe. When a question is posed that you have no answer for you just advance your arguement through a different point.

sheep wrecked Wrote:The law and prophets remained until John, and then "poof" - outta here

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Jesus was a prophet even after John's ministry. Your side of this debate has even emphasized that Jesus was a greater prophet than Moses. And Paul shows the law only ready to vanish after Jesus' ministry. So the law and prophets did not end with John the baptist. So far, I've been told that the law vanished 1] when Jesus began to preach the kingdom, ]2 when Jesus died on the cross, 3] when the temple fell and there was no more Levitical priesthood.4] when Jesus established a new priesthood. I'm told one thing in one instance and another later. No one has a verse that verifies any of this. A Berean wouldn't accept this and neither do I.

sheep wrecked Wrote:Jesus preached the Kingdom of God, not the Law of Moses. People kept the Law, but Jesus was showing that His Law replaced it. His Law shows sin, by the way. The NT is full of it. Read Gal 5 just for starters.


Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth [G3822] and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The tense here is present. It is passing away because it is waxing old and decaying. A decaying Law is dead/worn out.

decay

G3822
παλαιόω
palaioō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make ancient or old
1a) to become old, to be worn out
1b) of things worn out by time and use
2) to declare a thing to be old and so about to be abrogated
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3820

G3820
παλαιός
palaios
Thayer Definition:
1) old, ancient
2) no longer new, worn by use, the worse for wear, old
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3819

G3819
πάλαι
palai
Thayer Definition:
1) of old, former
2) long ago

Not one of these definitions says ended, ceased, disappeared. And that's been my point from the beginning. You can pick any number of instances where you think it ends. But you have no verse to verify any of it. And scripture states it was only ready to vanish.

sheep wrecked Wrote:Quote:Jesus didn't fulfill the Levitical system. He wasn't a Levite. He was of the tribe of Judah. Hebrews teaches this after Jesus came and went too.

Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

You equate fulfillment of the law with the destruction of the law. Jesus didn't.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

There is no transgression without law.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

But judgment is based on law and will be applicable in the future.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Jesus fulfilled the Law - that was the point of Matt 5:17-21. He did not abolish the Law, He fulfilled it. He said "It is Finished" and the veil of the Temple was rent in two. That was the end of the old covenant, which was the Levitical system. The Levitical system was based on blood atonement with the blood of animals. That system is gone.

There is only one priesthood, not two. Jesus replaced the Levitical system, which meant death for the old covenant. As I mentioned before - there is no ark of the covenant - it is GONE.


Let's look at Hebrews:

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.


There was transgression before the Law. The book of Genesis is full of transgression and why God destroyed the world by a flood, but saved Noah and his family. That was a mighty huge judgment on the transgression of the law of sin don't you think?

There was no transgression of the law before there was law. There has been sin since Adam. The word transgress, in all its forms [past tense, or future, plural or singular] does not appear in the word until after the law was given. And no sin before the law can change Rom 4:15. Man is born corrupt due to Adam's sin. He has no ability to understand what it takes to please God. God gave law so man could recognize sin. That is the point at which the law could be transgressed. And law will be enforced on judgment day, for those who have not become exempt through Jesus Christ. Works are judged. That's law.

sheep wrecked Wrote:Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 which my Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The covenant you think this is doesn't eliminate the teaching "know the Lord". The great commission proves that. This thread already has enough tangents. Unless you just want to pursue this, I'd rather not go there. I can, and will if you insist. But it would be better left to a separate thread.