Who is "All" Israel in the New Covenant?

[aahavaa]

Jewish people are back in the land today in large numbers as before.Is this the return then that Deuteronomy speaks of because they seem to be in a much less repentant frame of mind than when they returned from Babylon.

Today Israel is a secular state and Torah is not the Law of the Land. In Ezra's and Nehemiah's time the people that returned repented and promised to obey with fervent hearts.

I find the theories confusing because if the scenario is meant to be Israel is back in her land and her heart is circumcised to obey the Sinai commandments how does this fit in with what the New Testament teaches on how the new covenant is eternal.Would God then be pleased with this, if he says it is no longer by the blood of bull and goats but that the only eternal perfect sacrifice is Jesus.How could this be a fulfillment of prophecy when the NT is teaching us otherwise.
Frank ,how do you see Israel being back today in the Middle East land fitting in with what you think is going to happen?

[FrankDH]

Rose of Sushan Wrote:The covenant that involved the land was the Sinai Covenant.However God knew all along that eventually the people would break the covenant and after much patience and long sufferingness Jesus would come to usher in the New Covenant.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; my covenant which they broke, although I was a husband unto them, says the LORD:

The covenant of Law is not the basis for Israel's inheritance of the land. That results from a covenant with Abraham. God swore by Himself that promise would be fulfilled. That insures complete fulfillment. And that promise includes eternal possession of the land. The same land Israel returned to everytime God fetched them from a captivity. But they have yet to possess it permanently. They will or God swore by Himself in vain.
But what does any of that have to do with the point I was making by bringing up Nehemiah's and Daniel's requests of God? These requests are not a confirmation that Deut 30:1-6 has been fulfilled.

Rose of Sushan Wrote:So the Covenant to do with land is broken,it has been superceded by a covenant based on better promises


Heb 8:6 But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he says, Behold, the days come, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:13 In that he says, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and grows old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

If you expect Israel to be in the land to stay like you said, that would be in accordance with the first covenant, which is not something that the NT supports at all as we see from the verses I just posted and many more that we can see.The

The verses you just posted show the law old and ready to vanish. Not the law's demise. In these verses two covenants are mentioned. One old one, not yet vanished, and a new one. That old one demands a Levitical priesthood. That new one demands a different priesthood of the order of Melchizedek.

It isn't a matter of Israel thinking the law still exists and placing themselves under something that isn't really there. It is Israel being blind to the new covenant until the fulness of the gentiles comes in. And therefore never gaining the freedom from the law the new covenant offers. Instead of seeing something that isn't there, it is not seeing what is.

Rose of Sushan Wrote:Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should later receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing where he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from which they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he has prepared for them a city.

Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him outside the camp, bearing his reproach.
Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

That portion of Israel that has been blinded has not yet obtained the faith of Abraham [or these others]. They have not seen afar off, became persuaded, embraced and confessed they are strangers on the planet. They are not a part of the "we" in Heb 13:14.

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:The verses you just posted show the law old and ready to vanish. Not the law's demise. In these verses two covenants are mentioned. One old one, not yet vanished, and a new one. That old one demands a Levitical priesthood. That new one demands a different priesthood of the order of Melchizedek.

At the time of writing yes..the Temple System was still in effect,though not for long as we know retrospectively. Now if something is ready to vanish and then it vanishes..wouldnt you say that it had demised.To vanish is to be no more to to be gone.Old and ready to vanish means it will soon no longer exist. Demised right.
So if you agree that there are two different covenants with different priesthoods what was your point there? There cannot be the same laws for both because one is to deal with the fact that the previous had laws which were causing the people to incur curses upon themselves due to their repeated disobedience of its commands.So God makes a better one,not like the old and based on better promises. The verses I posted from Hebrews show that.

Quote:The covenant of Law is not the basis for Israel's inheritance of the land. That results from a covenant with Abraham. God swore by Himself that promise would be fulfilled. That insures complete fulfillment. And that promise includes eternal possession of the land. The same land Israel returned to everytime God fetched them from a captivity. But they have yet to possess it permanently. They will or God swore by Himself in vain.

Exo 6:4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, in which they were strangers.
Exo 6:5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.
Exo 6:6 Therefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm, and with great judgments:
Exo 6:7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and you shall know that I am the LORD your God, who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
Exo 6:8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it to you for a heritage: I am the LORD.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should later receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing where he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from which they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he has prepared for them a city.

When I read all those verses what I see there is that the earthly travails of Abraham and the patriarchs were shadows of what the eternal reality would be like. And that reality is not sacrificing animals in order to gain atonement and depending on an earthly high priest of the line of aaron.Do you see what I mean.
The promise of the land was also conditional.Have read all of all the curses that they would incur if they didn’t keep the covenant.Why do some people concentrate only on the blessings and not on the curses?

[FrankDH]

Rose of Shushan Wrote:At the time of writing yes..the Temple System was still in effect,though not for long as we know retrospectively. Now if something is ready to vanish and then it vanishes..wouldnt you say that it had demised.To vanish is to be no more to to be gone.Old and ready to vanish means it will soon no longer exist. Demised right.

When the law does vanish, it will be gone. Demise, yes. Where we differ is you look to man's accounts of history [destruction of the temple system] as guidance to when this happens. Scripture never says that is the time. This is why you are ready to embrace partial fulfillments of Deut 30. The point at which you end the law leaves no room for a future and complete fulfillment of Deut 30. So some of the detail found in scripture must fall to the timing of Jerusalem's destruction and Israel never gets the full benefit of the oath God swore by Himself to Abraham. I do not accept that any historic event can limit how much of what God says He will do actually happens. And I believe He will do everything He says. History is not the inspired text I rely on. If it leads to a conclusion that causes any part of God's declarations to not happen, then that history is being misapplied, IMO.

Rose of Shushan Wrote:So if you agree that there are two different covenants with different priesthoods what was your point there? There cannot be the same laws for both because one is to deal with the fact that the previous had laws which were causing the people to incur curses upon themselves due to their repeated disobedience of its commands.So God makes a better one,not like the old and based on better promises. The verses I posted from Hebrews show that.

I do not see the same laws for both. I see a better covenant for those who understand the lessons of Israel's schoolmaster and come to Christ. And I see the old still in place for those who are blind to a message of one who rose from the grave because they are blind to it.

Israel's awakening to what law teaches takes place in Deut 30. She faces a life or death choice. She will not see the rules and ordinances of the law she has concentrated on to condemn, as in the past. Her need is mercy. She will see the steps the law provides for repentance. Those same prayers that Nehemiah and Daniel prayed will become the prayers of the nation. The fulness of the gentiles is past, by this time. She will be allowed to see again. Then she can accept Jesus as Messiah and come under the new covenant. And Jesus will return to deliver her and judge mankind. Law demands judgment. It does not vanish until judgment puts it to rest.

Rose of Shushan Wrote:Exo 6:4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, in which they were strangers.
Exo 6:5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.
Exo 6:6 Therefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm, and with great judgments:
Exo 6:7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and you shall know that I am the LORD your God, who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
Exo 6:8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it to you for a heritage: I am the LORD.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should later receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing where he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from which they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he has prepared for them a city.

When I read all those verses what I see there is that the earthly travails of Abraham and the patriarchs were shadows of what the eternal reality would be like. And that reality is not sacrificing animals in order to gain atonement and depending on an earthly high priest of the line of aaron.Do you see what I mean.

The promise of the land was also conditional.Have read all of all the curses that they would incur if they didn’t keep the covenant.Why do some people concentrate only on the blessings and not on the curses?

Everyone has to resolve these matters in their own mind. If this is what you see, embracve it. To do otherwise would be to reject the guidance you see.

I do not find a statement saying Abraham's trials foreshadowed a time without sacrifice. But I do see where the sacrifices of the law foreshadow the sacrifice that Jesus would provide.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Abraham saw this when he took Isaac to the mount to be sacrificed. He told Isaac God would provide a lamb. OT sacrifice is the foreshadowing of when the perfect Lamb of God would satisfy the requirements of law.
God swore by Himself in a covenant with Abraham before Abraham knew the name of Jehovah [Ex 6:3].

Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
Heb 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
Heb 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

Take a look at that word "confirmed", in v 17.

Confirmed (ἐμεσίτευσεν)
Rend. interposed or mediated. Comp. μεσίτης mediator. From μέσος midst. Placed himself between himself and the heritors of the promise.

God placed Himself between Himself and the inheritors of the promise. He did this through Jesus Christ. Jesus' ministry was intercessory in nature. That's why He is called the way, the door, the mediator, the advocate, etc. These are all functions of Jesus insuring that the oath His Father took would be brought to pass.

Law was a needed result of the promise. Not an end, but rather a means by which the promise could be fulfilled. Jesus had to become the atonement for sin if the promise was kept. The law had to be instituted so a sacrifice could be met. Law didn't introduce the possibility the promise wouldn't be completely fulfilled. It insured it could be.

---

aahavaa Wrote:Jewish people are back in the land today in large numbers as before.Is this the return then that Deuteronomy speaks of because they seem to be in a much less repentant frame of mind than when they returned from Babylon.

Today Israel is a secular state and Torah is not the Law of the Land. In Ezra's and Nehemiah's time the people that returned repented and promised to obey with fervent hearts.

I find the theories confusing because if the scenario is meant to be Israel is back in her land and her heart is circumcised to obey the Sinai commandments how does this fit in with what the New Testament teaches on how the new covenant is eternal.Would God then be pleased with this, if he says it is no longer by the blood of bull and goats but that the only eternal perfect sacrifice is Jesus.How could this be a fulfillment of prophecy when the NT is teaching us otherwise.
Frank ,how do you see Israel being back today in the Middle East land fitting in with what you think is going to happen?

Israel is not in the land, today, in fulfillment of Deut 30.

Compare these passages:
Ezekiel
20:33 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
20:34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
20:35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
20:36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.
20:37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
20:38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

AND

Ezekiel
22:17 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
22:18 Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver.
22:19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.
22:20 As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you.
22:21 Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.
22:22 As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.

In these verses, Jews are gathered out of dispersion and into Jerusalem, in unbelief. They are not gathered there to receive possession of the land for eternity. They are gathered their to be purged of their tin and dross. That is why Israel is a nation today. During the 70th week they will experience the travails that purge them of their rebels [pass under the rod]. The remainging nation, facing their own extinction, will then recall the blessing and curse that Moses spoke of in Deut 30 and repent, returning to the law [brought under the bonds of the covenant]. Israel will finally understand the lesson her schoolmaster, the law, has for her, and will finally be able to be effected by thoughts of one who rose from the grave. But she must hear Moses and the prophets first. Only then will Israel be prepared to meet the king she waits for, and accept He is the one they crucified.

Nice to meet you.

[sheep wrecked]

Quote:Frank:
I do not see the same laws for both. I see a better covenant for those who understand the lessons of Israel's schoolmaster and come to Christ. And I see the old still in place for those who are blind to a message of one who rose from the grave because they are blind to it.

The old covenant is no more. It was broken and replaced with the New Covenant. The Mosaic Law was the covenant to Israel and when Israel refused to be obedient to it, and turned rebellious time after time, they incurred the curses of the Law.

Jeremiah 31:31,32 tells us that the old covenant was done away with and that God was giving a New Covenant *not like* the old covenant.

When Hebrews explains this in chapter 8, the writer shows that the old covenant is built on better promises - spiritual ones. This means that the physical promises of the old covenant are no longer valid and have passed away. Israel never received the inheritance in full because of their rebellion and God broke that covenant. They did return to the land for a short time after the dispersion.

Quote:Frank:
Israel's awakening to what law teaches takes place in Deut 30. She faces a life or death choice. She will not see the rules and ordinances of the law she has concentrated on to condemn, as in the past. Her need is mercy. She will see the steps the law provides for repentance. Those same prayers that Nehemiah and Daniel prayed will become the prayers of the nation. The fulness of the gentiles is past, by this time. She will be allowed to see again. Then she can accept Jesus as Messiah and come under the new covenant. And Jesus will return to deliver her and judge mankind. Law demands judgment. It does not vanish until judgment puts it to rest.

Mercy has already been given to Israel --- In Christ - He came for the lost house of Israel. Paul was sent to the whole house of Israel to preach the Gospel. When they rejected Christ, then Paul turned to the gentiles.

Joh 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Joh 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
Joh 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
Joh 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.


The Law can no longer bring her to repentance because the old covenant is no longer in effect. The nation of Israel is secular. It is not a chosen nation any longer. There is only one "nation" - those who are in Christ Jesus. Eph 2 explains that all nations are joined with Israel as *one new man* in Christ who now belong to family of God. Phil 3 also states that we are part of the citizenship of Heaven. Hebrews 11 shows us that the promised land is no longer a physical property, but a Heavenly one aka the New Jerusalem brought down out of Heaven [Rev 21].

Quote:Law was a needed result of the promise. Not an end, but rather a means by which the promise could be fulfilled. Jesus had to become the atonement for sin if the promise was kept. The law had to be instituted so a sacrifice could be met. Law didn't introduce the possibility the promise wouldn't be completely fulfilled. It insured it could be.

Actually, the Law was not needed as a result of the promise. The promise of Christ came through the Abrahamic covenant. The old covenant or Mosaic Law was a pattern of Christ, and a shadow of Heavenly things which prophetically spoke of Him and His sacrifice. The old covenant was a sacrificial Levitical system which was replaced by Christ, the once and for all atonement for sin - the High Priesthood of the Melchizedek Priesthood. The New Covenant replaced the promises of the old covenant in that they were better and what is better caused the old to vanish away.

Quote:Frank:
In these verses, Jews are gathered out of dispersion and into Jerusalem, in unbelief. They are not gathered there to receive possession of the land for eternity. They are gathered their to be purged of their tin and dross. That is why Israel is a nation today. During the 70th week they will experience the travails that purge them of their rebels [pass under the rod]. The remainging nation, facing their own extinction, will then recall the blessing and curse that Moses spoke of in Deut 30 and repent, returning to the law [brought under the bonds of the covenant]. Israel will finally understand the lesson her schoolmaster, the law, has for her, and will finally be able to be effected by thoughts of one who rose from the grave. But she must hear Moses and the prophets first. Only then will Israel be prepared to meet the king she waits for, and accept He is the one they crucified.

The only one that keeps Israel under the Law is herself. God has already provided a way for her captivity to be broken --- in Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin.

The Mt of transfiguration - God did not say to first listen to Moses and then Jesus, He said - Listen to Jesus. Jesus came as a greater Prophet than Moses, one that Israel must listen to rather than him. Jesus also said that Israel did not believe Moses and the prophets and therefore would not believe Him. Jesus fulfilled all the law and the prophets [Luke 24]. Israel, as a nation, will never accept Christ. Israel is a secular nation whose spirituality is based in Rabbinical Talmudism, not the Law of Moses.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 [color=#9400D3]But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.


Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Heb 3:2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
Heb 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


As Isaiah prophesied, only a third of the Israel would ever accept Christ. Paul speaks of a remnant, not the whole nation. I think this is not understood adequately. The old covenant is gone, only the New remains and the only way for one to be included in the New is in Christ. Each person must believe in Christ - it is not a national covenant, but an individual one.

Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

[FrankDH]

sheep wrecked Wrote:The old covenant is no more. It was broken and replaced with the New Covenant. The Mosaic Law was the covenant to Israel and when Israel refused to be obedient to it, and turned rebellious time after time, they incurred the curses of the Law.

Jeremiah 31:31,32 tells us that the old covenant was done away with and that God was giving a New Covenant *not like* the old covenant.

When Hebrews explains this in chapter 8, the writer shows that the old covenant is built on better promises - spiritual ones. This means that the physical promises of the old covenant are no longer valid and have passed away. Israel never received the inheritance in full because of their rebellion and God broke that covenant. They did return to the land for a short time after the dispersion.

While scripture clearly teaches we are familiarize ourselves with what is written, it gives us very few guidelines on how to actually study. That makes those instructions that are given critical. We are to be Berean like in our studies. That means listen to what is said, but verify, in scripture, what you keep.

You tell me the covenant was broken. I can find verses that verify that. So, I agree. But you tell me the covenant is no more. Nowhere do I find God saying this. And the latest info I have, in the Word, is that law is old and ready to vanish. I can go beyond that with assumptions that I can pinpoint when it does vanish. But without the verses to verify it I'm just creating man's doctrine.

How many times did Israel break the covent with God? We know He allowed them to become captive to Assyria. And that He delivered them out of that captivity. We know He allowed them to go captive to Babylon, and they were delivered, after breaking the covenant. If Israel, breaking the covenant, puts an end to the covenant, then how did Israel break it a second time? There is nothing to break. It would begone by virtue of being broken. God's law work's like man's law in one respect. Breaking the law doesn't eliminate the law. It only makes you punishable under the law. You have to be freed from law through exemption. Acceptance of Jesus, as savior, is the only means of gaining exemption from the law.

sheep wrecked Wrote:Mercy has already been given to Israel --- In Christ - He came for the lost house of Israel. Paul was sent to the whole house of Israel to preach the Gospel. When they rejected Christ, then Paul turned to the gentiles.

Joh 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Joh 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
Joh 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
Joh 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.


The Law can no longer bring her to repentance because the old covenant is no longer in effect. The nation of Israel is secular. It is not a chosen nation any longer. There is only one "nation" - those who are in Christ Jesus. Eph 2 explains that all nations are joined with Israel as *one new man* in Christ who now belong to family of God. Phil 3 also states that we are part of the citizenship of Heaven. Hebrews 11 shows us that the promised land is no longer a physical property, but a Heavenly one aka the New Jerusalem brought down out of Heaven [Rev 21].

If Christ's sacrifice bestowed mercy on all of Israel then where is Israel's need to accept Him. The sacrifice is complete. The mercy has been dispensed. Is Israel saved? They don't even understand it was a sacrifice. If they had known it, they wouldn't have sacrificed Jesus [1 Cor 2:8]. Where is the mercy in ignorance of the blessing?

If your child needed a kidney to live. And I was the only match. And I was willing to give it. But kept you from knowing I would. Would I have shown you, or your child mercy?

Scripture is clear on the steps that Jesus took to keep some unaware of the mysteries of the kingdom. Jesus acknowledge they didn't know when He told the Father to forgive them. Paul tells us, in one direct statement, that they wouldn't have crucified Him if they knew, and in another they are enemies of the gospel until the fulness of the gentiles comes in. The fact that Israel is secular today is a direct result of the blindness that has happened to Israel for the sake of the rest of the world.

sheep wrecked Wrote:Actually, the Law was not needed as a result of the promise. The promise of Christ came through the Abrahamic covenant. The old covenant or Mosaic Law was a pattern of Christ, and a shadow of Heavenly things which prophetically spoke of Him and His sacrifice. The old covenant was a sacrificial Levitical system which was replaced by Christ, the once and for all atonement for sin - the High Priesthood of the Melchizedek Priesthood. The New Covenant replaced the promises of the old covenant in that they were better and what is better caused the old to vanish away.

The law was a neccessity of the promise. In the promise to eternally possess the land comes the implication of eternal life so it can be possessed eternally. But eternal life could not happen until Jesus rose from the dead. Christ's sacrifice was a demand of the law.

sheep wrecked Wrote:The only one that keeps Israel under the Law is herself. God has already provided a way for her captivity to be broken --- in Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin.

Conviction of sins is not the only office the Spirit holds. He also impliments God's plan on God's schedule. The time for blind Israel to be convicted of sin will come. But it will follow the time God gave them the spirit of slumber.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

But Israel's blindness, like every other purpose of God, has been given a time and season [Eccl 3:1].

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Israel's awakening will occur after the fulness of the gentiles is achieved. No one God has blinded until the fulness of the gentiles comes in can undo what God has done by making a choice they do not know they have.

sheep wrecked Wrote:The Mt of transfiguration - God did not say to first listen to Moses and then Jesus, He said - Listen to Jesus. Jesus came as a greater Prophet than Moses, one that Israel must listen to rather than him. Jesus also said that Israel did not believe Moses and the prophets and therefore would not believe Him. Jesus fulfilled all the law and the prophets [Luke 24].

There was no need of mention of hearing Moses at the transfiguration. The entire hearing audience had already accepted Jesus as God's Son. Your arguement ignores the context.

Jesus did come as a prophet like Moses. And Israel must hear Jesus, and accept Him, to live eternally. But they must awaken to that possiblity first. They must learn the lessons their schoolmaster teaches them to understand there is a possiblity to accept.

sheep wrecked Wrote:Israel, as a nation, will never accept Christ. Israel is a secular nation whose spirituality is based in Rabbinical Talmudism, not the Law of Moses.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 [color=#9400D3]But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

I wonder if one of the times Israel strayed, by chasing idols, if anyone said "Israel, as a nation, will never receive deliverance. Israel is a froward nation whose spirituality is based in idolatry, not the Law of Moses." And then, after they said it, God delivered the nation. Their logic is exactly the same as yours. But they repented as time passed.
The vail that still remains on the hearts of those who have been blinded When the fulness of the gentiles comes in, that vail will be lifted. The vail, for them, exists as long as God has blinded them. When they hear, and understand the scriptures, after the fulness of the gentiles is complete, the blindness ends, and they too will know the vail has removed.

Yes, only a remnant will enter the kingdom. But by that time Israel has been purged of her rebels in the trails of the 70th week. The nation is the remnant. The rebels are purged and gone.

sheep wrecked Wrote:Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Heb 3:2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
Heb 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


As Isaiah prophesied, only a third of the Israel would ever accept Christ. Paul speaks of a remnant, not the whole nation. I think this is not understood adequately. The old covenant is gone, only the New remains and the only way for one to be included in the New is in Christ. Each person must believe in Christ - it is not a national covenant, but an individual one.

Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Isaiah says a third would be saved. Paul says a remnant will be saved. And He says all Israel will be saved. The remnant is all that is left of the nation after God purges them of their rebels.

Mic 4:6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;
Mic 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

A remnant can be a strong nation. You act as if it must be one, or the other. God will bring His words to pass without
leaving undone anything else He says.

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:You tell me the covenant was broken. I can find verses that verify that. So, I agree. But you tell me the covenant is no more. Nowhere do I find God saying this. And the latest info I have, in the Word, is that law is old and ready to vanish. I can go beyond that with assumptions that I can pinpoint when it does vanish. But without the verses to verify it I'm just creating man's doctrine.

Heb 7:18 For there is verily an annulment of the previous commandment because of the weakness and uselessness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by which we draw near unto God.


Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and an earthly sanctuary. ….

Heb 9:8 The Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in foods and drinks, and various washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the ones approaching perfect.

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin you desired not, neither had pleasure in them; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having a high priest over the house of God;

Frank we cant be in both, there is a new and better way in the New Covenant and for you to say it has not been abolished means that ,even though you may not realize, are rejecting that same new covenant.
It is not mans doctrine but what the Bible teaches as Hebrews says


Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.

I don’t know what else how else to put it really.Some of the things you are saying are hard for me to understand and sound contradictory.

Quote:If Christ's sacrifice bestowed mercy on all of Israel then where is Israel's need to accept Him. The sacrifice is complete. The mercy has been dispensed. Is Israel saved? They don't even understand it was a sacrifice. If they had known it, they wouldn't have sacrificed Jesus [1 Cor 2:8]. Where is the mercy in ignorance of the blessing?

What comes across to me throughout all this is that you keep on excusing Israel for rejecting their Messiah.It reminds me of John Hagee and his theology.
Christs sacrifice does bestow mercy and salvation for all Israel.But to enter into the New Covenant its an individual choice. It is different to the Old and ancestry and being a descendant of Abraham Isaac and Jacob does not count. In the New Covenant people don’t enter it because they are born into it.Thats what they must be born again so to speak. Of the Spirit not of the flesh.
We know many were and continue to be saved that are natural born Israelites ie the Jwish people. Why are some blind and some not
The issue is the same as when the people rejected Moses and the Prophets in the Old Covenant. The peoples hardness of hearts gets so bad that it blinds them. It is not God doing the blinding perse.God respects our free will too much and Jesus went to that Cross precisely because we do have free will and we can choose.To enter into the New Covenant we freely use our free will to ask God to change our hearts.We die to self. Jesus pays the price of our redemption so salvation and to enter into the New Covenant is available to all.But to enter in is an individual choice.

.

[Rose of Shushan]

Mat 21:28 But what think you? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work today in my vineyard.
Mat 21:29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
Mat 21:30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
Mat 21:31 Which of the two did the will of his father? They said unto him, The first. Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the tax collectors and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and you believed him not: but the tax collectors and the harlots believed him: and you, when you had seen it, repented not afterward, that you might believe him.


Frank, did Jesus say to the Pharisees and scribes that it was ok and that their blindness was not their fault or did he condemn them and tell them that others ,who they perceived as sinners and outcasts would eeter the kingdom of God instead of them? Jesus held them accountable.He didnt excuse their blindness, he said they would be judged for it.

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, who planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into a far country:
Mat 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants, that they might receive the fruits of it.
Mat 21:35 And the tenants took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Mat 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will respect my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do unto those tenants?
Mat 21:41 They said unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other tenants, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Mat 21:42 Jesus said unto them, Did you never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same has become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore I say unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Mat 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spoke of them.
Mat 21:46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

It says the kingdom of God would be taken from them and given to someone else!The vineyard was Israel don’t you agree, if not who do you think was the vineyard. Another parable

Mat 21:18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
Mat 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on you again forever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
Mat 21:20 And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

Mar 11:12 And on the next day, when they had come from Bethany, he was hungry:
Mar 11:13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if perhaps he might find anything thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
Mar 11:14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of you hereafter forever. And his disciples heard it.

Mar 11:19 And when evening was come, he went out of the city.
Mar 11:20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
Mar 11:21 And Peter calling to remembrance said unto him, Teacher, behold, the fig tree which you cursed is withered away.
Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering said unto them, Have faith in God.
Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be removed, and be cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he said shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he said.

Isnt the fig tree representing Israel here also.It says no man would eat of her fruit forever .


Mat 22:1 And Jesus answered and spoke unto them again by parables, and said,
Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, who made a marriage for his son,
Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Mat 22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them who are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
Mat 22:5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
Mat 22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and treated them shamefully, and slew them.
Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was angry: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Mat 22:8 Then said he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they who were bidden were not worthy.
Mat 22:9 Go you therefore into the highways, and as many as you shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man who had not on a wedding garment:
Mat 22:12 And he said unto him, Friend, how came you in here not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Mat 22:15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.

Here also we see that those of Israel that you say were blinded were invited to the feast.But it was their rejection due to various reasons that excluded them.So God then put out the invitation to the Gentiles.

Finally for now, in the 23rd chapter of Matthew we see Jesus repeatedly calling the Pharisees blind and fools but he does not excuse them does he.He says they will be judged for it.It is their own sins that blind them not God, Jesus says they will be condemned until they accepted Him.

Mat 23:32 Fill you up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the judgment of hell?
Mat 23:34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall you scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom you slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent unto you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, you shall not see me again, till you shall say, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

[Vic]

Hi Frank,

You said,

Quote:If Christ's sacrifice bestowed mercy on all of Israel then where is Israel's need to accept Him. The sacrifice is complete. The mercy has been dispensed. Is Israel saved? They don't even understand it was a sacrifice. If they had known it, they wouldn't have sacrificed Jesus [1 Cor 2:8]. Where is the mercy in ignorance of the blessing?

You are making a distinction that need not be made. How many Gentiles have rejected Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord over the ages...a few...thousands...millions?

How many Jews...?

How many came to Christ--when He walked the earth...The Jews...including the apostles and the thousands of Jews that believed HIm while the apostles were alive, because of their call to proclaim Him. Jews and Gentiles. Notice that---there were many thousands of Jews who came to Christ...then and through the years. The nation of Israel---as with all nations are not believing, acceptiing or living for Jesus Christ. There is not one nation that does live for Him. Despite attempted claims and false claims to the contrary.

There are individuals from every nation who have come to Christ--worldwide. From Israel, too. Because it is no longer about Israel as a nation, but about Christ and each individual person's belief in, and relationship with, Jesus Christ. The Body of Christ is made up of Jews and Gentiles. Not Jews, Gentiles and something from the future....

It was always to the Jew first---they were a chosen people first, Christ went to them first, to fulfill prophecy, but He also spoke to Gentiles. And then the apostles went to the Jews first...and then Paul ...went to the Jews first, and then to the Gentiles. Every opportunity has been given to all mankind, including the Jews, to come to Christ. Every person that rejects Him does so by choice--regardless of race or history. Because the cross made a level playing field in that we all have sinned and all fall short of the glory of God. Jews and Gentiles.

The New Covenant is based on that truth. This thread is soo off topic, I am not sure exactly where to split it and move this conversation, which is really about understanding the New Covenant and what it means to all mankind. Jew and Gentile. Not Jew, Gentile and Jews of the nation of Israel not converted to Christ-yet....or on equal footing...not Gentiles that have not converted to Christ yet.

Frank

Quote: If Christ's sacrifice bestowed mercy on all of Israel then where is Israel's need to accept Him. The sacrifice is complete. The mercy has been dispensed. Is Israel saved? They don't even understand it was a sacrifice. If they had known it, they wouldn't have sacrificed Jesus [1 Cor 2:8]. Where is the mercy in ignorance of the blessing?

The Jews who really believed the Scriptures, the law and the prophets, walked by faith and believed the prophecies and hence, believed Christ. No different than those Gentiles who came to Christ---by faith. And full belief in the truth of the Gospel and the precious promises given in the New Covenant, and those proclaiming His coming. If they had faith, as some had, they would have known Christ was fulfilling the prophecies.

Zechariah 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

Isaiah 53:1-11 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2. For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.[/color]

[color=#1E90FF] Those and many other prophecies were declared and those who believed and had faith, believed Christ.

In the NT it was written about the necessity of the changing of the priesthood and the changing of the law----changing....and focusing on the spiritual, because of Christ.

Hebrews 7:12-19 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13. For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14. For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16. Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. 17. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 18. [b]For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Quote: The time for blind Israel to be convicted of sin will come. But it will follow the time God gave them the spirit of slumber.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

But Israel's blindness, like every other purpose of God, has been given a time and season [Eccl 3:1].

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Israel's awakening will occur after the fulness of the gentiles is achieved. No one God has blinded until the fulness of the gentiles comes in can undo what God has done by making a choice they do not know they have.

I bolded a couple of things....blindiness in part has happened--meaning many rejected Christ and many accepted Him.

"The time for blind Israel to be convicted of sin will come".

Every single Jew who has come to Christ has been convicted of sin...from the apostles--who were Jewish-- forward. That's why the gospel was preached to their fellow Jews and also Gentiles. Because the partition was removed and all had equal access to Christ and the truth of the Gospel. It was because of the faith like Abraham that many declared they had seen the fulfillment of prophecy in Christ...

Luke 1:68-79 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69. And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70. As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71. That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72. To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73. The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, 74. That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, 75. In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. 76. And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; 77. To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, 78. Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, 79. To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Ephesians 2:15-20 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

It is about Christ Frank, and the truth of the cross and all He did for us--Jew and Gentile. It's not about heritage. It's about the difference between the flesh and the New Jerusalem...spiritual versus the physical. It's about knowing that Christ is sufficient for all mankind, and conviction of the Holy Spirit is for all mankind. If it wasn't then there would not be one Jew who accepted Christ...right from 33 AD forward. Not one would have known Him, or could.

Paul, a Jew, wrote:

Romans 11:5-7 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded..

In other words...those who had ears to hear and hearts that desire truth...then, throughout the years...and today...will belong to Christ. Those who don't...both Jew and Gentile....won't.

[sheep wrecked]

I was reminded of another scripture which is quite interesting:

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


According to this passage, Jesus was born King of the Jews. There is no need for a "national salvation", the Jews have had their King for 2000 years - for those who accept Him. The cool thing is that Jesus is not only their King, but also for everyone else who believes in Him