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Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food?
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05-12-2011, 12:20 PM
Post: #151
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RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food?
(05-11-2011 05:50 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:Well let’s recap the recap. You can not tell someone they can eat anything according to all you stand-by (mark 7), and then say except for animals strangled or still have blood.Quote:At this point I'm loosing hope that you're even keeping up with yourself. Your story is slowly changing day-by-day. So now Jesus did not teach by the Law of Moses, nor did he give a new law in Mark 7? So what are you saying took place in Mark 7, a simple gesture of speech? In order for this to be true you would have to show whoever buys this the same prescription written to them in Mark 7. If you can’t, then you’ve just permitted two distinct laws for the same time frame on the same topic for all the people. Thus the extended conversation we have had for the last week. What I see is you telling me that once we get to America I have this expected promise that I can go as fast as I want in my car. While at the same time I’m told to go as fast as I want, but I can only go 35 miles per hour. Either I can go as fast as I want or I can go 35 miles per hour. There are no two speed limits for the same exact road, for the same exact time, at the same exact place, for the same exact people. By all means this is chaos. |
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05-12-2011, 04:34 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-12-2011 04:35 PM by Vic.)
Post: #152
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RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food?
And by all means Nearyah, you appear to be deliberately obtuse on this issue. You are not listening to what is being said to you, and appear to be infested with gnats and straining away at them and going nowhere. I am very close to closing this topic to you.
The only chaos and confusion is coming from you, Nearyah. That's about enough. Everyone gets it. Except you. It's not some huge diabolical mystery, because Scripture clearly interprets Scripture. Peter was what? Answer--living after the manner of the Gentiles and also eating with them. Peter was not what? Living after the manner of the Jews--meaning he was no longer living according to the Mosaic Law. Peter's vision dictated what? That the Gentiles were made clean by Christ, by faith, just as the Jews were to be made clean by faith and both received the Holy Spirit---it wasn't just for one or the other. And both have the same doctrine, the same Gospel, the same way to serve Christ. And neither are under the Sinai Covenant, or the Law of Moses which was for Israel. Rather both are under the New Covenant, because of Christ. Meaning no more clean and unclean separation by race or food or other restrictions because God made all clean in Christ. Why? Because the law had been nailed to the cross with Christ. The wall of separation was removed so God could make one new man of the two who had before been separated by all the laws and commandments and ordinances of the Sinai covenant. How do we know that? Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Eph 2:15 Having*** abolished*** in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; abolished> G2673 καταργέω katargeō Thayer Definition: 1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative 1a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency 1b) to deprive of force, influence, power 2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish 2a) to cease, to pass away, be done away 2b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one 2c) to terminate all intercourse with one Part of Speech: verb A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2596 and G691 the lawG3551 of commandmentsG1785 contained inG1722 ordinances;G1378 G3551 νόμος nomos Thayer Definition: 1) anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command 1a) of any law whatsoever 1a1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God 1a1a) by the observance of which is approved of God 1a2) a precept or injunction 1a3) the rule of action prescribed by reason 1b) of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents 1c) the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, especially the precept concerning love 1d) the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT Part of Speech: noun masculine A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a primary nemo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals) of commandments > G1785 ἐντολή entolē Thayer Definition: 1) an order, command, charge, precept, injunction 1a) that which is prescribed to one by reason of his office 2) a commandment 2a) a prescribed rule in accordance with which a thing is done 2a1) a precept relating to lineage, of the Mosaic precept concerning the priesthood 2a2) ethically used of the commandments in the Mosaic law or Jewish tradition Part of Speech: noun feminine A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1781 in ordinances> G1378 δόγμα dogma Thayer Definition: 1) doctrine, decree, ordinance 1a) of public decrees 1b) of the Roman Senate 1c) of rulers 2) the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment 3) of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living Part of Speech: noun neuter A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the base of G1380 Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Col 2:16 ****Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. blotting out G1813 ἐξαλείφω exaleiphō Thayer Definition: 1) to anoint or wash in every part 1a) to besmear: i.e. cover with lime (to whitewash or plaster) 2) to wipe off, wipe away 2a) to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out Part of Speech: verb the handwriting G5498 χειρόγραφον cheirographon Thayer Definition: 1) a handwriting, what one has written by his own hand 2) a note of hand or writing in which one acknowledges that money has either been deposited with him or lent to him by another, to be returned at the appointed time Part of Speech: noun neuter A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a compound of G5495 and G1125 G1378 δόγμα dogma Thayer Definition: 1) doctrine, decree, ordinance 1a) of public decrees 1b) of the Roman Senate 1c) of rulers 2) the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment 3) of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living Part of Speech: noun neuter >>>>> It says clearly God broke down the wall that separated Jews and Gentiles due to the enmity/hostility of the "law of commandments contained in ordinances". He removed it all out of the way. Why? To make Himself one new man --all in Christ in one Spirit of unity. And an example of a prior use of the word ordinances, to prove it was speaking of the Law of Moses: Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. commandmentsG1785 and ordinancesG1345 commandments G1785 ἐντολή entolē Thayer Definition: 1) an order, command, charge, precept, injunction 1a) that which is prescribed to one by reason of his office 2) a commandment 2a) a prescribed rule in accordance with which a thing is done 2a1) a precept relating to lineage, of the Mosaic precept concerning the priesthood 2a2) ethically used of the commandments in the Mosaic law or Jewish tradition Part of Speech: noun feminine A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1781 ordinances G1345 δικαίωμα dikaiōma Thayer Definition: 1) that which has been deemed right so as to have force of law 1a) what has been established, and ordained by law, an ordinance 1b) a judicial decision, sentence 1b1) of God 1b1a) either the favourable judgment by which he acquits man and declares them acceptable to Him 1b1b) unfavourable: sentence of condemnation 2) a righteous act or deed Part of Speech: noun neuter A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1344 And since then> Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, *******imposed on them ****until ***the time of reformation.************ Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Heb 9:15 And ******for this cause ****he is the mediator of the new testament, ****that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. THe NT being written for our understanding on these things. And it becomes clear to those who love Him. And the Scriptures also tell us and warn us: 2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. 2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 2Ti 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. Vic SeekGod.ca 3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. |
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05-12-2011, 08:36 PM
Post: #153
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RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food?
Quote:Above and previously you’ve stated that this law “nothing that goes into the body defiles it.” Was a law that was to be activated upon Yahusha (Jesus) death and resurrection. This leads me to believe that immediately after his final departure mentioned in Acts 2, followed by the ushering in of the Ruach (spirit) we are to follow this law; Yisra’el (Israel) and Gentile. However, after Yahusha (Jesus) leaves we don’t see “his law” being followed which you say is nothing that goes into the body defiles it, which would then permit us to eat anything. What we see is something that stands in contradiction of that law given in Mark 7 despite any reason of rational you would like to give it (because life is in the blood). You keep going on about laws and attributing things to me like when you say that I said a law was issued in Mark 7. In Mark 7 Jesus was teaching about a reality that transcended the Laws of Moses, which was that nothing that goes into someones mouth makes them unclean. Make of it what you will, Nearyah. That it conflicts with the Law of Moses, yes. Was it a law that was issued there and then? No, it was a statement, a fact, it wasn’t a law that was just decreed. You're obsessed with laws poking out of every corner. Like when you said Quote:Above and previously you’ve stated that this law “nothing that goes into the body defiles it.” Was a law that was to be activated upon Yahusha (Jesus) death and resurrection. You seem to twist my words.What I had said was that Jesus hadn't been teaching the people to disobey Moses and eat whatever they wanted then since they were Israelites and still bound to the Mosaic Covenant .Jesus hadn’t died yet. He was however teaching on the principles for the Kingdom of God and how to live in that New Covenant.No longer an eye for an eye, no more divorce etc…that wasnt Sinai Law either. Since the Sinai Covenant contained types and shadows of the heavenly reality, what Jesus was teaching on was these heavenly realities. So what He said in Mark 7 makes sense to us in that light and didn't come into effect at the Cross since it has always been. What ceased at the cross was the law of commandments contained in ordinances that differentiated Israel from the Gentiles. Quote:Rose, this isn’t even a full thought you are offering me here. Furthermore, I doubt you can find some concrete evidence to support this throughout scripture. The law you and I are locked in with is the law that has been written on our heart. This law is no different than what we’ve already gone over. Ezekiel tells us that we are going to be caused to walk in his ways. His ways have only been identified in one place, and you and I both know where that is. Despite how good of pitch you make we end up going back to that same law, only now we have grace with the blood to cover us.So you mean that we are bound to Mosaic Law and that we are allowed to break two thirds of these because Jesus blood covers us? How does that work? Is He some sort of scapegoat? What you are describing is not Mosaic Law Nearyah. You seem to say that it is ok for us to not keep some of those Laws for some reason to do with grace and blood? Whatever happened to not to add or take away from that same law, I wonder. Also the laws that are written in my heart aren’t food laws, or laws that tell me to stone a Sabbath breaker or homosexual. The laws written in my heart are the words of my Saviour and King Jesus Christ. |
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05-13-2011, 12:18 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-13-2011 12:34 PM by sari83.)
Post: #154
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RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food?
After spending some time studying, I realized if one reads the entire context of Acts chapter 10, the vision is fully explained and understood.
Chap. 10 begins with Cornelius, a God-fearing man, who while in prayer has a vision, and is told to send for a man named Peter. (Why? To teach him of the good news) Acts 10:1-7 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do. And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually; KJV The men are on their way to find Peter. Meanwhile he is praying on the rooftop. While praying, Peter became very hungry. He fell into a trance, heaven opened and a vessel containing four footed beasts descended. A voice tells him to kill and eat. Peter says he's never eaten anything common or unclean, but God tells him not to call things that have been cleansed common. Acts 10:9-16 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. KJV While Peter is still pondering the vision, he doesn't fully understand what it means. The spirit tells him of the three men who seek him, and that Peter must go with them without question. Peter speaks to the men who Cornelius sent, and he is informed of the words am angel spoke to Cornelius. Acts 10:17-22 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate, And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there. While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them. Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come? And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. KJV Peter arrives at Cornelius' house. He tells him that although it is unlawful for a Jew to keep company with one from another nation, God has shown him not to call any man common or unclean. Acts 10:25-28 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together. And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. KJV Peter asks Cornelius why he has sent for him. Cornelius explains the vision he had fours days ago while he was fasting and praying. He next states they are all they before God, to hear what God has commanded Peter. Acts 10:29-33 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me? And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God. Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee. Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God. KJV Peter explains that God accepts those from every nation who fear him and work righteousness. He proceeds to tell Cornelius the good news and how God chose witnesses from those who ate and drank with Jesus after his resurrection to proclaim Him. Acts 10:34-43 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all) That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. KJV While Peter spoke to them, the holy spirit fell on the men who heard. Those of the circumcision were amazed that the gentiles also received the gift of the holy spirit. A baptism takes place. Peter's vision is fulfilled. Acts 10:44-48 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. KJV |
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05-13-2011, 02:35 PM
Post: #155
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RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food?
Okay, so taking time to write something this long must mean you want me to respond. I’ve tried to be discipline in this topic and focus on the actual topic itself through one of you (Rose) and their interpretation, which doesn’t even allow scripture to interpret scripture because tell this day no one is admitting to what Peter said his vision meant in the scripture. We see this clearly by Rose adding to what Peter tells us his vision meant in full. However, putting that aside, I will now follow what you’re saying to show how none of this makes sense. Keep in mind I’m using the same bible as you so please don’t think I’m pulling these concepts out of thin air. Before I start I do want to say that using Strong’s concordance is a good beginners tool in understanding the bible, but it has flaws because we should at this point all agree that the word selection chosen throughout the king James wasn’t the best, which means the defining of those words are going to automatically be off. In some cases it matters and in others it doesn’t.
(05-12-2011 04:34 PM)Vic Wrote: And by all means Nearyah, you appear to be deliberately obtuse on this issue. You are not listening to what is being said to you, and appear to be infested with gnats and straining away at them and going nowhere. I am very close to closing this topic to you. So you’re introducing Galatians into the discussion. 11But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? (Galatians 2:11-14) This is the text you presented the other day along with some definitions from Strong’s which said to live after the manner of gentiles meant to do the following. Personally, I’m looking at the third definition #3 because it describes the meaning of the other two by using the term “in the NT”. Quote:adapted to the genius or customs of a people, peculiar to a people, nationalAre you asking me to believe that this is the nature of Peter living among the gentiles? Galatians tells me better than this when I add more to the chapter you started me with through verses 11-14. I’m now giving you verse 15 and 16 to add to it. We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:15-16) What Shaul is saying here is that they the set- apart did not live, nor walk in their (gentile) customs, he even goes as far to call their custom sin, which is obvious from the definition you’ve applied. He continues on to tell the people that they are all submitted to Yahusha (Jesus). I can give you a whole days worth of the term “works by the law” and what studies have shown this to mean according to the Dead Sea Scrolls. But let’s just stick with the bible and go back one chapter, right before Shaul sets up why he dug into Peter. And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers (Galatians 1:14) I ask you, does this sound like Torah he is rebuking when he addresses Peter, or does it sound like Judaism (oral tradition)? (Please see Mark 7:7-14) I’m sure at this point you’re thinking I’m twisting scripture, so let’s see what tradition we see taking place here and in Acts 10. Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation (Acts 10:28) Could this be why Galatians reads he separated himself? Not one time do we see the issue of what he ate being mentioned? The law that was being broken was not what he ate, but the fact that he ate with them, not as them, and yes this would be the portion that applies to Ephesians. Even as I write this I can here some of you saying, “he’s twisting scripture”. So I’ll add more scripture to support scripture to make sure none think I’m crazy about what the gentile was taught by the disciples. I guess for most of you here it would be best to use Shaul since he seems to be the one correcting Peter from following the law (assumed torah). 19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry 20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. So there are only two alternatives we can take from this story. One James is openly admitting that Paul was not guilty of the things they thought he was doing, which would be teaching others to not get circumcised and walk after the customs of the Torah. Or we can now say that James and Paul are lying to keep the gospel moving forward which then places them in a horrible position biblically and totally out of the will I’ve Yahauh (God). For the bible tells us - Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44) Would you like to be the first to say that these two are the followers of the Devil? Or can we simply agree that the Torah was being taught to the new believer as I’ve been saying the whole time I’ve been with you? Please understand, I’m not saying that the Torah is the end all be all because we are called to keep both the scriptures and some would say the commandments of Elohim, and our faith in Yahusha (Jesus). You have to understand how the Greek mind (Abrstract) works and how we have come to our popular belief today. Which is incomplete in terms of how the Hebrew mind (both external and physical) worked and how we are supposed to be in the body. Previously I’ve given the example of how we look at baptism. If you know what I know you could also use this example for fringes as well. Quote:Peter's vision dictated what? Needless to say, you already know I do not buy in to the idea that food itself is what’s being discussed. It was the activity of the person. The very thing that divided them was what the definition you provided said about the manner of Gentiles. They were sinners; they lived walked and even ate contrary to the laws of Elohim. So when they came to Mashiyach (the messiah) they were called to his yoke, to be his bond servant, and follow this if you will. They were called to give-up there lives and, follow after him and he taught nothing to them accept the law of Moses, which came from the Father. I’ve shared this idea with Rose. Peter did not say what you both are putting in his mouth saying, nor did Yahuah (God) reveal his vision to mean what you both teach. He told us that what we are no longer to call unclean or common was man, not mans sin. And hear is the passage to prove it. - But God has shown me that I must not call any person common or unclean. (Acts 10:28). How you pull the word “person” and get “food” is beyond me, but by all means I digress. Quote:Why? Because the law had been nailed to the cross with Christ. The wall of separation was removed so God could make one new man of the two who had before been separated by all the laws and commandments and ordinances of the Sinai covenant. So what law was against you Vic? Let’s see was it the law for you to love your Elohim? Or how about the law to love your mother or father? Maybe it was the law that tells judges not to take bribes from people… For the first time ever you can record me as being sarcastic, and for good cause. I’m stating the following to show you that the law was not against you, because we are told that the law brings the exact opposite. Keep His statutes and commands, which I am giving you today, so that you and your children after you may prosper and so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you for all time." (Deut 4:40) Hopefully you can agree that none of the laws mentioned above work against you then as much as they do now. However, when we look to see what does work against us this all makes sense. What worked against us was the penalty for not keeping the law. Deut 27 speaks to that and we see this little phrase mentioned in Deut 31- Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, so that it may remain there as a witness against you. Does going the speed limit work against you, or the person that violates the speed limit? The law only turned against anyone when they did not walk by it. So if you’re customs were not what Yahuah (God) ask them to be you would fall prey to the laws punishment, it worked against you. This is why those that walked away from Yahuah and his commandments were brought back to form one new man. They were brought back (notice I’m saying brought in the sense that payment was made for their debt of sin) to Yahuah through his sacrifice that they may live according to his principles through the Ruach (spirit). His principles have not changed, but the people are the focal point, it’s them that are forming the new, not his law, not his ways. We the people are to come out of our sinful ways in every which way to become set-apart to him according to his word. This is why he tells us plainly that – “ this crowd, which doesn't know the law, is accursed!" (John 7:49) Quote:Why? To make Himself one new man --all in Christ in one Spirit of unity. I would ask that you keep this passage in mind the next time some one tries to tell you that no one could keep the law. Quote:Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary Let’s pause here because now you’ve elevated our eating conversation and compared it to foods offered by priest for sin sacrifices and the ordinances pertained in that particular ceremony. This has absolutely nothing to do with Peter and what he ate. If you’re trying to focus on the covenant over all, I only ask that you read my comments about this in The “Jesus new covenant thread,” but for starters, I will leave you with the end of chapter 8. By saying, a new [ covenant ], He has declared that the first is old. And what is old and aging is about to disappear (Hebrews 8:13) I dare say you nor I have had the privilege to walk in the holy of holies literally. This goes back to what I said earlier about the Hebrew mind set being both internal and external; both are called upon because they both serve to give the person the concept. - Therefore," He said to them, "every student of Scripture instructed in the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who brings out of his storeroom what is new and what is old." (Matthew 13:52) Are you following? We take both… Quote:And the Scriptures also tell us and warn us:2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;[/b] Are you following the text you provided? It’s telling you that these people confused Paul’s words and then confused the scriptures (Genesis through Malachi) by his words. This means that the two have to line-up, so if you say Paul says don’t do something mentioned in the scriptures, and Peter is telling you that those who are not well instructed by the scriptures will miss the message Paul is giving… Do you think you fall on Peter’s side with this? Am I not the one correcting what you say according to the Law? We can start with the food laws, is that not in the law, and aren’t you telling me to leave it back there because Paul says otherwise? Quote: All of this serves as a perfect example to the point Peter makes in his plea to understand the scriptures well first so that you can understand the New Testament. I bolded some points throughout the passages you provided to show you that the Torah & Prophets is present in each of them. - Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your instruction is true (Psalms 119:142) - For a commandment is a lamp, teaching is a light, and corrective instructions are the way to life. (Proverbs 6:23) - If Your instruction had not been my delight, I would have died in my affliction (Pslams 119:92) There was a saying that came out in the mid 90’s called “what would Jesus do (WWJD)?” Well this prescription above tells you what we are to follow to get to that point in the Ruach (spirit). No matter how you try to explain it we end-up with the same Elohim requesting the same thing from those he has called to be part of his nation. But beyond these, my son, be warned: there is no end to the making of many books, and much study wearies the body. 13 When all has been heard, the conclusion of the matter is: fear God and keep His commands, because this [is for] all humanity. 14 For God will bring every act to judgment, including every hidden thing, whether good or evil. (Eccl 12:12-14) Yahusha taught the Father’s doctrine (John 12:49) Shaul taught his doctrine (1 Cor 7:19) and Peter points us in the direction of those scriptures that show us his doctrine (2 Peter 3:16-17), which would be Genesis to Malachi. Sadly, many bypass what Moses says to the people when he gives the commands. So when you start telling me that Moses law is out, and this Jesus law is in, which is the same law, you loose me. I leave it to you. Either your heart is circumcised or not? And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live (Deut 30:6). So if you say your heart is circumcised you just signed up for the family of Elohim, after all this same passage says - I make this covenant and this oath, not with you alone, but with him who stands here with us today before the LORD our God, as well as with him who is not here with us today (Deut 29:15) |
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05-14-2011, 07:27 PM
Post: #156
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RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food?
Quote:Original quote: Ne’arYah: Okay, so taking time to write something this long must mean you want me to respond. Nearyah, I have posted several posts directly to you and you totally ignored and dismissed them as non existant. I think it's rather incredible that you finally figured out that maybe you should respond. Despite not actually answering the specific questions...clearly...which could have been so simple to do. Quote:Original quote: Ne’arYah:I’ve tried to be discipline in this topic and focus on the actual topic itself through one of you (Rose) and their interpretation, which doesn’t even allow scripture to interpret scripture because tell this day no one is admitting to what Peter said his vision meant in the scripture. The vision has been interpreted, clearly, concisely, repeatedly, again and again and again and again according to the Scriptures, in every way possible for you to grasp what it means. But you refuse it. And set up strawmen arguments, claiming all manner of nonsense. It has been broken down and simplified into questions and answers---and you still refuse to acknowledge the truth and there's been over 150 posts on this topic. That's the problem as I and others see it. Scripture does interpret Scriptures, but you actually have to believe the Scriptures to be true to start with, and you have to understand how to allow Scripture to interpet Scripture. Which you reject. Quote: Original quote: Ne’arYah: Before I start I do want to say that using Strong’s concordance is a good beginners tool in understanding the bible, but it has flaws because we should at this point all agree that the word selection chosen throughout the king James wasn’t the best, which means the defining of those words are going to automatically be off. In some cases it matters and in others it doesn’t I didn't use Strong's for that, Nearyah. It's right there in the definitions given that it was Thayer's Definitions I used. They are merely keyed to Strong's numbers. >Joseph Henry Thayer (1828-1901) Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament. > Thayer's Greek Definitions Are you now fluent in Koine Greek to have determined the committee of translators for the KJV were incompetent in Biblical languages and didn't know what they should have translated things as? They messed up and you are here to set the record straight so to speak? If you like we can look at some other sources, which you will likely discount as being accurate as well. The New Testament Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others; this is keyed to the large Kittel and the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament." Also included are pronunciations of each word with alternate pronunciations if available. Shortening the information a bit-because it's repetitive. Not exactly the same order I presented previously but I doubt it will matter. And the definitions for the Greek words--amazing, I know-- are the same. I decided to mostly just give the links because all the possible definitions are in fact identical to Thayer's--which is what I sourced originally. blotting out >Strong's Number: 1813 >>>http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/exaleipho.html Original Word ejxaleivfw ...to wipe off, wipe away to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out the handwriting G5498 http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/...aphon.html ceirovgrafon from a compound of (5495) and (1125) Transliterated Word Cheirographon abolished >> http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/...argeo.html Strong's Number: 2673 Original Word katargevw from kat-arg-eh'-o Verb Definition to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency to deprive of force, influence, power to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish to cease, to pass away, be done away to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one to terminate all intercourse with one the law Strong's Number: 3551 http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/...nomos.html Original Word novmoß Nomos Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech nom'-os Noun Masculine of commandments Strong's Number: 1785 http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/...ntole.html Original Word Word Origin ejntolhv from (1781) Entole in ordinances> G1378 http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/...dogma.html Strong's Number: 1378 Original Word dovgma Transliterated Word Dogma ...the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living ordinances Strong's Number: 1345 http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/...aioma.html Original Word Word Origin dikaivwma from (1344) Transliterated Word Dikaioma Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech dik-ah'-yo-mah Noun Neuter Definition that which has been deemed right so as to have force of law what has been established, and ordained by law, an ordinance .... Just so we can see the comparison--here is Strong's Concordance on a few of the words. Incidently, Strong didn't translate the KJV Bible, but merely indexed all the words in 1890, with about 100 colleagues working with him.> blotting out> G1813 ἐξαλείφω exaleiphō ex-al-i'-fo From G1537 and G218; to smear out, that is, obliterate (erase tears, figuratively pardon sin): - blot out, wipe away. of ordinances > G1378 δόγμα dogma dog'-mah From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance. abolished >G2673 καταργέω katargeō kat-arg-eh'-o From G2596 and G691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively: - abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void. Notice the word for abolished is also used in 2 Corinthians 3:13 Now that's all from many sources combined about what the Greek words can mean, so I am thinking that alllll those people couldn't allll be wrong and just YOU be right? Although you haven't actually contributed any new defintions. Just dismissed what is being said. With claims it's all wrong. There is a difference in getting an answer for something and receiving or rejecting it. In case you haven't noticed, words in english can all have many meanings,[just like Greek and Hebrew and other languages]--depending on use or context. For example the word obtuse, and as we can see, use determines the meaning: Quote:ob·tuse (b-ts, -tys, b-) adj. ob·tus·er, ob·tus·est continued.... Vic SeekGod.ca 3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. |
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05-14-2011, 07:41 PM
Post: #157
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RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food?
Quote:Original quote: Ne’arYah: So you’re introducing Galatians into the discussion. Several times already, yes. Because Scripture interprets Scripture and that passage is relevant to the Vision and what it meant to Peter. Nearyah is referring to my post #136 for those reading along. Quote:Original quote: Ne’arYah: This is the text you presented the other day along with some definitions from Strong’s which said to live after the manner of gentiles meant to do the following. Personally, I’m looking at the third definition #3 because it describes the meaning of the other two by using the term “in the NT”. ... Of course you again have it incorrect for the definition source. It wasn't Strong's. It was Thayers. But I digress. So now you want to take the definitions supplied--omit the first 2 which are in context to the meaning-- and wrap them around YOUR interpretation instead of studying and applying the correct definition. You want to dismiss the obvious definition and insert the obviously incorrect application. LOL. Nearyah, look closely at what you have done: From my post: Quote:Paul, a Jew, rebuked Peter, a Jew, for being a hypocrite for living like the Gentiles and "not as do the Jews". Before Christ died, all The Jews lived according to the law of Moses which included CLEAN and UNCLEAN FOOD and separation from non Jews. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nearyah, See where I put the >>> after the definition of 1483 and it was pointing to the related word of 1482--------that isn't the definition of "after the manner of the Gentiles."--1483 was that definition. I was merely providing the related word defintion to show the first 2 definitions there in comparison to "after the manner of the Gentiles" was. Because those Gentiles who were seeking the Truth and wanting to hear how to be saved and subsequently became BELIEVERS, were no longer going to be 'savouring the nature of the pagans". They were being taught to follow Christ. Gentiles with and alternately without Christ, live different lives and have different purposes. To even suggest that the Scriptures were stating Peter was living a pagan existance and had become a pagan/heathen is absurd at best. That is similar to suggesting that because Jesus sat with sinners He sinned. And Peter was not the only one to go to the Gentiles. However, Peter was apostle to particular Gentiles, and as were Paul and those who worked with him. Because of the Vision of the Sheet. Let's finish my post quote from that prior post, which you have never been able to answer the questions to, without all this sidetracking and strawmen. Quote:not >as do the Jews,G2452>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eat G4906 συνεσθίω sunesthiō Thayer Definition: 1) to eat with, take food together with Part of Speech: verb A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4862 and G2068 (including its alternate) *******from the definition above for eat*********"from G4862 and G2068 (including its alternate)" G4862 σύν sun Thayer Definition: 1) with Part of Speech: preposition A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a primary preposition denoting union G2068 ἐσθίω esthiō Thayer Definition: 1) to eat 2) to eat (consume) a thing 2a) to take food, eat a meal 3) metaphorically to devour, consume Part of Speech: verb Peter was eating with and living with the Gentiles in the manner of the Gentiles. Yet he was a Jew. So either he disobeyed the Mosaic Law and was in sin, or it was as Paul wrote when Peter separated from the Gentiles he had been eating and living with, he and the others "walked not uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel." It can't be both. Peter was living in the same manner as the Gentiles, in food and nothing being unclean to them. He was with people who, if he was abiding the law of Moses, would have been unclean for him to be with. Let alone eat with or partake of their food. And believe it or not. Peter did not have a thermos of kosher coffee, and a lunchpail of 'clean' food, as he sat and ate with these Gentiles. Peter didn't say to them, Oh by the way, I brought my own breakfast, lunch and supper, and snacks, because your food is filth to me. But rest assured, God told me that you aren't filthy to me any longer. So I can be in your house and sit near you, but your food is really filthy to me so I won't be eating it. IN fact, I pretty much need to eat by myself because your food is an abomination to me and I can't allow myself to be defiled by even being near it. But not to worry. I can preach about our Savior Jesus Christ to you from the other room maybe or maybe through a window in your house. Galatians was clearly related to the vision of the sheet and what it meant. That's why it was brought into the conversation. It had precisely the application of what was meant by the vision. And how some had not been taught nor understood not just that issue, but the prophecies about the Gentiles also being given salvation if they believed Christ, and that the promise of salvation was not based on the laws given to the fathers, but via the new covenant. We know it was after the vision of the Sheet. Because otherwise Peter would not have broken the Law of Moses in order to be sitting with, living with and after the manner of the Gentiles, and eating after the manner of the Gentiles. We know that it took place before Acts 15 because of what was said: Notice first how the topic of Peter living like the Gentiles is brought in by Paul, who was also breaking the Mosaic Law by going to the Gentiles and being with them: Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. Gal 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: Gal 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do. Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: ... What does James say in Acts 15, after the reason for the get together is established> Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, ... Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, [/b]that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law:***** to whom we gave no such commandment: ********** James clearly stated that the men sent from Judaea were not told to command that the Gentiles needed to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. Instead he said they had troubled them and subverted their souls with those teachings. And as Paul wrote to the Galatians> Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. And also notice what Paul says about keeping company with those of the world versus those who are brethren who by choice sin even though they know the truth: 1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. One cannot share Christ with others unless one can be with those who need Him. That's a lesson all need to learn, just as Peter and the other Jews needed to learn that all, regardless of race, sin, and can be made clean in Christ. Quote:Original quote: Ne’arYah: We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:15-16) What Shaul is saying here is that they the set- apart did not live, nor walk in their (gentile) customs, he even goes as far to call their custom sin, which is obvious from the definition you’ve applied. He continues on to tell the people that they are all submitted to Yahusha (Jesus). I can give you a whole days worth of the term “works by the law” and what studies have shown this to mean according to the Dead Sea Scrolls. But let’s just stick with the bible and go back one chapter, right before Shaul sets up why he dug into Peter. And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers (Galatians 1:14)... Nearyah, Jews by nature is meaning the whole people who were given the Sinai covenant to live by and were doing it because it was fully a part of their lives. The Gentiles ---without Christ-- were sinners TOO. Just like the Jews. The point Paul was making was that no one is saved by the law. According to the Dead Seas Scrolls? would that be the gnostic ones or the ones that uphold the Scriptures? Oh Yes! Paul did profit in the Jews religion.....I already answered your comment on that before and posted it to YOU, but will repost it again for you, just as all that you bring forward is the same stuff in over 70 posts. The same things again and again. Post #80 Quote:Original quote: Ne’arYah:>And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, ( Gal 1:14-15). This should tell you something Quote: Yes, Ne'aryah, it tells us that before Christ died and rose again, Paul was zealous in the Jews religion--a pharisee of the pharisees, of the tribe of Benjamin, and so zealous in the Jews religion and in agreement with what the other Pharisees were teaching, he had rejected Christ and persecuted the church after Christ was crucified--both Jews and Gentiles...Acts 7,8; Jesus told the pharisees that they had invalidated the word of God with their traditions. And what did Paul say after he had persecuted the church, and was there even when Stephen was stoned to death and Christ finally delivered Paul; Paul said, and I quote:end post 80 continued... Vic SeekGod.ca 3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. |
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05-14-2011, 07:47 PM
Post: #158
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RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food?
Quote:Original quote: Ne’arYah: Not one time do we see the issue of what he ate being mentioned? The law that was being broken was not what he ate, but the fact that he ate with them, not as them, and yes this would be the portion that applies to Ephesians. Even as I write this I can here some of you saying, “he’s twisting scripture”. So I’ll add more scripture to support scripture to make sure none think I’m crazy about what the gentile was taught by the disciples. I guess for most of you here it would be best to use Shaul since he seems to be the one correcting Peter from following the law (assumed torah). Nearyah--it says he was eating with them. Living with them. It does not say what he ate, because he was eating the same as them. If he was eating 'clean' according to the Mosaic Law, it would have been confirmed as that. Instead it said what? That "he did eat with the Gentiles:"; "If thou, being a Jew,************* livest after the manner of Gentiles, and <<<<<not>>>> as do the Jews,************** why compellest thou the Gentiles************* to live as do the Jews?********** What would eating the same as the Jews mean: Lev 5:2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty. Lev 11:20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you. Lev 11:21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth; Lev 11:22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind. Lev 11:23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you. Lev 11:24 And for these ye shall be unclean: whosoever toucheth the carcase of them shall be unclean until the even. Lev 11:25 And whosoever beareth ought of the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even. Lev 11:29 These also shall be unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind, Lev 11:30 And the ferret, and the chameleon, and the lizard, and the snail, and the mole. Lev 11:41 And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten. Lev 11:42 Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination. Lev 11:43 Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby. What did living and eating the same as the Gentiles mean: Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. So the vision of the sheet: Given when Peter was very hungry and thinking of eating: Act 10:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, Act 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. Act 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, all manner > G3956 πᾶς pas Thayer Definition: 1) individually 1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything 2) collectively 2a) some of all types Part of Speech: adjective fourfooted beasts of the earth > G5074 τετράπους tetrapous Thayer Definition: 1) a fourfooted animal Part of Speech: adjective Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, Lev 11:4 Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. Lev 11:5 And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. Lev 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. Lev 11:7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. Lev 11:8 Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you. Lev 11:20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you. Lev 11:21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth; Lev 11:22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind. Lev 11:23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you. Lev 11:24 And for these ye shall be unclean: whosoever toucheth the carcase of them shall be unclean until the even. Lev 11:25 And whosoever beareth ought of the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even. Lev 11:26 The carcases of every beast which divideth the hoof, and is not clovenfooted, nor cheweth the cud, are unclean unto you: every one that toucheth them shall be unclean. Lev 11:27 And whatsoever goeth upon his paws, among all manner of beasts that go on all four, those are unclean unto you: whoso toucheth their carcase shall be unclean until the even. Lev 11:28 And he that beareth the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: they are unclean unto you. Lev 11:29 These also shall be unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind, Lev 11:30 And the ferret, and the chameleon, and the lizard, and the snail, and the mole. Lev 11:41 And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten. Lev 11:42 Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination. Lev 11:43 Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby. wild beasts > G2342 θηρίον thērion Thayer Definition: 1) an animal 2) a wild animal, wild beast, beast 3) metaphorically a brutal, bestial man, savage, ferocious Part of Speech: noun neuter Strongs> G2342 θηρίον thērion thay-ree'-on Diminutive from the same as G2339; a dangerous animal: - (venomous, wild) beast. Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, Lev 11:21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth; Lev 11:22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind. Lev 11:23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you. Lev 11:41 And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten. Lev 11:42 Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination. Lev 11:43 Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby. creeping things H8318 > שׁרץ sherets BDB Definition: 1) teeming or swarming things, creepers, swarmers 1a) of insects, animals, small reptiles, quadrupeds Part of Speech: noun masculine that creep > H8317 שׁרץ shârats BDB Definition: 1) (Qal) to teem, swarm, multiply 1a) to swarm, teem 1b2) to swarm Part of Speech: verb Lev 11:10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: Lev 11:11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. Lev 11:12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you. Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. Lev 11:13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray, Lev 11:14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind; Lev 11:15 Every raven after his kind; Lev 11:16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind, Lev 11:17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl, Lev 11:18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle, Lev 11:19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat. Lev 11:20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you. continued... Vic SeekGod.ca 3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. |
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05-14-2011, 07:59 PM
Post: #159
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RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food?
Soooo. In Peter's vision we know, without a shadow of a doubt that in that sheet were ALL Manner of fourfooted beasts FROM ALL THE EARTH, wild beasts, and fowls and creeping things--which were Unclean to Peter, a Jew. Why do we know that? Because it is clear. Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. kill >G2380 θύω thuō Thayer Definition: 1) to sacrifice, immolate 2) to slay, kill 2a) of the paschal lamb 3) slaughter eat>G5315 eaten> G5315 φάγω phagō Thayer Definition: 1) to eat 2) to eat (consume) a thing 2a) to take food, eat a meal 2b) metaphorically to devour, consume common >G2839 κοινός koinos Thayer Definition: 1) common 2) common, i.e. ordinary, belonging to generality 2a) by the Jews, unhallowed, profane, Levitically unclean Part of Speech: adjective unclean>G169 ἀκάθαρτος akathartos Thayer Definition: 1) not cleansed, unclean 1a) in a ceremonial sense: that which must be abstained from according to the levitical law 1b) in a moral sense: unclean in thought and life Part of Speech: adjective Here we have Peter saying that he has NEVER eaten anything common or unclean. Now Peter is very hungry according to verse 10. And here God is saying to kill and eat --all manner of beasts of the earth. But Peter, still bound to observing the Mosaic Law, says NO to God. Three times. And each time God said, "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. " cleansed> G2511 καθαρίζω katharizō Thayer Definition: 1) to make clean, cleanse 1a) from physical stains and dirt 1a1) utensils, food 1a2) a leper, to cleanse by curing 1a3) to remove by cleansing 1b) in a moral sense 1b1) to free from defilement of sin and from faults 1b2) to purify from wickedness 1b3) to free from guilt of sin, to purify 1b4) to consecrate by cleansing or purifying 1b5) to consecrate, dedicate 2) to pronounce clean in a levitical sense Part of Speech: verb So, Peter is very hungry, God gives him the vision of the sheet which holds every manner of beast on the earth, fowls and creeping things....which was clearly an affront and unclean according to the lists found in Leviticus. But each time Peter is told to kill and eat of those animals, fowl and creeping things, Peter said No to God, and God said, don't call something unclean that I have cleansed. Therefore. The first part of the vision has fully to do with food. Fully and completely. Because of Peter's response. So why did God make it perfectly clear that the vision contained unclean animals which He had now declared clean to eat, despite Peter's protests of never eating the unclean animals? And your issue of the passages not saying what he ate. It doesn't say Peter ate anything at all after the vision. So can we say he didn't ever eat anything after that, and even though the vision happened about the 6th hour? Rather the 3 Gentile messengers arrived and were waiting for him at the gate. Peter is told by the Spirit to go with them and not to doubt anything because God had sent them. And what does Peter do. He becomes totally obedient to the leading of the Spirit. He invites the Gentiles aka Italians, in to stay overnight. Gentiles staying in a Jewish home. Do you suppose the fact that they "lodged" there means they never got to eat anything either? lodged G3579 ξενίζω xenizō Thayer Definition: 1) to receive as a guest, to entertain, hospitably 1a) to be received hospitably 1b) to stay as a guest, to lodge 1c) be lodged 2) to surprise or astonish by the strangeness and novelty of a thing 2b) to think strange, be shocked Part of Speech: verb A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3581 There is a further understanding that Peter---and everyone else had to understand. That the reason God had made all creatures/food clean in the vision to Peter, and for those who believed Christ, was so they could share the gospel with both Jews and the Gentiles who were also given the opportunity to know Christ and receive the gift of salvation. The mystery that had been kept hidden and was now revealed. That all could come to Christ through faith. And the separation of the Jews from the Gentiles, which is why Peter said to Cornelius and the group, "Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation ". an unlawful thingG111 for a man that is a Jew to keep company,G2853 or come untoG4334 one of another nation;G246 an unlawful thing G111 ἀθέμιτος athemitos Thayer Definition: 1) contrary to law and justice, prohibited by law, illicit, criminal Part of Speech: adjective A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: (statute, from the base of G5087) to keep company,G2853 G2853 κολλάω kollaō Thayer Definition: 1) to glue, to glue together, cement, fasten together 2) to join or fasten firmly together 3) to join one’s self to, cleave to Part of Speech: verb A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from kolla (“glue”) come untoG4334 G4334 προσέρχομαι proserchomai Thayer Definition: 1) to come to, approach 2) draw near to 3) to assent to Part of Speech: verb A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4314 and G2064 (including its alternate) one of another nation;G246 G246 ἀλλόφυλος allophulos Thayer Definition: 1) foreign Part of Speech: adjective A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G243 and G5443 It was the common understanding of the Jews, in order to keep them a separate people from the other nations that they needed to remain separate. The law forbade the merging with Gentiles from other nations, including religious beliefs and in marriage, etc. because most nations were idolatrous and did not know God. Some of the pertaining laws, although not explicitly stating what Peter stated, were in Leviticus 18:24-30; Deuteronomy 7:2,3-12; and mentioned again in for example, Ezra 9:11-14. The Jews had carried the restrictions beyond the letter and the spirit and fully separated. They would not even consider eating with any who were uncircumcised.[Galatians 2:12, Acts 11:2-3] The homes and buildings of Gentiles were viewed as being unclean. [John 18:28] As was their food. It was considered unlawful to eat and drink anything in their homes or even enter into the home of a Gentile. So the people, their homes, their food etc. were all unclean to a Jew. In order to accept that the Gentiles were indeed approachable, could be in company with Jews--meaning to even walk together down a road--, that Jews could eat with and what Gentiles ate, it all had to be understood to have been cleansed by God. All of it. Because if one thought one aspect was unclean--it meant the others parts were also unclean. Because even a cleansed Gentile by the Holy Spirit, would become unclean if he ate unclean food according to the law. And the home would then also still be unclean. Leviticus chapter 15 gives the laws regarding menstruating women and a quick perusal reveals that a menstruating woman makes unclean anyone who touches her or anything that she has sat upon. Anyone who then touches what she sat upon is also rendered unclean. Similarly mens' emissions also make them unclean as well as whatever came into contact with such emissions. The emissions don’t have to be sexual and therefore, if anyone had a skin condition that was weepy, that would also render the person unclean. Therefore, a Gentile home would be totally out of bounds for an Israelite since there were so many potential sources of uncleanliness. The uncleanness was not just about the food, nor was it simply about race. That is why that wall of separation caused by the laws given by God through Moses to Israel, were removed by God, taken out of the way by the cross of Christ, to which they were nailed and abolished. Circumcision no longer made one clean just as uncircumcision did not mean one was unclean. Nor did those things now mean that one or the other groups was to be mutually avoided. Because the Gentiles also knew how they were viewed by the Jews. The Gospel was for all mankind-equally and in the same manner and doctrine. And all were accepted by God because of Christ. It was by faith in Christ and because of the cross and not because of the law. And now it was being made clear that cleansing and acceptance to God came through Christ. Peter was being taught, and then had to convey to others, that he/they were no longer obligated to abide by the customs and laws of the Jews in order to reach out and preach salvation to the Gentiles. Now came the test of obedience to God, and to gain full understanding as to why Peter was being shown he could eat all manner of creatures....so he and others could be a witness unto the Gentiles. The brethren from Joppa who accompanied Peter with the Gentiles, were all Jews. And they all went to Cornelius, his family and friends---who were all Gentiles--and entered Cornelius' house. Peter just broke the Mosaic Law--again. A Jew would not even be in company with a non Jew, let alone sit and eat with them. It was unlawful. But Peter fully understood that God is not a respector of persons. And the other Jews needed to learn the same thing. Act 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. Act 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, Act 11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. Act 11:4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying, Act 11:12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house: Act 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. By the time Acts 15 takes place, it's very feasible the incident in Galatians has happened. Where Peter fears the Jews who claimed to have been told by James that Gentiles needed to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. He had no problem living with and eating with the Gentiles before those came from James, but afterwards he separated from them and had nothing to do with them. They were back to being unclean--in spite of belonging to Christ, or being given the opportunity to know Christ by Peter's words. What a slap in the face to them. Peter had, while residing in Antioch, lived with the Gentile Christians according to their customs but all of a sudden, they were filthy and unclean again. James states clearly that they gave no such command and equates it to subverting the souls of those who heard it. Again these are things that have been discussed repeatedly. And which you Nearyah repeatedly refuse or ignore. The passage about Acts 21, needs to be addressed in the appropriate thread> http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=91 There's some other ones listed as well. Incidentally, neither James nor Paul were liars. You simply do not understand the Scriptures nor the Truth of the Gospel which is why you cannot and won't receive what is said. The liberty in Christ allows one to eat whatever, based on the needs of those one is with. It's called putting love of others before oneself. Quote:You have to understand how the Greek mind (Abrstract) works and how we have come to our popular belief today. Which is incomplete in terms of how the Hebrew mind (both external and physical) worked and how we are supposed to be in the body. Previously I’ve given the example of how we look at baptism. If you know what I know you could also use this example for fringes as well. Ahh the Greek mind, the Hebrew mind....and yet for believers...we have the mind of Christ. The indwelling of the Spirit to lead us into all Truth. And the Holy Spirit is neither Greek or Hebrew. Fancy that. For more on these topics and the ones you mentioned see> Myth. Christians are pagan and are lost unless they turn to Hebrew roots... > http://www.seekgod.ca/hr/hrfaqs.htm#pagan Myth. It is impossible to understand the Bible unless one uses a "Hebraic" mindset. Christians have a Greek mindset or western gentile mindset and therefore can't understand the true meaning of the Bible. http://www.seekgod.ca/hr/hrfaqs.htm#hebraic Myth: Hebrew Idioms, Hebraic Idioms, Hebrew Mindset, and a Hebraic Mindset are Necessary for Understanding the Scriptures > http://www.seekgod.ca/hr/hrfaqs.htm#idioms Myth. Jesus wore a tallit with the fringe knots representing the 613 commandments. And Myth. Jesus wore a prayer shawl (tallit) and so should we > http://www.seekgod.ca/hr/hrfaqs3c.htm#tal Myth. Clarity will comes through word studies and research with books like Hebrew dictionaries and lexicons. By recognizing Hebrew idioms and learning the differences between modern translations, bad translations and humanism., which muddle our understanding, but learning the ancient Hebrew language, is just the start to really studying the scriptures. We also need to learn the Hebrew culture. > http://www.seekgod.ca/hr/hrfaqs8.htm#clar Myth. The NT was originally written in Hebrew/Aramaic, not Greek because Greek is from pagan influences and/or filled with translation errors, which they must eliminate or "correct". http://www.seekgod.ca/hr/hrfaqs9.htm#heb Myth. Most of the Scriptures were originally written in the Hebrew and Aramaic languages http://www.seekgod.ca/hr/hrfaqs9.htm#heb Myth. Jesus and the apostles quoted exclusively from the Old Testament, and the New Testament writings were just meant to be letters, and were never to be considered Scripture. Therefore our doctrine must first come from the Law of Moses. The New Testament is merely discussing the Old Testament and is not Scripture inspired by God like the OT. > http://www.seekgod.ca/hr/hrfaqs9.htm#let Tallit > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=79 Tzitzit and Tefillin > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=175 A Jewish Gospel? > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=57 and many other threads. continued.... Vic SeekGod.ca 3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. |
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05-14-2011, 08:11 PM
Post: #160
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RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food?
Quote:Original quote: Ne’arYah: Needless to say, you already know I do not buy in to the idea that food itself is what’s being discussed. It was the activity of the person. The very thing that divided them was what the definition you provided said about the manner of Gentiles. They were sinners; they lived walked and even ate contrary to the laws of Elohim. So when they came to Mashiyach (the messiah) they were called to his yoke, to be his bond servant, and follow this if you will. They were called to give-up there lives and, follow after him and he taught nothing to them accept the law of Moses, which came from the Father. The Jews were sinners too, or did you miss that. That's why the perpetual sin offerings... Food is definitely discussed---because animals, clean and unclean were what Peter was referring to eating or not eating. God wasn't talking to him about killing and eating clean people and Peter wasn't talking about not eating unclean people. And being very hungry I am sure it was a bit of an issue to see clean mixed with the unclean for the Jews. And then being told to kill and eat those same animals. Because Gentiles could eat anything. It was the Jews that needed to learn that they were no longer to be separated by food/clean/unclean/ nor refraining from associating with non Jews, because the truth of the Gospel meant the law was nailed to the cross. Yes I know---you don't believe that either. That's ok, Nearyah. We get it. You don't want it to be other than what you want it to be. Quote:Original quote: Ne’arYah:So what law was against you Vic? Let’s see was it the law for you to love your Elohim? Or how about the law to love your mother or father? Maybe it was the law that tells judges not to take bribes from people… Nearyah, the Sinai covenant was given to >>Israel<<. The law written on our hearts goes way beyond and is different than that. It is the law of Christ because of the love of God, written on the hearts of those who believe. It is the Spirit of God, ie Spirit of Christ, ie the Holy Spirit that indwells and teaches us. It is the transforming by the renewing of our minds.... Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. There were Gentiles who by nature, did right before God. Not all followed pagan gods, but just as Romans 1 tells us. All had been given the knowledge of God, but most chose to turn to other things. But even those Gentiles who by nature did things that matched up to keeping the essence of the Mosaic Law---unless they and the Jews turned to Christ, they were still in sin. Attempting to keep the law could save no one. Sin still was in each person. No one had eternal life from keeping the law. Quote:We the people are to come out of our sinful ways in every which way to become set-apart to him according to his word. This is why he tells us plainly that – “ this crowd, which doesn't know the law, is accursed!" (John 7:49) WOW! what a twisting of the Scripture, Nearyah. John 7:49 was not Jesus talking. It was the Pharisees. Joh 7:45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him? Joh 7:46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man. Joh 7:47 Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? Joh 7:48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? Joh 7:49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed. The Pharisees were furious because Jesus had not been taken. Why? Because it wasn't His time, but those officers and the people were hearing what Jesus had to say. The Pharisees said those who listened to Jesus were deceived, citing that none of the rulers or Pharisees believed in Him. But, according to the Pharisees, the people who were believing Christ, did so because they did not know the law, and therefore were cursed. You need to stop attempting to teach anyone. You don't understand or know the Scriptures. That is plain as day. Quote:Original quote: Ne’arYah: I dare say you nor I have had the privilege to walk in the holy of holies literally. This goes back to what I said earlier about the Hebrew mind set being both internal and external; both are called upon because they both serve to give the person the concept. - Therefore," He said to them, "every student of Scripture instructed in the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who brings out of his storeroom what is new and what is old." (Matthew 13:52) Are you following? We take both… As I said Nearyah, believers have the mind of Christ. It has nothing to do with having a Hebrew mindset. It certainly didn't help those Jews who walked the earth at the time of Christ who rejected Him did it? And they had the law and the prophets and Moses. But those who rejected Him didn't believe, then, just as people today don't believe. It's not based on race. It's based on faith. The truth found in the law and the prophets and psalms all pointed to Christ, the salvation of God and the New Covenant--for all mankind including the Gentiles. Those who understood the Scriptures, see Christ and those truths in both the Old and the New. Both reveal God's Truth. . I had to laugh where you attempted to claim that the example given of Zacharias and Elizabeth keeping the law was your proof people can keep it. Zacharias was a priest in the Temple.. Do you have that same temple to go to? Are you keeping ALL the commandments, from sacrifices in the temple for sin and so on, precisely as given by God through Moses, in all things? If not, you incur the curses... Before Christ died, Zacharias and Elizabeth were doing what all Jews were supposed to be doing. However, one could still abide by the precepts of the law and harbour sin in their hearts, just as the pharisees did; they went to great lengths to keep the letter and missed the important things. Plus, not everyone was like Zacharias and Elizabeth. They were good people who loved and believed God, and very much so, in that they gave birth to John the Baptist, who was the prophesied messenger before the Lord. But on the whole, Israel was astray, and especially the leaders. As prophecy portrayed, the people were sheep without a shepherd. And what did Peter say in Acts 15---Why did the Jews want to put the YOKE on the Gentiles which neither they nor the fathers could bear? The yoke was the necessity of trying to keep all the ordinance and laws....and this before the temple was destroyed closing that issue forever. And Peter made that statement in Acts 15, because he and the others had and were learning that after Christ died and rose again, ushering in the New Covenant for all mankind, that no longer were they bound to that necessity. Jesus had said His yoke was easy and His burden was light. Far different than the yoke of the Law Peter made reference to. The Gospel was first preached in Jerusalem and spread from there. Peter getting the vision of the unclean animals and the timing of it ties in with the gospel moving out of Judea and Samaria, and ever outward from there. When Peter has the vision, it fits perfectly with the mission of the apostles, since for a time he was living among Gentiles, to show the truth of the prophecy of salvation to the Gentiles as well as the Jews, and to bring them to Christ. He was spreading the gospel to the Gentiles to confirm the truth that they too could be saved...that was part of his mission. And for him it was fully necessary to understand that not only were all those animals now clean to eat, but the Gentiles who ate them without a thought, were also able to be clean before God, because of Christ. And he and others needed to be able to sit and eat with whoever God put in their hearts to share the Truth of Jesus Christ with. Because no longer were people unclean simply because of who they were by race, just as people were no longer clean by race or the law. All were separated from God because He declared all under sin. And there was no way to Him except through Jesus Christ. It was all about Christ. Quote:Are you following the text you provided? It’s telling you that these people confused Paul’s words and then confused the scriptures (Genesis through Malachi) by his words. This means that the two have to line-up, so if you say Paul says don’t do something mentioned in the scriptures, and Peter is telling you that those who are not well instructed by the scriptures will miss the message Paul is giving… Do you think you fall on Peter’s side with this? Am I not the one correcting what you say according to the Law? We can start with the food laws, is that not in the law, and aren’t you telling me to leave it back there because Paul says otherwise? Nearyah. The Scriptures include the epistles and letters of the apostles, and the gospels--theNT. That's why Peter was writing to the believers and telling those things. People who couldn't understand Paul's teachings, which he had written to those same believers, Peter was writing to also and the same teachings were found in Paul's other epistles----which were Scripture, just as Peter's writings were Scripture, because the apostles were laying the foundation of the doctrine for all believers--and in Paul's writings were SOME things which were hard to be understood. And those who were unstable or unlearned perverted, twisted, to their own destruction. Sort of like the example above of you twisting and not comprehending what John 7:49 said and by whom. 2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him ***hath written unto you; *** >>As also in all his epistles, >>>speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, *****which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, ****as they do also the other scriptures,***** unto their own destruction wrest G4761 στρεβλόω strebloō Thayer Definition: 1) to twist, turn awry 2) to torture, put to the rack 3) metaphorically to pervert, of one who wrests or tortures language in a false sense You are not correcting me in anything Nearyah, because you do not understand the Scriptures or the Truth of the Gospel. You cannot teach what you do not know. As has been shown, throughout this thread, the law was nailed to the cross, abolished, made obsolete, blotted out, so that God could make one new man, through faith in Jesus Christ. The wall of separation as found because of the separation of Jews and Gentiles, because of the things of the law, was now removed by Christ. The promised New Covenant, not like the covenant given to Israel, was now enacted. The very term, not like, means it is different. It is not the same. Each are unique for the purposes of God. That is His choice. As far as your claim Paul said to keep the food laws....I think this is where your wresting the Scriptures to your own destruction takes place. How many times, in how many verses did Paul address the issue of food? And how many times have they been posted into this and other threads? More than I care to count. Romans 14:14-23 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16. Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17. For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19. Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 20. For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21. It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. 1Co 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: 1Co 10:26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. 1Co 10:27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. Nearyah, I think this topic has been exhaustive in scope to you. You can accept or reject what has been said. But I think it's time for you to move on from this thread. And that doesn't mean hijack other threads and spew the same things over and over again. You need to lose the idea you are here to teach anything. Because you are not. 1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. Vic SeekGod.ca 3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. |
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