General questions for former Messianics

[sheep wrecked]

(08-11-2009 05:52 PM)grafted Wrote:  Is it not the same God who judges us both, equally?
If a Jew or Christian does something to honor the Lord, is he not pleased, or is Romans 14 simply Paul's musing about what-ifs?

Paul is not comparing Jews [the circumcised] to Christians, nor is he speaking to the unconverted Jews, to but Christians aka believers who are disputing how to practice Christianity. You are mixing Judaism and Christianity - the same mistake that Messianics make.

Think: Judaism and old covenant
Christianity and new covenant

[Emjesown]

The New Covenant in Christ explains that the Law of Moses and the prophets "hang" on the two commandments [Love God above all, love your neighbor as yourself]. I have heard it referred to as a summary of the Law.

We also know that in the NT, that the Law of Christ, is not the Law of Moses. Although some laws or commandments from Torah are part of the new covenant, they are defined and practiced differently in the New Covenant. Love for God and love for one's neighbor exceeds what is written in Torah because the Law of Moses is written on stone, but the Law of Christ is written on the heart.
[/quote]

About the difference between old and new.

Jesus extended the law so to speak, some parts are even heavyer...like
adultry is forbidden but
he who looks at a woman with lust....etc etc.
Thinking of something that is forbidden .....
And if you count all the do's and don'ts in the NT, there are much more "rules"then in the OT,to be precise!

Torah WAS theyre teacher and guide.
Holy Spirit is given to guide us from within.
Mabey the same laws, sort of,
but other aplcation.
New wine in new bottles.
Purefie theinside of the cup, not the outside.
And when the inside is clean, it shows on the outside(fruits of thespirit.)

EMJE

[SheitlQueen]

Quote:Jesus extended the law so to speak, some parts are even heavier...like
adultry is forbidden but
he who looks at a woman with lust....etc etc.
Thinking of something that is forbidden .....

Isn't that like adding fences around the Torah.....something Christians tend to
deride about Judasim?

[sheep wrecked]

(08-12-2009 12:40 PM)SheitlQueen Wrote:  Isn't that like adding fences around the Torah.....something Christians tend to
deride about Judasim?

Actually, it's the Messianics that say Judaism builds fences around Torah. So then they can keep the Mosaic Law purer than the Jews [the forbidden "replacement theology" they accuse everyone else of]. Which is really a joke because they use Talmudic sources to the keep the Law anyway. I think messys are confused

[SheitlQueen]

(08-12-2009 03:55 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  So then they can keep the Mosaic Law purer than the Jews

That's right, they are practicing "real, first century Judaism"

Quote:Which is really a joke because they use Talmudic sources to the keep the Law anyway.

I've never understood that either-they pick and choose what they
want to accept and follow. Inconsistent...
I think they follow what ever seems to make them "appear" the
most Jewish.

Quote: I think messys are confused [/b][/color]

I agree....

[sheep wrecked]

(08-12-2009 04:04 PM)SheitlQueen Wrote:  I've never understood that either-they pick and choose what they
want to accept and follow. Inconsistent...
I think they follow what ever seems to make them "appear" the
most Jewish.

They love to say that they don't have to keep what does not apply to them and that way, they can avoid keeping most of it. The messys are big on kosher, the Sabbath, and the feasts. They rarely talk about anything else. Well, except for the tallit and kippa which make them feel good - kind of like a stage performance for the Jewish people. They are looking for a standing ovation, but instead are dodging tomatoes If only they knew how silly they looked

[Emjesown]

(08-12-2009 12:40 PM)SheitlQueen Wrote:  

Quote:Jesus extended the law so to speak, some parts are even heavier...like
adultry is forbidden but
he who looks at a woman with lust....etc etc.
Thinking of something that is forbidden .....

Isn't that like adding fences around the Torah.....something Christians tend to
deride about Judasim?

I dont see it as a fence
Jesus just said to go a step further.
When someone ask your skirt........give him your coat to ( or something)
Dont just DON't do adultry, but don t even think about it.

Love they neigbur goes further then be nice to him.
And if you don t understand what fornication is...
you can always go back to leviticus 18 or 19 (*smile)

EMJE

[SheitlQueen]

Quote:I dont see it as a fence
Jesus just said to go a step further.

But that is what a fence is- going a step further, adding an extra "layer of protection"
to prevent breaking Torah law/causing sin.

[sheep wrecked]

(08-12-2009 11:22 PM)SheitlQueen Wrote:  

Quote:I dont see it as a fence
Jesus just said to go a step further.

But that is what a fence is- going a step further, adding an extra "layer of protection"
to prevent breaking Torah law/causing sin.

Does Judaism consider the Talmud as adding fences to prevent breaking Torah? I don't think I have really heard it from their perspective, only from the Messianic side. I would be interested to hear your view on this

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:How can he be "establishing it for the first time" when this is a direct quote from the Torah?

Leviticus 19:18 18. You shall neither take revenge from nor bear a grudge against the members of your people; you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord

What Jesus is teaching there is actually different to the Torah.
Notice the two words in the Leviticus verse, "your people".
Jews will often go out of their way to perform mitzvot etc in relation to their own.However gentiles are not considered the "neighbour here" .Am I correct Sheitlqueen,please do correct me if I am wrong.

We see that when Jesus taught on this he also said


Luk 10:27 And he answering said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.
Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, You have answered right: this do, and you shall live.
Luk 10:29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbor?
Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
Luk 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
Luk 10:35 And on the next day when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the innkeeper, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever you spend more, when I come again, I will repay you.
Luk 10:36 Which now of these three, think you, was neighbor unto him that fell among the thieves?
Luk 10:37 And he said, He that showed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do you likewise.

Mat 5:43 You have heard that it has been said, You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you, and persecute you;

I see Jesus extended the concept of who the neighbour was...it was no longer one of your own people only. So he did introduce something new.