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Kalev · (This post was last modified: 09-14-2011 11:14 AM by Vic.)

I believe your understanding of the Hebrew Roots movement is skewed by some of the HR teachers you have heard about. It is not about being "Jewish" or mixing Judaism with Christianity. Both religions have altered the Word of God and adopted various forms of pagan worship into their belief system. Never having been Jewish I cannot properly address the pagan worship in that belief system. Having been raised in a Protestant Christian environment I can address that. How many people on this forum have taken a deep and close look at the Christian holidays? Like Christmas and Easter? Both are directly from pagan worship systems, Saturnalia is mithraism and Ishtar is directly from Nimrods Babylon. That in and of itself was enough to chase me out of Christendom. I use two websites as reference points as I have altered my belief in our Creator and His only begotten Son, {Links removed--Newbies are NOT allowed to post links as per forum rules. PLease read them if you have not done so--Vic} , please look into them and try to rethink your opinion of the Hebrew Roots movement.
God bless you, peace and love!

***Vic*** · 09-14-2011, 11:18 AM

Kalev,

Please note the above removal of links you posted. PLease read the forum rules about these issues, so it is no longer an issue.

Regarding the holidays and misinformation you have, please seek the appropriate threads discussing those things. Regarding HR< there is no confusion or misunderstanding. PLease take the time to read the scriptural and factual refutations and including the Hebrew Roots Faqs and Myths and all related articles on my site and on this forum. HR teachings and movement are contrary to the Scriptures.

Kalev · 09-14-2011, 03:05 PM

I missed the link prohibition and apologize for that. I have been studying with what you might describe as a Hebrew Roots group for 3-1/2 years and have found none of the accusations you have presented in you Faqs and Myths section, especially "contrary to Scriptures". I have found a number of Hebrew Roots teachers that do teach contrary to Scripture but not to the extent you imply in your Facts and Myths section. My understanding of the Bible has increased at a rate never before realized in that time, which has pointed out many errors in modern Protestant Christianity. I do not mean to offend, I believe in searching for the truth and forums such as these help me in my search.

computerdoc · (This post was last modified: 10-27-2011 02:34 PM by Vic.)

The problems is in the fact that they have wierd idea's and teachings.
Torah Torah.....back to Moses camp,,,,,live like the Israelites live etc.
Back then i believed it all and embraced it all, loved it.
But same way i would leave evangelicals because of false teachings, i left the messianics because of fals teachings.

What i still have after all this?
I am a re-born child of the most high,
i have Jesus as Saviour,
God as Father,
the hope for a new earth
the assurence to belong to God's family.
Still looking for answers , stil have questions.
Ans still bothered by the brainwash in the messianic movement.

Did 'n t want to make this such along post, sorry

EMJE
[/quote]

Mississippi: The problem is that there are true Messianic Jews [Jews that have become Christians but like an Hebraic-style service] and there are those who put the stress on the torah when Jesus already fulfilled the Torah. He finished it. Completed it. That's it!

Matthew 22:37-40
New International Version (NIV)
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Jesus unburdened us from constantly checking which laws we were breaking by dying for us. When he says "40 [b]All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”", for some strange reason I tend to believe him. That means if I do the above, I am fulfilling all the rest of the law and the prophets!

I also believe what Paul said to those who were going back to the law [which did serve its purpose in its time]

1 Timothy 1:8-11
New International Version (NIV)
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me[/i][/b]

I think I can trust Jesus [Yeshua] and Paul more than some whose motives may not be quite so pure.

I am not Jewish, have a love for the land of Israel and many Jewish things, have been twice with my wife.

But we had a young person in our church who unfortunately went from being a rebel Christian to a rebel Messianic and is mixing Torah with Christianity.

I pray for him for he has the ability and has led several people astray. [a lot of itching ears?]

God bless you!

If we try to keep the Law we will perish, if we do not try to keep the Law we wil perish. So the question is crucial: which Spirit, if any, are we in a personal relationship with
[/quote]

That is why we need to go back to Jesus or Yeshua not Moses, or even Abraham.

1 Timothy 1:8-11
New International Version (NIV)
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me

Matthew 22:37-40
New International Version (NIV)
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

What could be clearer than that?
Computerdoc

There were many challenges being a gentile diving into the Jewish world. It became frustrating for me because I could not access what was necessary to live a correct halacha. For awhile, in the height of my kashrut life style, I ended up getting kosher meat from a Chasidic Rabbi in town. I would go to his synagogue where he had meat shipped in from Iowa that was Rabbinically butchered. One time he asked me why, as a gentile, I would take on the burden of Torah. I looked at him and smiled, saying that I did it because I loved Ha Shem. He just shook his head at me. I will never forget that. I should have listened to him Sign0007

[/color]
[/quote]

Not all messianics are torah-observant. They are the noobies that seem to want to go back.

I cannot put the link but the best website to see what is wrong with the perverted Messianic message and the real one is check at {Links removed--Newbies are NOT allowed to post links as per forum rules. PLease read them if you have not done so--Vic}
Not torah-observant
Jesus-Holy-Spirit-observant in Niagara
Computerdoc

We always with any teaching have to discern what is true and throw out the rest, cause there is no earthly teacher who has it all correct, and we should not look to men because they always will fail.
[/quote]

karebare you do seem to have some balance.

However in the HR movement anything which takes the attention off Jesus and the Holy Spirit in your life can be false. No judgement, just saying. Nowhere [I stand to be corrected] does it say to stop practising the feasts ..... so you can .... however since many of them relate to the Jewish experience of captivity and passover etc. then it does not have the meaning to a Christian.

This is my answer to any who are truly Messianic. The first Messianic was Yeshua and he said this:

Matthew 22:37-40
New International Version (NIV)

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

So if I practise listening to the spirit and honoring God first and my neighbour second, then I have fulfilled what the law and prophets were sent to accomplish.

God bless you!
Computerdoc

***Vic*** · (This post was last modified: 10-25-2011 04:11 PM by Vic.)

Apologies folks. Been busy with family and such. Computerdoc, welcome to the forum.

This thread has been totally taken off topic. Sorry Sheitl. And it would appear it has become quite passionate in the responses and topics.

ALL SUCCESSIVE POSTS TO COMPUTERDOC'S POST ABOVE AND VARIED TOPICAL DISCUSSION HAVE BEEN MOVED HERE:
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.p...64#pid8364

Please consider taking the time to introduce yourself to other members here: http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=17

First there are existing Threads or articles for:

Talmud/kabbalah: http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=155
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=233

Keeping the feasts or not> HR FAQS & Myths > http://www.seekgod.ca/hr/hrfaqs3a2.htm#kosher
http://www.seekgod.ca/hr/hrfaqs3a2.htm#feasts
http://www.seekgod.ca/topichr.htm#faqs > http://www.seekgod.ca/topichr.htm#faq3

threads> http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=160
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=500
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=61
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=154
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=333
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=245
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=63
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=79
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=175
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=65

Seder >The Passover Seder is a Rabbinic Talmudic tradition that was not conceptualized until after the first century. In the middle ages, most of what is used in the Seder today was added at that point. Therefore it is not what Jesus or the apostles did or conveyed as needed to be kept. > this thread actually goes into the seder and feasts see posts 28 and 33, 35, 39-43 at least > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.p...ight=seder

Belonging to Christ is not about race or heritage > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=276

As an aside CP, not posting links is really meaning not posting links. Including the way you've been posting them. I know it's a pain but, in all fairness, you really have been posting/promoting links in almost every post and directing readers to that one particular HR site, plus now all the other links. Maybe hold off doing that until you get your 50 posts. Thanks.

11-28-2011, 04:15 AM

(08-11-2009 08:13 AM)heb13-13 Wrote:
(08-11-2009 04:13 AM)SheitlQueen Wrote:
Quote:What does the Royal Law mean to you?

I have never heard that terminology before, so I guess it means nothing to Jews

What is it?

The Royal Law is spoken of in the Book of James in the New Testament. This is the only occurrence in the NT.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Jas 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
Jas 2:3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
Jas 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Jas 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
Jas 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I have some friends that say the "Royal Law" is the ten commandments but as you can see in the context, it is Loving your neighbor as yourself".

I am thinking that James used the term Royal, because Jesus is our Lord and King and Moses was not a King, so the ten commandments are not the Royal Law. James is establishing what it is for the first time, "Love your neighbor as thyself".

Which makes sense and agrees with the rest of NT scripture.

For Jesus said the following:
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Paul says in another place (Letter to the Romans):
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Anyway, thank you for confirming what I did not know, but suspected and that is that you have never heard of the Royal Law connected with the ten commandments which would make sense. Indeed, Jewish people have never heard of the Royal Law, period.

You have heard of Loving your Neighbor as Yourself, but not as connected to the term, "Royal Law".

Hi, this is Paul I am new. It says to love your neighbor but, what if your neighbor tells you they are evil FOR REAL?

Mary · (This post was last modified: 11-28-2011 03:39 PM by Mary.)

(11-28-2011 04:15 AM)Paul22 Wrote:
(08-11-2009 08:13 AM)heb13-13 Wrote:
(08-11-2009 04:13 AM)SheitlQueen Wrote:
Quote:What does the Royal Law mean to you?

I have never heard that terminology before, so I guess it means nothing to Jews

What is it?

The Royal Law is spoken of in the Book of James in the New Testament. This is the only occurrence in the NT.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Jas 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
Jas 2:3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
Jas 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Jas 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
Jas 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I have some friends that say the "Royal Law" is the ten commandments but as you can see in the context, it is Loving your neighbor as yourself".

I am thinking that James used the term Royal, because Jesus is our Lord and King and Moses was not a King, so the ten commandments are not the Royal Law. James is establishing what it is for the first time, "Love your neighbor as thyself".

Which makes sense and agrees with the rest of NT scripture.

For Jesus said the following:
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Paul says in another place (Letter to the Romans):
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Anyway, thank you for confirming what I did not know, but suspected and that is that you have never heard of the Royal Law connected with the ten commandments which would make sense. Indeed, Jewish people have never heard of the Royal Law, period.

You have heard of Loving your Neighbor as Yourself, but not as connected to the term, "Royal Law".
Hi, this is Paul I am new. It says to love your neighbor but, what if your neighbor tells you they are evil FOR REAL?

they are asking you to love them, FOR REAL.

Matthew chapter 5, Luke Chapter 6, Proverbs Chapter 16.......