Bill Cloud

[grafted]

[mod note: Bill Cloud's website is BillCloud. I have disabled the hotlinks]


Start your discussion here.

[Strefanash]

Cloud, who I had never heard of before today, said on his site in a post about signs and wonders, that a true prophet would never have the people forsake the commandments. He also said that belief is not mere assent but action as well.

Both these things are true BUT the legalist countertfeit of these is easily spotted.

The moment he thinks that "obeying the law" equals walking in the spirit he is in deep error.

Of course true teaching of grace does not deny the Law. as St Paul said it affirms the Law, but uses it properly.

It is my increasingly clear understanding of what legalism the sin is that makes me immune to the blandishments of others, but of course i still have my own legalistic compulsions to be brough to repent of.

The enticement of HR seems to be that of the self righteous need to feign obedience of God, all while insisting that their obedience is real. This is oposed on the other hand by the loving desire in faith to obey him, and is seen by our characters, our fruit. This is coupled with a sense that the gospel should be connected with its historical roots.

But the roots of the gospel are the one man and his god faith of abraham, not Jewish Law.

I think that the thing that activates these two concerns is a deep dissatisfaction with the Church as it is today. And i think they are right, the church is pathetic, but as is often the case the prescription (ie what to do) is often totally wrong even thought the diagnosis of the problem is correct

I may not have put it clearly here but the counterfeit of HR is clear to me. It is in fact biblical legalism done more consistently than most; and of course legalism either fans the self righteousnes of those who think they keep the law by these efforts, or inflame the despair of those who know full well that their efforts do not constiturte obedience or faith but are too p[roud or afraid to see any other alternative.

I was the latter of these two

Of course legalism is not confined to HR, thougt HR is one appealing and enticing form of it, for its use of ancient hebrew imagery and symbolism persuades the unwary that they are indeed going back to the ancient and authentic gospel of the God of Israel.

Yet it is not a return to God for firstly flesh cannot do this of its own initiative, so it is not God they are returning to; and secondly a law Code, even though given by God, is not primarily what God is about, so God might use the Law to bring us to christ, but not use the truth of the gospel to put us under the Law

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As I said I never heard of the man before today. It does make me wonder though: such a plethora of teachers there are these days. What did St JAmes say "let not many become teachers knowing this will incur a stricter judgement". So much talk, so many teachers doing the talking, and a terrible judgement to come because of it?

[Vic]

(07-04-2009 06:22 PM)grafted Wrote:  http://www.billcloud.org/
http://www.godslearningchannel.com/tools...ll%20Cloud
Start your discussion here.

Here's a bit of what I have on Bill Cloud: from http://www.seekgod.ca/mjaaexecutives.htm

Bill Cloud is discussed in the Seek God article More Ecumenical Comrades.

Bill Cloud is a Gentile who studied under a rabbi and learned, through the study of Gematria, the Kabbalist interpretation of the Bible. His bio states:

"...he has spent many hours studying, not only the Hebrew text, but the Jewish roots of Christianity as well. This research has been rewarded with a keen insight into Biblical Judaism and its relationship to Christianity. Also, the Lord has given Bill the somewhat unique ability to understand the mysterious aspects of the Hebrew language such as the meaning of the letters, Gematria and the Torah Code phenomena. He first heard of Torah Codes back in 1989 and for the past several years has dedicated hundreds of hours researching this phenomena."

"This interest is tied into Bill's desire to unlock the deep secrets of the Word of God and to teach them, along with our Jewish roots, to the Church. Furthermore, this insight has allowed Bill to understand prophetic scripture...a licenced minister with the Church of God, served as the Youth Pastor in a large church in Central Florida. Since then, he has moved on to work with Perry Stone as a researcher, writer and speaker. Over the past two years, Bill has written articles for the Voice of Evangelism magazine, as well as for God's News Behind The News." http://www.prophezine.com/alliance/billcloud/

Voice of Evangelism >http://www.voe.org/home.cfm> is Perry Stone's ministry. We are reminded that Jews who do not know the Lord Jesus Christ are bound by the law. We cannot access their interpretation of the New Testament, and even the Old Testament is suspect to false interpretation by those who do not have Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:10-12 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

As has been proven, Gematria is a kabbalist teaching that Christians have no business dabbling in. It is the occult..."

As an aside, Bill Cloud of Shoreshim [Roots] Ministries, who was recently seen on the Christian station, Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN) with host and longtime associate Perry Stone of "Manna-fest". Bill Cloud is a regular speaker at both Prophecy Conferences and Hebraic Roots conferences, and was on a "Texas Tour with Brad Scott" in July 2004. Both are featured speakers at events sponsored by Monte Judah of Lion and Lamb Ministries, who also promotes and sells Brad Scott's tapes and teachings. Monte Judah has been billed at another groups gathering as the "Moses of America". Bill Cloud's teachings very much reflect Brad's Scott's and others in the push to "Hebraic Roots" or 'getting back' to "our" Jewish Roots. Please see the series about Brad Scott in the Ministries and Leaders section: Brad Scott - Part 1: Introduction & Mountain West Mountain West Hebrew University Courses Brad Scott - Part 2: Pure Language & Sacred Name Brad Scott - Part 3: Gematria & the Apostle Paul Brad Scott - Part 4 : Torah Observant Gentile & Under the Law

It needs to be made very clear that the influx of kabbalah is not just a "Messianic" issue. The inroads into Christian forums, teachings and churches is happening daily. 'Christian' icons such as Grant Jeffrey, readily teach it in their writings, in interviews, such as his television interview with Benny Hinn, promotion of kabbalist gematria via 'Bible codes' and so on. Grant's latest promotion of the zohar found on his web site, presents the 'kabbalist trinity. 6 ..."

[Strefanash]

"This interest is tied into Bill's desire to unlock the deep secrets of the Word of God and to teach them, along with our Jewish roots, to the Church."

Stref: this is a dead giveaway!! They seek the deep secrets of the word of God for they, like many of us (and certainly myself), ignore what is written in plain text.

Years of prayer study and logic have lead me to finally consider the love of God for the first time in 30 years. And now I realise it was all stated there in the plainest of text.

they do not want to repent of why they are blind to the plain text, so, dimly aware that they are hungry for something, they assume they actually believe the plain text and go looking for something beneath it. This is the mindset behind the gnostic heresy.

Likewise they have not distinguished between the "Hebrewness" of the OT (so to speak) and the heresies that some Jewis practised, namely kabbala.

When we miss the plainly visible, either plainly visible in creation or the scriptures it behoves us to seek God to be lead to repent of why we miss these things, and not go hieing off after mysteries of the wrong kind

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Grant Jeffrey is still being given a hearing? It was he who predicted with much fanfare (if memory serves correctly) disaster from the Y2K bug. EVen if he did not specifically prophecy it in the name of the Lord he spoke as a minister of God. Because this event did not happen, he is a false prophet in my opinion and should be rejected. I have certainly rejected his ministry

[Rachel R]

(07-04-2009 06:45 PM)Strefanash Wrote:  Cloud, who I had never heard of before today, said on his site in a post about signs and wonders, that a true prophet would never have the people forsake the commandments. He also said that belief is not mere assent but action as well.

Both these things are true BUT the legalist countertfeit of these is easily spotted.

The moment he thinks that "obeying the law" equals walking in the spirit he is in deep error.

Of course true teaching of grace does not deny the Law. as St Paul said it affirms the Law, but uses it properly.

It is my increasingly clear understanding of what legalism the sin is that makes me immune to the blandishments of others, but of course i still have my own legalistic compulsions to be brough to repent of.

The enticement of HR seems to be that of the self righteous need to feign obedience of God, all while insisting that their obedience is real. This is oposed on the other hand by the loving desire in faith to obey him, and is seen by our characters, our fruit. This is coupled with a sense that the gospel should be connected with its historical roots.

But the roots of the gospel are the one man and his god faith of abraham, not Jewish Law.
<snip>

I'm brand new here and don't want to get off on the wrong foot, but this sentence stood out to me.
I consider myself to be "Hebrew Roots" and as such, I believe we have the Law written in our hearts....i.e., we still obey it! Not the letter of the law but the spirit of the law. We still have to obey our Father!!
How does this make me a fake? How is that "feigning obedience?"

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:I'm brand new here and don't want to get off on the wrong foot, but this sentence stood out to me.
I consider myself to be "Hebrew Roots" and as such, I believe we have the Law written in our hearts....i.e., we still obey it! Not the letter of the law but the spirit of the law. We still have to obey our Father!!
How does this make me a fake? How is that "feigning obedience?" 2c2

Hi Rachel welcome!
I cannot answer for Stref but would like to comment since I was once caught up in thinking that I had to obey the Mosaic Law too.
Maybe what stref meant is that its a feigned obedience because true obedience to God does not mean walking in the letter of the Law since it is not what God is requiring of us after Jesus ushered in a new covenant.

Looking forward to your discussions