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~~pastor_chris~~ · 07-23-2009, 11:28 PM

Rick,

I am sorry. I am obviously wrong. God bless you

~~Liberated by Faith~~ · 07-24-2009, 02:49 AM

Being a former pastor, I can attest that pastor's do a lot more than preach three times a week. A pastor has to spend many hours preparing for a sermon. Besides that, even though the Word of God says deacons are to do material work for the Church, the majority of the time it is the pastor who does the job because the congregation requires it. He takes time away from his family and job to appease the members of his flock.

Contrary to the belief of many, all who are Christians should be under the guidance of a pastor in a local fellowship. Jesus is not our pastor. Years after his resurrection and ascension, He gave us pastors, teachers, evangelists, prophets and apostles for a purpose. The pastor would not have been given had Christ wanted us to shun going to a local fellowship. Scripture tells us not to forsake the assembling together... that means we are to gather. It is a directive in the Word of God for the children of God.

The command for the Elder to feed the flock was not there just to fill up a blank space in the Bible. It was there because God wants the flock to submit to that authority that He has placed in the local assembly.

Your attack of pastor Chris was not showing Christian love for the Brethren at all. Scripture tells us not to rebuke an elder, but rather to entreat him. The rebuke of pastor Chris was contrary to the Word of God.

If we are going to call ourselves children of God, we should be obeying His Holy Word... and that includes submitting to that authority in the local church... the pastor.

Pastor Chris did not come to this thread to pastor anyone, he knows where God wants him to pastor. He came here for fellowship.

You cannot show hatred toward God's pastors on the earth or deny his directive to assemble under the pastors teachings and say you love God. Your actions prove otherwise.

~~pastor_chris~~ · 07-24-2009, 03:37 AM

Thanks Liberated. I was feeling pretty picked on. Nice to know that I am not alone

heb13-13 · (This post was last modified: 07-24-2009 09:39 AM by heb13-13.)

(07-24-2009 02:49 AM)Liberated by Faith Wrote: Being a former pastor, I can attest that pastor's do a lot more than preach three times a week.

Ahhhh Liberated,

There are so many incorrect statements in your post. With beliefs like this, no wonder the sheep are in such terrible condition, today. You hold to a false view of a pastor and elder. Maybe we need a thread on what a pastor/elder is or what church is. But, I guess this thread will do.

You said, "Being a former pastor"

I have never heard of such a thing as being a "former" pastor unless you have given back your gift to God. You may no longer have a paid job with the title of Pastor, but you should still have God's gifting of pastor. Unless you believe you never had this gifting to begin with.

I think you guys link your gifting too much with the paid position and title. You do know, the gifting of pastor does not come as a result of a seminary degree?

Part of our problem here is that Pastor as a paid profession and Pastor as a gifting and calling of God are being used interchangeably and causing a bit of confusion so to be clear can you explain what you mean by "former" Pastor??

Which brings me to my next point and that is the question of Authority.
I guess we will need to talk about several things:
Authority from God or Authority from Man
Called by God or Called by Man
Does a Title and a Paid Job equal Authority and Calling from God.

I will grant you however, that if people willingly put themselves under the Authority of an organization, they ought to abide by the rules. Doesn't mean they can't leave if they see that they made a mistake, but they should leave peacefully and quietly.

I will have to continue this later, because I have quite a lot to do today.

~~Liberated by Faith~~ · 07-24-2009, 11:10 AM

(07-24-2009 08:58 AM)heb13-13 Wrote:

(07-24-2009 02:49 AM)Liberated by Faith Wrote: Being a former pastor, I can attest that pastor's do a lot more than preach three times a week.

Ahhhh Liberated,

There are so many incorrect statements in your post. With beliefs like this, no wonder the sheep are in such terrible condition, today. You hold to a false view of a pastor and elder. Maybe we need a thread on what a pastor/elder is or what church is. But, I guess this thread will do.

You said, "Being a former pastor"

I have never heard of such a thing as being a "former" pastor unless you have given back your gift to God. You may no longer have a paid job with the title of Pastor, but you should still have God's gifting of pastor. Unless you believe you never had this gifting to begin with.

I think you guys link your gifting too much with the paid position and title. You do know, the gifting of pastor does not come as a result of a seminary degree?

Part of our problem here is that Pastor as a paid profession and Pastor as a gifting and calling of God are being used interchangeably and causing a bit of confusion so to be clear can you explain what you mean by "former" Pastor??

Which brings me to my next point and that is the question of Authority.
I guess we will need to talk about several things:
Authority from God or Authority from Man
Called by God or Called by Man
Does a Title and a Paid Job equal Authority and Calling from God.

I will grant you however, that if people willingly put themselves under the Authority of an organization, they ought to abide by the rules. Doesn't mean they can't leave if they see that they made a mistake, but they should leave peacefully and quietly.

I will have to continue this later, because I have quite a lot to do today.

Allow me to clarify on why I said I am no longer a pastor. After 8 years of pastoring I was forced to step down from the pulpit due to health reasons. Today, I have COPD and asthma that prevent me from singing two lines from a song without coughing through the rest of it. Unless God intervenes, I can no longer pastor a local assembly due to my health.

And I do know that one need not to attend a seminary to be a pastor. Pastor's are God-called, not man-made. God does not call the qualified, He qualifies the called.

I never attended a seminary. I sat under sound teaching and preaching at a local assembly as God commands and studied the Word of God for many years after my release from prison before I felt the call of God to go into the ministry.

Once again, you judge harshly and wrongly.

Please do not

~~pastor_chris~~ · 07-24-2009, 03:36 PM

Liberated,

Brother I do not judge you and neither does Jesus! I am sure you served the Lord faithfully until you knew you could not any longer. Anyone who would condemn you does so out of a false sense of pride and superiority. I am sure that Hebrews isn't condemning you because I am sure he is a man of God that would never fall into the pitfall of pride (right Hebrews?).

Anyways brother the Lord will reward your faithful service. And by the way there is NOTHING wrong with anything you said above. Every bit of it is true and I commend you for being courageous enough to speak out! God bless you brother!

heb13-13 · 07-24-2009, 05:57 PM

(07-24-2009 11:10 AM)Liberated by Faith Wrote: Rick said this:
I think you guys link your gifting too much with the paid position and title. You do know, the gifting of pastor does not come as a result of a seminary degree?

Lib said this:
And I do know that one need not to attend a seminary to be a pastor. Pastor's are God-called, not man-made. God does not call the qualified, He qualifies the called.

I never attended a seminary. I sat under sound teaching and preaching at a local assembly as God commands and studied the Word of God for many years after my release from prison before I felt the call of God to go into the ministry.

Once again, you judge harshly and wrongly.

Please do not

Guys,

We need to talk about speaking forthrightly and not being so oversensitive and touchy-feely. I am weighing your words, not judging you.

Lib, I re-read my post and don't see where I judged you. I did however "weigh" the words that you typed and then asked you a simple question.

The statement about Seminary was a general statement and it is plain for anyone to see that it was not directed at you.

It was a question, I asked, and here it is in quotes.

"I think you guys link your gifting too much with the paid position and title. You do know, the gifting of pastor does not come as a result of a seminary degree?"

Translation: Some people think that you can only be a Pastor if you have the requisite academic schooling for it. Of course, most Institutions require it.

But we know, don't we, that the only school worth anything is the School of the Holy Spirit!!!

It is the only one that comes with an Eternal degree. All the other ones just burn up and are worthless when presented to the Lord.

You know what I'm talking about, right?
FOAU - Furnace of Affliction University.

Go SAINTS!!

Do you want to hear the school cheer?

Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

By the way, Lib, some Pastor's are man-made. You said "Pastors are made by God". Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I do assume you mean True Pastors not the Jeremiah 23 Pastors. I am just clarifying for the purpose of other readers.

The other thing I want to tell you is if God gave you the gifting of Pastor, you still have it. Don't say you are no longer a Pastor. And I am truly sorry about your medical condition. I do pray the Lord would heal you of that so that you can pursue once again to the fullest, what God has called you to.

Guys, I would really like to get back on topic and some other topics, too. I think we have exhausted the Pastor/Reverend thing. I think a person should read the Word, pray and ask God if he should address brothers in the Lord by religious titles. That's it! No more to say on the subject. Please don't tempt me. Biggrin

sheep wrecked · 07-24-2009, 07:11 PM

(07-24-2009 02:49 AM)Liberated by Faith Wrote: Being a former pastor, I can attest that pastor's do a lot more than preach three times a week. A pastor has to spend many hours preparing for a sermon. Besides that, even though the Word of God says deacons are to do material work for the Church, the majority of the time it is the pastor who does the job because the congregation requires it. He takes time away from his family and job to appease the members of his flock.

Sounds to me like the system is a bit skewed. I don't see this practice in Scripture at all. I am not sure why all the sermons and material work and appeasing the flock. It's really astounding that anyone would put themselves under this kind of bondage. Somehow suffering for the sake of the Gospel seems to have taken on a whole new definition way outside a Biblical perspective Icon_runforhills

Quote:Contrary to the belief of many, all who are Christians should be under the guidance of a pastor in a local fellowship. Jesus is not our pastor. Years after his resurrection and ascension, He gave us pastors, teachers, evangelists, prophets and apostles for a purpose. The pastor would not have been given had Christ wanted us to shun going to a local fellowship. Scripture tells us not to forsake the assembling together... that means we are to gather. It is a directive in the Word of God for the children of God.

The word "pastor" is only used once in the NT [Eph 4:11]. The Greek word for pastor is G4166 ποιμήν poimēn which means "shepherd". In the epistles, the word is only used 3 times - once as pastor and the other two times as "shepherd". And guess who that Shepherd is?

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

According to the NT there is no instruction or description of a pastor other than the definition. Could one say that a whole theology, tradition, and practice have been created and implemented that is not even in the Bible, but based on one text that uses the word "pastor"? Thinking2

Quote:The command for the Elder to feed the flock was not there just to fill up a blank space in the Bible. It was there because God wants the flock to submit to that authority that He has placed in the local assembly.

If you are equating an "elder" with "pastor" it won't work according to the Biblical definitions. And it never does say in the NT that a pastor feeds the flock. Back to the drawing board .......... This is what the Scripture says:

1Pe 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

So what is the reward of an elder who faithfully feeds the flock? And who ever started the whole thing that an elder is a "position" or "entitlement" in the church? The word "elder" simply means someone older or someone who has been appointed or sent. In other words a mature believer as listed in 1 Tim 5. These are *not* pastors

Quote:Your attack of pastor Chris was not showing Christian love for the Brethren at all. Scripture tells us not to rebuke an elder, but rather to entreat him. The rebuke of pastor Chris was contrary to the Word of God.

Chris was not "attacked". He was being shown the truth of God's Word. According to Paul, we are to rebuke an elder if they are out of line.

1Ti 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

What Chris is, I do not know, to be honest. It appears that the title of "pastor" is ambiguous and is not applicable according to the NT as far as i can tell.

Quote:If we are going to call ourselves children of God, we should be obeying His Holy Word... and that includes submitting to that authority in the local church... the pastor.

Actually, the NT does not say to submit to the authority of the local church. That is a real stretch of the text. I believe the NT says we are to submit to each other not lording it over another. From what I read, Jesus is the Head of the church [body of Christ - not the religious system].

The pastor is not the head of the church. Again, the area designated as pastor in the NT is unclear.

Quote:Pastor Chris did not come to this thread to pastor anyone, he knows where God wants him to pastor. He came here for fellowship.

Labeling someone a "pastor" is in direct opposition to what Jesus said. It appears that Jesus was prophetically speaking of the church for its "pastors" fit real well in this scenario:

Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

We would love to have Chris fellowship with us. It's up to him, really.

Quote:You cannot show hatred toward God's pastors on the earth or deny his directive to assemble under the pastors teachings and say you love God. Your actions prove otherwise.

No one here hates pastors. And there is no directive to assemble under a pastor or his teachings. The Word of God is our teacher, not a man. Those who love the truth, love God.

~~Liberated by Faith~~ · (This post was last modified: 07-24-2009 07:28 PM by Liberated by Faith.)

Someone needs to go back to being taught the Word of God by a qualified teacher rather than think that they have no need of them.

Pastors and elders are the same office. A pastor/shepherd is the same as an elder/overseer.

Paul never said to rebuke an elder. He said, and I quote... "Rebuke not an elder, but rather intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren"

Staying out of Church weakens the testimony. It causes one to forget what the Word of God says eventually as is evident.

If labeling someone is pastor is in direct opposition to what Jesus said, why did God give us pastors? Was He against Jesus? I think not!

Ephesians 4:11-13 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Pastors were given by God to edify the body of Christ. If you are not willing to sit under the authority that God has given in this earth, you are not being edified according to the Word of God.

~~pastor_chris~~ · 07-24-2009, 07:21 PM

Sheep,

Pastors/elders/bishops/ are the same things and used synonimously in scripture. Your exegesis above is quite flawed and quite agenda driven. Your view would mean that the church "fell" from grace within 50 years of the death of the apostles. The clerical system we have now is ancient and dates back to the earliest churches. I know you dont want to attend a local assembly and submit to anyone elses teaching but you cant just eliminate the scriptural office of pastor/elder. Honestly your interpretation doesnt even make sense. I mean this in the nicest way possible. Seriously. Please study this. You my sister are wrong about this. Scripture testifies against you, church history testifies against you, tradition testifies against you, and common sense testifies against you.

Please go to my post on the passages that provide a foundation of pastoral compensation, if your view above is correct (and it not) then all of those passages are total nonsense. You obviously have not really studied this out.

Sorry :(