Pastor Or Reverend???

[sheep wrecked]

(07-26-2009 11:50 PM)pastor_chris Wrote:  Sheep,

Why are you so scared to deal with the texts that actually deal with the office of Pastor/bishop/elder? This is really amazing. Sure Christian character is part of the qualifications of leadership, but it tells us nothing about the actual role and model of leadership in the early church. Deal with the verses I have posted or it is obvious you are obfuscating the argument.

If the text tells us nothing about the actual role and model of leadership - per your interpretation, then what do you base your man-inspired "office" on? The NT deals with what a gathering of believers is supposed to be, and how leadership [servant mentality] is supposed to act. It is a not a class oriented hierarchy. It is about people who are mature in the faith gathering with others who believe, and together they study and worship together. It's not difficult to grasp.

The Scriptures that you keep referencing have NOTHING to do with the hierarchy in the church today - because what is taught in the Scriptures is NOT implemented in the organized church. Today's organized church is built on a false premise with a false leadership implemented to exert control over the flock for their own recognition and gain. That is about as simple as I can make it.

Quote:Sheep,

What is an elder? What is a pastor? What is a bishop? What are they to do? Are they to be compensated? None of these issues have even been dealt with. Each has been totally and conveniently avoided. Why? Because the Bible teaches that there a specific offices in the church and gives us the qualifications of those men. It also makes it clear those men are to compensated, respected, submitted to, and shown honor. Will you ever stop beating around the bush? Maybe its because you know you are wrong??? It sure seems that way.

Compensation was not an issue in the NT. Compensation is a "salary". Leaders in the NT church did not have salaries. The believers were admonished to give something, but it was not a regimented schedule, but they were to give from the heart. It does not matter that the NT speaks of elder, bishop, or pastor. We do not know what those offices entailed. If God wanted us to know, He would have specified it in His Word. Instead, Paul explains what should happen when believers gather and it was not people holding down pews and listening to a prepared 3 point sermon while blankly starting at the "pastor" behind his lectern.

You err in thinking that the verses about the elder/bishop were a model for the church to continue past the compilation of the NT. It was a temporary "fix" for a newly developing body of believers. The importance of the completion of the Bible is totally obscured in all the dancing over a few verses which were given to the baby church UNDER the authority of the apostles. Please note: there are no more apostles. They all died in the first century and with them went that authority. Our Authority is the BIBLE and in it are the perfect instructions for believers. They are simple, not complex, have no class distinction and no instructions to organize, build churches, and send young men off to seminary and come back "chosen of God" to "rule the people". You need to get back to the basics.

The BIBLE - yes that's the Book for me!
I STAND ALONE on Word of God!
The BIBLE!

Quote:One more thing, if I had been your pastor I would have equipped you so you would have been much less likely to join a cult group like the HR. I pour myself into the people and I spend hours every week teaching them the truth and doctrines of the faith. I dont focus on 'tithing' we teach on giving but my bigger concern is their souls. if I have to get a second job I will but I care for my people, they need me to teach them all of God's truth.

From your actions here, I would not have lasted 30 seconds in your church. If you are teaching your flock what you have been posting here, it is a given that you are not equipping them for anything. They don't "need" you teach them "all" God's Truth. They have the BIBLE. What a presumptuous arrogant thing to say! It is no wonder you are having difficulty with this forum and your congregation. You cannot even accept that other believers have any truth but you!

Several of us have tried showing you what the Word of God states. You have chosen to ignore everything that was put to you and all the questions asked of you. Come down a few steps, Chris, and join the real world. It's not nearly so stuffy and so control freaky where things are simple and clear, just as God meant them to be. The simplicity that is in Christ.

[heb13-13]

Sheep,

That was most excellently said!

Tomorrow, I will post a practical experience of a church where the leadership is 4 elder men and guess what? They all have jobs, provide for themselves and this is what they believe from the Word.

[pastor_chris]

Sheep,

You actually managed to completley avoid the heart of the matter. That was the most artful act of avoidance and obfuscating I have ever witnessed.

Let me spell it out.

Please define Bishop/Pastor/Elder.
Then please give a detailed and intelligible explanation of the type of compensation, etc was given to the local pastor.

The idea that the Bible was the sole authority in the local church reveals a naivete and ignorance of church history that is honeslty quite alarming. You act like everyone had a Bible 2,000 years ago. You do know this wasnt the case, right? I hope so. The entire Cannon wasn't even circulated in all the churches until after 100 AD. So the questions arises Sheep, what was the authority in the church since the Bible wasnt accesible? The answer is simple and right in the scripture. The church appointed leaders who were discipled in the truth to pass on the faith.

Before the Bible was in every church men like Polycarp (a pastor and disciple of John) and Ignatius (another pastor appointed by Peter) were responsible for passing on sound doctrine. Both of these pastors were paid by the way. Not that the facts matter to you but it is a well established fact that the Roman Bishop received 25% of the church tithes since the first century. Because you detach yourself from church history and have declared yourself to be the ultimate authorority you can literally denounce any doctrine in scripture you dont like. From the Trinity to the deity of Christ you can believe anything you wish. You are the authority, your interpretation reigns supreme. This is like you becoming the pope of your own little faith world.

The church has passed along the great doctrines of the faith and the correct interpretation of the scriptures. Funny thing is you only pick and choose the doctrines you like. Why do you accept the Trinity? Well maybe you dont! Yikes! But if you do then why? It was a doctrine formulated in the 2nd or 3rd century. The point is that your interpretation of scripture and rejection of church history is dangerous.

If you had understood how the early church interpreted scripture you never would have fallen for the HR lie. I mean this respectfully. The interpretation of the early church was the same as that of the Apostles and was handed down in what is known as "the rule of faith". Because you are ignorant of church history you dont know this but you should.

Faith is not born in a vacuum, it is preserved and transmitted in history. Honeslty If I didnt know church history I'd be heavily tempted by the HR movement. But my knowledge of how the church fathers understood th church and the scriptures is a safeguard that has kept my heart from the wicked pitfalls of false doctrine.

In addition sheep the scriptures make absolutely no sense the way you intepret them. You make them useless, meaningless, and completely incoherent by changing the clear meaning of the text regarding the pastoral office. To me the agenda is clear. Take out the scripture that supports an institutional church so we can build an online ministry and not ever have to feel bad about living in sin apart from the body of Christ in fellowship. Yes you heard me right it is a sin to live out of Christian fellowship. You ought to be under the leadership of a prfound man of God. But you have explained away your need for the church. Amazing, amazingly sad.

[heb13-13]

(07-27-2009 04:46 AM)pastor_chris Wrote:  Before the Bible was in every church men like Polycarp (a pastor and disciple of John) and Ignatius (another pastor appointed by Peter) were responsible for passing on sound doctrine. Both of these pastors were paid by the way. Not that the facts matter to you but it is a well established fact that the Roman Bishop received 25% of the church tithes since the first century.

Because you detach yourself from church history and have declared yourself to be the ultimate authorority you can literally denounce any doctrine in scripture you dont like.

From the Trinity to the deity of Christ you can believe anything you wish. You are the authority, your interpretation reigns supreme. This is like you becoming the pope of your own little faith world.

The Scriptures do not teach tithing so maybe this is where the PROFESSIONAL office of Pastor started to deviate. The seeds of deviation started somewhere and became part of "Church History".

Some people put more weight on Church History than God's Word.

The Catholic Church looks down on their adherents and tells them you cannot be your "own authority" (we have authorities for you, we even have a Pope).

Same thing is happening in Protestantism. Funny thing is these people they are scolding are living (as well as they understand) according to God's Word and the Scolders, continue to prove in many ways that they certainly are not. They are using God's Word as a HAMMER.

The reality is you cannot have Professional "Self-Control", you cannot have Professional "Bowels of Mercy", Professional "Kindness" and Professional "Tenderheartedness". There is no Professional "Childlikeness" or Professional "Panting after God".

Professionalism has nothing to do with the essence and heart of the Christian ministry.

The more Professional you are the more spiritual death you leave in your wake. It was you that typed in words that you and your family get "Beat up, every week". Do you remember that?

When you try to apply Scriptures to justify your professional, FULL-TIME, FULLY PAID position as a PROFESSIONAL PASTOR maybe it is better that you stick with "Church History", as you will find more justification for it. Church History is not the Word of God.

You could also use Church History to justify the opposite, I might add. Depends on what history you want to look at.

You have been given so much information, but information alone is not enough, a person needs illumination and revelation and experience. I know you are probably going to say that I am being "sanctimonious" again, nevertheless, you have been taught certain things at Seminary and I am sure you have been taught Truth in many ways, but you should be open to the fact that some things that you were taught do not agree with the Scriptures or the Spirit of Jesus Christ. That is a big pill to swallow, but all of us have had to humble ourselves and re-assess at various times in our lives what we thought was truth. Classroom work is not experience. That is not a dig, just a fact. I myself went to a Bible College but would not recommend going to Bible College or Seminary to anyone. I was taught things that do not really line up with Scripture. I was taught doctrines and commandments of men that uphold the religious system. So, I know, what is taught. I have been an Elder in a church and know the inner workings of what goes on between the Pastor and the Elders and the members and how the gears of the church are kept oiled and running. When tithes got low, here came the tithing messages.

There is no substitute for God's Word and the School of the Spirit. Bible Schools and Seminaries teach you how to keep the system going.

You are taught to officiate funerals, weddings and provide pre-marital and marital counseling, to visit the sick and shut in at hospitals, to be an Administrator of finances and people, to train Elders and teach and preach to the congregation, how to conduct business meetings, prepare budgets, buy and sell property. Today an Institutional Pastor has to know about technology and marketing, growing the church not only in quality but in quantity, be impartial towards all men, especially the biggest tithers, which is very hard to do because tithing is bread and butter of many Pastors and their remuneration is sometimes how they are graded. It should not be. God's approval should be. There is a music program, education program, Sunday school teachers, maintenance people to administrate. A Pastor should build bridges and meet with other Pastors in the area for prayer breakfasts and periodic conferences. He mediates family disputes, church disputes, personal disputes and is called upon to counsel on all manner of levels. The Pastor has to plan and oversee all Church projects, monitor the church ministries, develop training materials and schedule and coordinate events. Then there is the area of Pastoral Care, Prayer, Studying the Word and Preparing Messages. Where is the time for that? And of course you are to have deep peace and be an overcomer in all of these duties and stresses.

I almost forgot. Your family and your children and your extended family. Hmmm, guess there is no time left for them. They are the real victims, Chris. How many books and articles have been written on children of Pastors and how they turn out? How many more will be written. Very, very sad, Chris. You are called to Pastor a church but have no time left for your family. What good is it if we save the world but lose our family?

So, how many hours are in a day, a week, a month???

Is this what it has all come down to??

You want an answer CHRIS?? Yes, you sure do work hard. Very hard. I think a Pastor should at least be paid a million dollars. How's that! There you go, there is your compensation. Now, you have your answer. What do you think of that? You guys are looked up to, to do so much, no wonder people are completely dependent upon you and no wonder most Pastors think they are under appreciated and thankless (but don't admit publicly. You did us a big service by admitting it. Thank you for your honesty).

It is your system and you guys are perpetuating it. God did not call you to this and you cannot convince me otherwise. But there you go. Does that make you happy? We all know how hard you work now and you should at least be paid 1 million dollars. I absolutely know of no other professional vocation that works so hard. But that must be our God. Calling you guys to do all of this.

Sorry, you will never convince me that this is what Jesus had in mind.

Speaking of answering questions: I asked you one time to share the call of God on your life but I have not read that anywhere.

Also, you are changing the argument and assuming that no one here has any fellowship outside of this forum.

Hebrews 10:25 is another very abused scripture by the religious system.
The verse before it is important.

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves does not mean that you must be a member of a church, with a building and a professional staff.

Jesus said, "where two or more are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them".

Even among those who call themselves Christians, everyone knows there are many versions of Christianity, often one version (or Denomination) of Christianity offically denounces OTHER versions of the Faith as heretical.

Are we obliged to overlook these differences?

Are we obliged to Christian Unity and church membership with those who do NOT embrace Christian doctrine as you understand it from the Bible?

JESUS SAID,
Matt.11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17. And saying, We have piped unto you and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.

If you don't want to embrace their concept of "church", they accuse you of lack of love, or pride, or schism. I've heard it all before. They don't seek a relationship with you so they can get to know you. No bridges are built and they don't know anything about your fruit (good or bad). They just know that you don't "attend church" and that automatically makes you a "troublemaker".

If you are a True Believer; a BORN AGAIN Child of God; YOU KNOW there is SOMETHING WRONG with all these doctrines of men.

That something is this: Their religion is the religion of Mystery Babylon, and their "lord" is the god of Babylon.

Well, my Master, Jesus wouldn't dance. I'm not going to dance. And YOU don't have to dance either.

Jeremiah 15:1-2, 19
1 Then said the Lord unto me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet My mind could not be toward this people; cast them out of my sight, and let them go forth.
2 And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then shalt thou tell them, Thus saith the Lord, Such as are for death to death; and such as are for the sword to the sword; and such as are for the famine to the famine; and such as are for captivity, to the captivity.
19 Therefore thus saith the Lord, If thou return, then will I bring thee again, and thou shalt stand before me: and if thou take forth the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth. Let them return unto thee; but return not thou unto them.

The reason you will think this is SANCTIMONIOUS is because you think YOU ARE THE ONE that should be counseling and dispensing truth and whenever the truth hits home, you marginalize the messenger.

[heb13-13]

P.S. I am quite serious about the salary. Not being sarcastic in the least.

You are doing the work of a very hard-working, hands-on CEO. I can appreciate that. I just don't see it in God's Word.

Not even a hint of what I described do I see in God's Word and I am not the only one.

[Vic]

Just to clarify the use of elder, bishop, deacon, pastors, teachers, since some still seem unclear of their meaning in the Scriptures:

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

pastors G4166 ** used once in NT as pastors---other times as Shepherd and referring to Christ 17 times

ποιμήν poimēn
Thayer Definition:
1) a herdsman, especially a shepherd
1a) in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow
2) metaphorically
2a) the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
2a1) of the overseers of the Christian assemblies
2a2) of kings and princes
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain affinity
Citing in TDNT: 6:485, 901

teachers G1320 διδάσκαλος didaskalos
Thayer Definition:
1) a teacher
2) in the NT one who teaches concerning the things of God, and the duties of man
1a) one who is fitted to teach, or thinks himself so
1b) the teachers of the Jewish religion
1c) of those who by their great power as teachers draw crowds around them, i.e. John the Baptist, Jesus
1d) by preeminence used of Jesus by himself, as one who showed men the way of salvation
1e) of the apostles, and of Paul
1f) of those who in the religious assemblies of the Christians, undertook the work of teaching, with the special assistance of the Holy Spirit
1g) of false teachers among Christians
Part of Speech: noun masculine

1Pe 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

elder(s) G4245 πρεσβύτερος presbuteros
Thayer Definition:
1) elder, of age
1a) the elder of two people
1b) advanced in life, an elder, a senior
1b1) forefathers
2) a term of rank or office
2a) among the Jews
2a1) members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)
2a2) of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice
2b) among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably
2c) the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: comparative of presbus (elderly)
Citing in TDNT: 6:651, 931

elder G4850 συμπρεσβύτερος sumpresbuteros
Thayer Definition:
1) a fellow elder
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4862 and G4245
Citing in TDNT: 6:651, 931

oversight G1983 ἐπισκοπέω episkopeō
Thayer Definition:
1) to look upon, inspect, oversee, look after, care for
1a) of the care of the church which rested upon the elders
1b) to look carefully, beware
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1909 and G4648
Citing in TDNT: 2:599, 244

neither as *being lords over* G2634 κατακυριεύω katakurieuō
Thayer Definition:
1) to bring under one’s power, to subject one’s self, to subdue, master
2) to hold in subjection, to be master of, exercise lordship over
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2596 and G2961
Citing in TDNT: 3:1098,

not by *constraint* G317 ἀναγκαστῶς anagkastōs
Thayer Definition:
1) by force or constrain
Part of Speech: adverb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of G315

1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

bishop

the office of a bishop, G1984
1Ti 3:2 A bishop G1985

bishop G1984 ἐπισκοπή episkopē
Thayer Definition:
1) investigation, inspection, visitation
1a) that act by which God looks into and searches out the ways, deeds character, of men, in order to adjudge them their lot accordingly, whether joyous or sad
1b) oversight
1b1) overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder

bishop G1985 **also used as overseer Acts 20:28** ἐπίσκοπος episkopos
Thayer Definition:
1) an overseer
1a) a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done by others are done rightly, any curator, guardian or superintendent
1b) the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a Christian church
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1909 and G4649 (in the sense of G1983)
Citing in TDNT: 2:608, 244

Tit 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
Tit 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Tit 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

steward G3623 οἰκονόμος oikonomos
Thayer Definition:
1) the manager of household or of household affairs
1a) especially a steward, manager, superintendent (whether free-born as was usually the case, a freed-man or a slave) to whom the head of the house or proprietor has intrusted the management of his affairs, the care of receipts and expenditures, and the duty of dealing out the proper portion to every servant and even to the children not yet of age
1b) the manager of a farm or landed estate, an overseer
1c) the superintendent of the city’s finances, the treasurer of a city (or of treasurers or quaestors of kings)
2) metaphorically the apostles and other Christian teachers and bishops and overseers

deacon G1249 διάκονος diakonos
Thayer Definition:
1) one who executes the commands of another, especially of a master, a servant, attendant, minister
1a) the servant of a king
1b) a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use
1c) a waiter, one who serves food and drink
Part of Speech: noun masculine or feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands, compare G1377)
Citing in TDNT: 2:88, 152
1b2) the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1980
Citing in TDNT: 2:606, 244

[Vic]

Regarding church history and giving/tithing and support.

From my article Tithing Is It Scriptural for New Covenant Believers?
Under the Law or Led by the Spirit

http://www.seekgod.ca/tithing.htm

...For many in the Christian, Messianic or Hebraic Roots movements, they are being told to tithe by many who can be shown to be merchant preachers or false leaders, but who claim they are in fact the replacement of the Levite priests. As such, they should receive the ten percent tithe which God had instituted in the Law of Moses for the well being of the priesthood. The same arguments used by these Hebraic Roots leaders are what are being used by many Christians, including pastors and leadership.

The Catholic church in fact, viewed the replacement of the Levite priests with sacred ministers. The New Advent article on Tithes, stated that:

"...In the Christian Church, as those who serve the altar should live by the altar (1 Cor., ix, 13), provision of some kind had necessarily to be made for the sacred ministers. In the beginning this was supplied by the spontaneous offerings of the faithful. In the course of time, however, as the Church expanded and various institutions arose, it became necessary to make laws which would insure the proper and permanent support of the clergy. The payment of tithes was adopted from the Old Law, and early writers speak of it as a divine ordinance and an obligation of conscience. The earliest positive legislation on the subject seems to be contained in the letter of the bishops assembled at Tours in 567 and the cannons of the Council of Macon in 585. In course of time, we find the payment of tithes made obligatory by ecclesiastical enactments in all the countries of christendom. The Church looked on this payment as "of divine law, since tithes were instituted not by man but by the Lord Himself ...In English statute law proper, however, the first mention of tithes is to be found in the Statute of Westminister of 1285. ...There are many exempted from the paying of tithes: spiritual corporations, the owners of uncultivated lands, those who have acquired lawful prescription, or heave obtained a legal renunciation, or received a privilege from the pope. At first, the tithe was payable to the bishop, but later the right passed by common law to parish priests...." http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14741b.htm [bolding/color added]

Please note that according to Catholic sources based on historical documentation, the saints including any leadership were supported solely by freewill giving, not the tithe, from the time of the Apostles and for about 500 years, until the Catholic church reinstituted it. They in fact became the appointed priesthood and in many places that were controlled by the Catholic church it became a state or provincial law that tithing was required. ...end quote

We know that the priesthood was changed to the Order of Melchisedec-that is Christ is our only High Priest. All who believe are called by God, the royal priesthood, making all equal before God, and all fulfilling the new position of the 'priesthood.''

1 Peter 2:7-10 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8. And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

All are taken care of by God, who supplies all our needs. Just as we have been freely given to by Him, we are to give to others as we determine between ourselves and God. Not according to someone else's directive, not out of obligation or as appealing to the Mosaic Law and tithe, which we are not under, but simply as God lays it on hearts.

Those who are called to give to particular people or ministries and not others are not being disobedient if they have sought God's will in the matter. Each are to be content with what God has provided. He knows our needs. All are to be serving God daily--fulltime in all we say and do. Some as witnesses in jobs, some working fulltime for Christ without any renumeration. He knows what each needs. Those who complain and focus on the monetary continually are saying -even if not specifically stating it--that what God has given just isn't good enough. Regardless of circumstances and what each is called to do in service to Christ--He provides everything that is needed.

Those who need to beat into all hearers the need to be applauded, elevated and "listened to and obeyed', have missed the crux of who they serve and the servant attitude, gentleness and meekness that comes from Christ. It is about Him. About your relationship with HIM. Obedience to HIM and obedience to the Word of God.

[pastor_chris]

I am still waiting for a coherent description of a Bishop/pastor/elder. A strongs listing isnt going to cut it. Words only have real meaning in the context of the passage they are in. Stop avoiding the issue. It is quite clear that you know you are wrong otherwise you would give an intelligible description of the role of those who served as Bishops/elders/overseers/pastors etc.

The lack of a willingness to deal with this head on proves that you who reject the ministry are flat wrong, wrong, wrong. Mhy points about church history were totally ignored. This is called DENIAL! Comical! You folks really have no idea what you are talking about. I am not sure whether I should laugh or cry.

Rick,

I am not going to dignify the post about pastoral compensation with a reponse. How silly. You create a straw man and then you set it on fire. That my friend is just wrong. When you want to actually discuss what it really means to be a minister let me know. Maybe we can talk.

[heb13-13]

(07-27-2009 02:25 PM)pastor_chris Wrote:  I am still waiting for a coherent description of a Bishop/pastor/elder. A strongs listing isnt going to cut it. Words only have real meaning in the context of the passage they are in. Stop avoiding the issue. It is quite clear that you know you are wrong otherwise you would give an intelligible description of the role of those who served as Bishops/elders/overseers/pastors etc.

The lack of a willingness to deal with this head on proves that you who reject the ministry are flat wrong, wrong, wrong. Mhy points about church history were totally ignored. This is called DENIAL! Comical! You folks really have no idea what you are talking about. I am not sure whether I should laugh or cry.

Rick,

I am not going to dignify the post about pastoral compensation with a reponse. How silly. You create a straw man and then you set it on fire. That my friend is just wrong. When you want to actually discuss what it really means to be a minister let me know. Maybe we can talk.

Strawman? Hmmm. Ok, giving you the benefit of the doubt, how about 200.000.00 dollars, then. That is not very much. That would be equivalent to 43,000.00 in 1970, per inflation.

I outlined what I Denominational Pastor does, more or less and now, here is a revised salary. Let's talk.

[pastor_chris]

I don't know a single pastor that even wants to make that kind of money. Our hearts are right. I'd rather take 25% of that and use the other $150,00o to minister to others. Most pastors are NOT greedy brother Rick. We have a heart for the lost and we want to see Christ touch peoples lives. We are not in the ministry to get rich. But we do want healthcare for our kids, food for our families, and clothing etc. In the modern world with a family of seven (which is what I have). Making anything less than 50k or 60k is tough. This is why most families have two working parents, just so they can bring in 50-60k and put food on the table and pay the bills.