Pastor Or Reverend???

[Vic]

(07-27-2009 02:25 PM)pastor_chris Wrote:  I am still waiting for a coherent description of a Bishop/pastor/elder. A strongs listing isnt going to cut it. Words only have real meaning in the context of the passage they are in. Stop avoiding the issue. It is quite clear that you know you are wrong otherwise you would give an intelligible description of the role of those who served as Bishops/elders/overseers/pastors etc.

The lack of a willingness to deal with this head on proves that you who reject the ministry are flat wrong, wrong, wrong. Mhy points about church history were totally ignored. This is called DENIAL! Comical! You folks really have no idea what you are talking about. I am not sure whether I should laugh or cry.

Rick,

I am not going to dignify the post about pastoral compensation with a reponse. How silly. You create a straw man and then you set it on fire. That my friend is just wrong. When you want to actually discuss what it really means to be a minister let me know. Maybe we can talk.

Quote:A strongs listing isnt going to cut it. Words only have real meaning in the context of the passage they are in.

That was Thayer's if you had bothered to read it Chris. And verses were provided showing context. And the church history information was also addressed.

Absolutley no one has avoided the issues Chris. Pastor and reverend were defined at the beginning of this thread. Everyone who has contributed has dialogued and answered questions put to them. You do not. You are contentious and attempting to be controlling. You have taken off topic--three threads because you can't get it through your head that we understand what the scriptures say about the ones being quoted. No one has denied them. No one has avoided using them.

You however have totally ignored posts and questions directed to you--in this thread, the compensation thread and the tithing thread. Get over yourself, and quit thinking you are or have to be in control or right. Answer the questions and observations by other posters with some semblence of respect and self control and without insulting, assaulting, name calling, falsely accusing or playing the victim.

You want to discuss something here---answer what has been give to YOU. Stop ignoring all the posts and questions to YOU. Quit demanding things from others you aren't willing to give to them. And start behaving like someone who knows Jesus Christ. You are a Guest here...nothing more and nothing less.

It's up to you Chris, what happens next.

[pastor_chris]

Vic,

My sweet sister please deal with my question. A lexicon is not equivalent to biblical interpretation and exegesis. It is a tool to accomplish correct interpretation not the meaning itself. You know this right? What I am asking for is a description of how a Bishop/pastor/elder/overseer would function in the church during the first century. This is not "controlling" and is perfectly reasonable. If you claim that the modern day clerical structure is unbiblical then you have to explain why Paul appointed people to serve in these positions in the churches, what they did, and which ones were to be compensated. That is what the discussion is about. If you cant prove your point then just conceed. Banning me Vic would just be admitting that I am right and you cant refute me.

[Vic]

(07-27-2009 03:07 PM)pastor_chris Wrote:  Vic,

My sweet sister please deal with my question. A lexicon is not equivalent to biblical interpretation and exegesis. It is a tool to accomplish correct interpretation not the meaning itself. You know this right? What I am asking for is a description of how a Bishop/pastor/elder/overseer would function in the church during the first century. This is not "controlling" and is perfectly reasonable. If you claim that the modern day clerical structure is unbiblical then you have to explain why Paul appointed people to serve in these positions in the churches, what they did, and which ones were to be compensated. That is what the discussion is about. If you cant prove your point then just conceed. Banning me Vic would just be admitting that I am right and you cant refute me.

You won't be banned unless you receive another warning being that you are at 100%. The warnings are for bad behavior and inappropriate comments or false accusations or not abiding the forum rules. Then it will be by autoban...not me. You need to stop and address what has been said to you. Don't call me sweet sister Chris. Your last accusations towards me was that I was a liar, I was out to get you etc. etc. No one is going to answer your questions until such time as it is seen you have addressed the many posts and questions to You. This topic is closed to you now Chris. Do you understand that. No one is conceeding or not proving anything. It's been done. YOU just can't receive anything that has been said.

You are about one post away from being restricted from posting to the compensation and tithing threads. After that--if it comes to that, you will be put on full moderation with restricted access, depending on your response here. What that will mean is that you will have access to the board---you will be able to read everything but we will provide your own special place to post---just to the admins, if and until such time you can join in with the regular members and behave with respect for others.

[Emjesown]

PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE

ADMINS
YOU ALL OWN THAT VIRTUE

[pastor_chris]

Uh.....all I am asking for is an answer to my question. You seem to be pretty upset about that. Obviously you cant answer my question. Also Vic did you Thayer wasn't even a believer? If you are leary of church history then you ought to be highly suspicious of a deist like Thayer.

Oh by the way Vic I dont think you are a liar, I never said that. I called you dishonest, and that does not mean someone is a liar. Sometimes people are unintentionally dishonest, or at least not completely conscious of their lack of candor. So my first warning was pretty much unfair. It is clear that open dialogue is not wanted here. The only dialogue that is accpeted is that which conforms to your narrow view of the world and the scriptures. This is more than unfortunate.

God bless sweet sister!

[heb13-13]

(07-27-2009 02:42 PM)pastor_chris Wrote:  I don't know a single pastor that even wants to make that kind of money. Our hearts are right. I'd rather take 25% of that and use the other $150,00o to minister to others. Most pastors are NOT greedy brother Rick. We have a heart for the lost and we want to see Christ touch peoples lives. We are not in the ministry to get rich. But we do want healthcare for our kids, food for our families, and clothing etc. In the modern world with a family of seven (which is what I have). Making anything less than 50k or 60k is tough. This is why most families have two working parents, just so they can bring in 50-60k and put food on the table and pay the bills.

Brother Chris,

Ok, looks like you are starting to work with us. Your next post says about 250,000.00. I was going to revise mine to 200,000.00. That is only 43,000.00 in 1970 dollars due to inflation, so 250,000.00 is good.

I thought I was being generous, taking into consideration all the duties of a minister. I told you that I was not being sarcastic. It was not a Strawman, but that's ok, let's move on.

I have given you two figures now and the duties of a Modern Day Denominational Pastor, more or less. And you have just come back with your first figure of 250,000.00. I know most men have "good" hearts and a heart for the lost but the religious system, Chris, has a way of corrupting their hearts and killing any life of Christ inside them that they started with. I just want you to be careful about this. There are too many traps waiting for you to fall into.

Now that we are past the salary thingy, let's talk. You have told us what your idea of compensation is and for all that work, I think that is fair. Now tell us what a modern day minister's duties are in case my list is lacking. I already know it is very hard work and takes many, many hours per week. But tell us from your perspective.

And I have many more serious questions, if you don't mind. We can all see how the modern day Pastor seems to be doing just about everything and all the Body has to do is show up, sit down, listen, pay their tithe, give honor to the leadership for doing all the tasks that are needed to be done and generally, stay away from conflict and try to make the Pastor's life a joy.

Fair enough. The congregation is paying for a certain service and it is being performed, not to mentioned all the other things in my previous list. And, yes, I did not forget, that it is not just admin type tasks but actually ministering to real people which, I am sure (not sarcastic) is why you got into the "ministry". I think I am beginning to see you a little better now, Chris and I believe your motives are pure, but of course, only God knows.

Can you answer these questions? A lot of people here don't know exactly how church leadership works and this would be enlightening, I am sure to all of us. You see, we are trying to figure out how to shoehorn today's Pastor into the "Pastor" of the Scriptures and frankly, we just need some help. These questions do not reflect on YOU at all. Just looking for your honest answers.

Is the compensation relative? Meaning, whether you are a Pastor in a lower class neighborhood, middle class neighborhood or upper class neighborhood? Since the duties are the same, is the compensation the same?

What are the parameters for figuring out what a Pastor should be paid?
Is it results or just willingness to serve or both? Do number and level of degrees play a part in the determination of salary? Is there an entry level salary and what would be a top tier salary?

What would the results be that your salary is measured by? Who does the "measuring". What are the parameters for measurement? Church growth in quantity, quality, both or what?

By the way, how do you measure quality of Church growth?

Since you are being paid, do you get an annual review by the people that pay your salary?

If God calls you, for what reason(s) can the church fire you?

Do you serve at the pleasure of men or God? If God, then they cannot boot you, right?

If they want to fire you and you did nothing wrong, are they in sin?

What should the annual "cost of living" raise be?

If the church has a down year (economic downturn) and the tithes are low, where do you make the cuts.

How much of the money goes back into the Saints lives? Give me a percentage of total take on a Sunday. Or do you deal with the budget at all?
- Do you actively look to see whose lives you can improve with say an upgrade to a better apartment in a better part of town? Do you actively inquire who the poor people in your church are that need home repairs or medical checkups or anything else but cannot afford them? Are you the kind of Shepherd that know the condition of ALL of your Sheep?

- Do you or someone else actively look to see who you can help get a better job by putting the money that is tithed to work in their lives for say a trade school?

- When you are invited over to certain people's houses in the church for a barbecue or lunch or dinner, do you ever see the poorest of your congregation at these invites?

- Do you notice whether the richest in the congregation seem to pay you a lot of attention and do you feel like they want more attention from you than others want? Do they seem to you like they are entitled to more attention from you?

- In what kinds of ways are you or someone else on staff sowing the Saints money back into their lives or is it all going for staff salary and the building, parking lot and programs?

- How many people are in your congregation and what is the weekly total tithe?

- Do you know anything about church finances or is that area relegated to other men to keep you from conflict of interest. Ideally, you should know nothing about the money that comes in and where it goes, who gives or who doesn't.

These are all very serious questions that I know a lot of people would like to know the answers to. You have been taught how to run a church and are in the best position to tell us. Writing on the Internet may be misleading but let me assure you there is no sarcasm at all in this post. I hope we can learn something from each other.

Thanks in advance,

P.S. Does anyone else have any questions?

Rick

[pastor_chris]

Ok Rick Fair enough:

Is the compensation relative? Meaning, whether you are a Pastor in a lower class neighborhood, middle class neighborhood or upper class neighborhood? Since the duties are the same, is the compensation the same?

The answer is yes it is relative to the economic realities of your area. But in some denominations it is the same for everyone.

What are the parameters for figuring out what a Pastor should be paid?
Is it results or just willingness to serve or both? Do number and level of degrees play a part in the determination of salary? Is there an entry level salary and what would be a top tier salary?

Education, experience and the means of the congregation are the main factors. I have never met anyone that makes more than 100K and that would be a "megachurch pastor" someone like Rick Warren.

What would the results be that your salary is measured by? Who does the "measuring". What are the parameters for measurement? Church growth in quantity, quality, both or what?

A committee takes all factors into considerations and the church body makes the decision based upon reccomendations. The pastor usually has little input.

By the way, how do you measure quality of Church growth?

In some churches this is a real problem and there is no standard. In my church we are developing a standard based upon scripture not necessarily on numbers. Good question.

Since you are being paid, do you get an annual review by the people that pay your salary?

No not really. Not unless I ask for it. In addition it would be a waste of my time because my church can barley afford my salary as it it.

If God calls you, for what reason(s) can the church fire you?

Sexual immorality, ethical misconduct, or if I just make everyone mad then they could remove me But usually it would be some sort of moral failure.

Do you serve at the pleasure of men or God? If God, then they cannot boot you, right?

I serve at God's pleasure but being in a congregational church they can indeed fire me. That doesnt mean my call is necessarily revoked it just would mean that body didnt want my call exercised in their local church.

If they want to fire you and you did nothing wrong, are they in sin?

Yes

What should the annual "cost of living" raise be?

it is different everywhere. If the church cannot afford a salary or an increase then it should be adjusted to what is fair and reasonable for both parties.

If the church has a down year (economic downturn) and the tithes are low, where do you make the cuts.

Everywhere we can, if that means the ministers salary is on the block so be it. His salary is not more important than the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Every minister I know is willing to work bivocationally if need be. We work for Jesus not to get rich.

How much of the money goes back into the Saints lives? Give me a percentage of total take on a Sunday. Or do you deal with the budget at all?

I am very involved in the budget and every church is different. In some churches 90% goes to the saints and the community in others it is only 50%. It just depends on the financial ability of the church. In addition every bit of a pastors salary is an investment in the body because he is devoting himself to prayer and teaching the saints, equipping them for every good work according to Ephesians 4

- Do you actively look to see whose lives you can improve with say an upgrade to a better apartment in a better part of town? Do you actively inquire who the poor people in your church are that need home repairs or medical checkups or anything else but cannot afford them? Are you the kind of Shepherd that know the condition of ALL of your Sheep?

This question is good but may be a little unfair. First we dont ever look to upgrade anyone living arrangements. You need to understand that most of our community is mobile homes, most are poor and there is little ability to move "upward" economically. I live in a parsonage that is about 1200 square feet and I have five kids. So no one is really living in luxury here. People that need food, gas, help are often provided for through the benevolence ministry of the church. Sometimes I fund that ministry out of my own pocket. This is what a good shepherd does when he can. I do my best.Most out here have state health care if they are poor so thats not a problem. And yes I know the condition of my flock as best I can.

- Do you or someone else actively look to see who you can help get a better job by putting the money that is tithed to work in their lives for say a trade school?

This is impossible. We can hardly pay our bills.

- When you are invited over to certain people's houses in the church for a barbecue or lunch or dinner, do you ever see the poorest of your congregation at these invites?

I am rarely invited to dinner at anyones house but when I have been the answer is yes.

- Do you notice whether the richest in the congregation seem to pay you a lot of attention and do you feel like they want more attention from you than others want? Do they seem to you like they are entitled to more attention from you?

the answer is no, in fact our biggest giver is the most humble non suuming man I have ever met, a real blessing

- In what kinds of ways are you or someone else on staff sowing the Saints money back into their lives or is it all going for staff salary and the building, parking lot and programs?

Thats a loaded question. And unfair. I wont even answer it. You assume that the things above are not things that benefit the saints so thet questions is based upon a faulty premise. You did well until here.

- How many people are in your congregation and what is the weekly total tithe?

50-60 people and I cant share the tithe number with you, sorry.

- Do you know anything about church finances or is that area relegated to other men to keep you from conflict of interest. Ideally, you should know nothing about the money that comes in and where it goes, who gives or who doesn't.

I know little about where the money comes from, but some men in our church have big mouths and have told me things I did not care to know. They have been rebuked but its too late. It doesnt matter to me though. Our decisions are not based upon who the givers are and what they want. That is why we just lost three tithers because I am not going to try and appease them when they are in the wrong. We will follow God, not the dollar. If I have to get a second job so be it.

---

Oh by the way Most pastors make between 20K and 50k a year if they are full time. But the median is probably around 35-38K

No one is getting rich in the ministry

[Rose of Shushan]

Great questions rick!
my question is what would be a typical day in your life Chris? Can you give us a rundown of what you do each day that makes you more worthy of a salary or compensation from each member of your congregation than for example another member of the body.

[pastor_chris]

Rose,

No disrespect intended but I dont really like how the question was phrased. It sounds slanted.

[Rose of Shushan]

Really? slanted? I had been wanting to ask that for a few days now but had forgotten. You see those of us with a ministry also have expenses but I wonder why the pastor demands a salary or payment from every congregant.Yet I or Vic or Sheep dont demand that the congregants pay us a share of their hard earned money so we can serve the Lord in the way we are called.
If you have read my posts you will see that I believe that the things a pastor/priest/minister does (though Im not sure what they do exactly which is why I asked) should be shared out through the whole body of Christ.
So Chris seeing as you say you are a real live pastor that is why I am asking you.