Pastor Or Reverend???

[Rose of Shushan]

Great discussion .

I tend to think that ordaining or setting apart people to be ministers ,reverends or whatever title they want to call themselves also makes some of believers lazy and complacent. They then tend to lay back and think that as long as they attend church once a week its ok and they need do nothing else. Since they reason its the "pastor's/reverend's/priest's to do other important stuff like plan outreaches,decide who is needy enough to get help from church funds,visit the sick,dying, preach the gospel.......etc etc!

For one it puts way too much stress on the one person and even worse it discourages the believers from truly using all their talents.
I come from a catholic background and it was phenomenal the amount of duties a priest has to take on himself. Things which the "laity" were meant to have been doing also not just the priest. If all the congregation would have been doing even a twentieth of what these poor men do, it would have been such a much better witness. But sadly the congregation thinks that to be a good christian all that is needed is to attend Mass or services once a week. In other denominations I see much of the same. The emphasis is on services conducted by some type of minister/reverend/etc and having somehwere to worship.
I think they are neglecting all the other such important things that go with being a believer..and instead concentrating on worshipping and meeting together to the exclusion of anything else. The way I see it is that we will have all the time to meet together and worship God together for eternity but here we have to save souls and help each other through the tribulation we all undergo in our lives.
There will be time to worship in heaven but the souls we dont help here will be lost forever.

[heb13-13]

Today's religious structure, without trying to, has created another "layer" between man and God.

Today's emphasis is not gathering unto the Headship of Christ, but rather gathering unto MEN/A Man.

Luther broke away from the Vatican spiritually, regarding "the just shall live by faith", but unfortunately, Protestantism retained much of the physical structures introduced by Rome (Church buildings, Clergy, Pews, Lectern, etc.,)

Jesus is more the "Guest of Honor" rather than the Host in a meeting of Believers. Most times He is not even the guest of honor as just lip service is given.

The spontaneity of the Spirit is gone, because they have a program to stick to. The Pastor's program.

Most Church people are supporting the Pastor's vision and they have no vision, themselves, from God.

God does not want us to spend our lives supporting someone else's vision, He wants to give us HIS VISION.

This seems harsh, but this is reality. This is what we have created by the arm of the flesh.

We have created a system of tithing, because there is a budget that has to be met, because there are costs that have to be paid for. There is a building, lights, parking lot, salaries, etc.

Very, very few live by faith, so they have created the system of tithing in order to meet the monthly budgets. The reason that the Church is interested in numbers (nickels, noses and numbers) is because the more people they get paying 10%, the more their income increases and they can subsequently increase their budget and "do more things for God."

The Church cannot be healthy if it is only a series of meetings, where the Holy Spirit does not have free reign.

The Church started off as a fellowship where Christians were family, then it became an Institution where Christians were Parishioners and today it is an Enterprise where Christians are the laborers and the Pastor and Elders are the CEO and Board Members.

Very, very sad, when you take into account that most Believers in the religious system are living lives of quiet desperation, always trying to "perform" for the Father and knowing nothing of a love relationship with God the Father thru Jesus Christ.

This has been said before: The Church is organic not an organization. God's Church is a family not a business.

Those of you that are married and have children. Do you run your family like a business? I doubt it. There is probably a lot of spontaneity and your children are probably allowed to express themselves freely. Of course, all things must be done decently and in order (translation: Politeness and manners, considering others).

I knew a "Pastor" once that had been in the ministry for 30 years. He confessed in the pulpit one day to the entire congregation that when he first started in the ministry, he had a passion to see souls saved and then see them grow up in Christ. He said, "Today, I have become an Administrator of an organization and I don't even have any time for my wife and family."

We have created a monster. It's tentacles destroy people, the "clergy" and the "laity" (although this separation should not exist. You know what I am talking about). It is our own set of Christian laws. Any kind of law will always be merciless and drain you of your strength by putting you under condemnation because you are just never really doing enough or doing "it" right.

Worst of all, Jesus would not be welcome in today's religious system. It is foreign to Him. Christian "leaders" would not admit this, but God's own Word repudiates most of their practices as the doctrines of men nullify the Word of God. Jesus would be told to sit in the pew, be quiet and don't make waves. If He said anything at all to threaten the leader's livelihood, there would be a price to pay.

Again, they would push Him OUTSIDE the CAMP (their economic, spiritual, world), again.


Psa 127:1 Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

[pastor_chris]

hebrew 13 thanks! Appreciate the wonderfully encouraging comments! Back at ya bud! A little love and tact would be nice eh?I am getting tired of the anti-clerical attitude I keep finding online. Geez! Give us pastors a break. Could ya? People beat us up all week at church!

[heb13-13]

(07-23-2009 01:42 AM)pastor_chris Wrote:  hebrew 13 thanks! Appreciate the wonderfully encouraging comments! Back at ya bud! A little love and tact would be nice eh?I am getting tired of the anti-clerical attitude I keep finding online. Geez! Give us pastors a break. Could ya? People beat us up all week at church!

Chris,

Please take note of what you said. "People beat us up all week at church".

I don't know you so of course what I have said is not personal but you are taking it personally. You are taking too much pride in being a "Pastor".

The fact is that this is a monster and it absolutely does "beat you up all week" by your own admission.

A Pastor in the religious system is a most unenviable position, because you and your family are the recipient of "prayers against you", gossip, backbiting, slander, etc. "Well heeled" members will want to control you because they are the biggest tithers and will want you to institute this program or that program. You in return will be tempted to not want to "ruffle" their feathers. Others will say they are not getting enough attention from you. And the more people put you up on a pedestal the more it will affect you adversely.

Chris, you need to carefully consider and pray if you should continue to allow yourself and your family to be in a situation where you receive "attacks" from people "each week" (the Body of Christ?).

Sometimes the suffering we subject ourselves to is not God's doing. We can't blame everything on God.

I guess you want me to feel sorry for you as indicated in your response. I do and I don't. It was after all your choice, however you may not have known what you were getting yourself into.

What I would like you to do, is think about your family, your wife and kids if you have any. Satan inhabits the attacks and prayers against you from these people (every week) and you and your family will suffer.

It is not Biblical for one man to be meeting the spiritual needs or tending to the spiritual needs of an entire congregation. Well, it is Biblical but that one man is Jesus Christ. You can't make them happy, only the Lord can. These institutions are designed in such a way that they all look to you to meet their needs and if they perceive you are not doing a good job, well, obviously you are experiencing their displeasure "each week".

If you are being attacked each week, the best thing for you to do is to get out of there, get a full-time job and find some Christians that love God with their whole heart and meet with them as a brother in the Lord. You can still minister and use the gifts that God has given you and build up the Body. The environment you chose is destined to failure by design.

You can delude yourself into thinking that God has called you to be a martyr from attacks by His Body. Many have stayed in this environment for many reasons. For many, it is economical security for others it is because they truly believe that weekly attacks by the Body are part of the package and they just bear with it. If you stay, please take every precaution to shield your family. I don't know how you can do this completely. A root of bitterness brings much pain and loss. Every week you are fighting against feelings of resentment, bitterness and are tempted to put up walls towards certain members of the Body just to protect yourself.

As far as being "anti-clerical"?

Well, let me put it this way, there are certain Catholic hierarchy that will say that so and so hates Catholics because he preaches against the Catholic church. But nothing could be further from the truth. They are always shifting the focus. What is despised is the False Catholic Doctrine.

If you are offended by anti-clerical attitudes that you find online, then perhaps you should look first into your own heart and ask yourself why you are offended. What is it in you that rises up when you hear an anti-clerical remark? You may be surprised at what you find.

I don't hate any man so please don't "shift the focus" and create a syllogism.

Rick hates clerics,
I am a cleric.
Therefore Rick hates me.

I do however, see dangers, many dangers in the clergy/laity structure. I have been around for awhile and life is getting shorter so forgive me for being blunt and not being more "eloquent of speech".

If you are being attacked each week you have some very serious soul searching to do and I am the least of your worries. I am actually giving you some positive steps to think and pray about.

My heart does go out to well meaning, sincere Pastors who have a heart to minister and build up the Body. I just know that many of them have no idea what they have gotten themselves into.

May God bless you and your family as you seek His will for all of you. And if you leave, please don't consider that a failure because you probably will succeed in saving your family. No one usually wins in the Religious System. They certainly made sure that Jesus did not. They pushed Him outside their little camp and killed him. Sound familiar?

The Religious System is still alive and active today in people's hearts.

I could write more but will stop here. The Holy Spirit is sufficient.

[pastor_chris]

Do you have any idea how santimonious you sound! Rick it sounds like you have it "all" figured out and stand as the judge of "christianity" as the wise sage of biblical spirituality!

The pastorate is tough, and I am not complaining about that, I knew what came with my call, which I thoroughly love. SO not quitting! Sorry! But I am tired of people I encounter who like firing bombs at ministers. Yeah Rick that is real edifying. Your comments make it clear you have an anti-clerical bias. Don't try and pretend otherwise. The "system" is based upon the scripture, so thats not the problem. The problem is the sinners, and since our churches are filled with them ministry will always be messy. But you ought to respect those that are in the field instead of criticizing from the sidelines.

[Vic]

(07-23-2009 01:19 PM)pastor_chris Wrote:  Do you have any idea how santimonious you sound! Rick it sounds like you have it "all" figured out and stand as the judge of "christianity" as the wise sage of biblical spirituality!

The pastorate is tough, and I am not complaining about that, I knew what came with my call, which I thoroughly love. SO not quitting! Sorry! But I am tired of people I encounter who like firing bombs at ministers. Yeah Rick that is real edifying. Your comments make it clear you have an anti-clerical bias. Don't try and pretend otherwise. The "system" is based upon the scripture, so thats not the problem. The problem is the sinners, and since our churches are filled with them ministry will always be messy. But you ought to respect those that are in the field instead of criticizing from the sidelines.

Chris your remarks to Rick are out of line.

You seem to be firing an awful lot of stuff at those who aren't pastors. You want a biblical evaluation:

2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

The "pastorate" as you call it, is no different than any other part of the body of Christ.

Romans 12:2-5 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5. So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Each individual is to be equipped with the full armour of God, in the same way, because the battle is for all who belong to Christ. Every single person is a soldier of Christ. He is the Shepherd and One we are to follow. The battle is His, but He uses each as He sees fit. Each are called to do various tasks to edify the church--aka Body of Christ and as He wills, bring others to Christ.

>>>But you ought to respect those that are in the field instead of criticizing from the sidelines. >>>

Every believer that is living for Christ is supposed to be "in the field" Chris. You are not superior or more of a soldier or more important in the Body, or dealing with harder things.

1 Corinthians 10:12-13 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13. There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1 Peter 1:3-9 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4. To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8. Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9. Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 Peter 4:10-16 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 12. Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13. But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 14. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. 15. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. 16. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

Your job as a teacher is to equip the saints, of those who allow you to teach them, so they can go and do the ministry that God calls each person to, who belongs to Him. So that those who you have contact with do not remain babes, but rather learn to exercise discernment by use of the Word of God. As mature Christians who have learned to wield the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God, and always pointing others to Christ---and not pointing to themselves. It's about Christ.

You apparently forgot some Scriptural passages in your zeal to be recognised as a pastor, instead as simply someone who loves Jesus Christ and the brethren. Because, you would know we are to try the spirits and prove all things, according to the Scriptures.

Concerning your various comments:

1 Timothy 6: 10. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 12. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Colossians 3:12-17 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 13. Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. 14. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. 15. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. 16. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

Philippians 2:1-5 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, 2. Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

[heb13-13]

(07-23-2009 01:19 PM)pastor_chris Wrote:  Do you have any idea how santimonious you sound! Rick it sounds like you have it "all" figured out and stand as the judge of "christianity" as the wise sage of biblical spirituality!

The pastorate is tough, and I am not complaining about that, I knew what came with my call, which I thoroughly love. SO not quitting! Sorry! But I am tired of people I encounter who like firing bombs at ministers. Yeah Rick that is real edifying. Your comments make it clear you have an anti-clerical bias. Don't try and pretend otherwise. The "system" is based upon the scripture, so thats not the problem. The problem is the sinners, and since our churches are filled with them ministry will always be messy. But you ought to respect those that are in the field instead of criticizing from the sidelines.

Chris,

First and foremost. We are ALL in the FIELD as you put it and we all know what comes with OUR CALL, too. You keep making distinctions for some reason between yourself and us. Do you see us as LAITY?

I pastor my family (5 people) and people at work and people that call me up and people that I write. I encourage people that are down and despairing and lost all hope and people that are going into error. I also witness most everyday because I can't stop talking about the Lord and I love people. I keep my eyes open to look for every opportunity that the Lord is presenting to me to minister to someone. I have to live my life above reproach in the Marketplace, shoulder to shoulder with all kinds of people. I keep myself built up in the Lord so I don't go around whining and become useless to HIM.

So, if I am not in the "FIELD", then please, tell me where I am. And that goes for the rest of us non-clerical types. Non-Clerical was your word, not mine.

Now, Brother, (can I call you that), you came back loaded for Bear!



Chris, it's all just friendly advice, yours to take or not.

I would also like to let you know that for the "rest of us", LIFE is TOUGH and it DEFINITELY is NOT FAIR. Welcome to planet earth. We still have to walk in the Spirit and make no provision for the flesh.

I am really sorry about your situation and that you cannot find any thankfulness in it. All you seem to see is what everyone else has and the "GOOD" they are withholding from you.

You seem hung up on things: So and so has this or that and I don't. (I saw your response on Tithing.) You have some deep resentments and bitterness towards your brothers and sisters in Christ in your congregation or sinners as you call them.

I mean, if they are truly sinners (and not Christians) then your behaviour or feelings toward them will push them away from Christ and that is the opposite of what you want, I hope.

Do you think you are in a class of people that are afforded special recognition and privileges by God (maybe by the world)? Just the opposite I might suggest and that goes for everyone of us: anyone that follows Christ!

Why in the world would you tell me that the Pastorate is tough, I just told you in another post that the religious system is a monster. You are not telling me anything I don't know. But the main thing I want to ask you is; Do you think you are in a tougher position in life than anyone else? You don't have any idea what has transpired in anyone's life in this forum except what they share.

I 've got to tell you my friend and you can call me any name you want, it is true what I said, the "Pastorate" is eating you alive and if it affects you in a negative way, it is probably taking a toll on your loved ones (THROUGH YOU). Actually, I would not even blame it on the "Pastorate". The Pastorate is just the FURNACE that has exposed what is in your heart towards those in your church and what they own and what you own or DON'T OWN and just your overall situation.

Have you ever tried relating to a brother in Christ, AS a brother instead of as LAITY?

You seem to have a real short fuse Chris, and here we are only "posting", not even talking face to face. Can you at least look into your own heart and ask God why you are reacting this way?

I don't think Paul or Peter went around saying, "I'm an Apostle and this life is hard and you are not being very fair to me and if you don't know it yet, I deserve more respect than what you are showing me, and how about sharing more of your wealth with me? I have a SPECIAL call of God on my life and have to help you grow in Christ, somehow?"

My vantage point is very limited, I know, but it seems to me that you don't seem very teachable. I hope I am wrong. Could it be that being in the Clergy you don't have ears to hear what the Lord might be saying to you through a LAY Person?

And once again you bring up the anti_cleric bias as if I am ant-Chris. And once again, I am not Anti-Chris.

I am in my own field, Chris, and I deal with many, many people and I don't command anyone to respect me and I don't stand above them and abuse them.

The Ladies in this forum are very nice and conciliatory (well, they can be tough sometimes ) I am not as genteel, I guess you could say, especially with men that are whining. And you sir, are whining. I'm sorry, I can't relate to you. I'm not sure what kind of upbringing you had but the rod of correction seems to have gotten lost. I'd give you one if I could and then I would tell you the following:

Jas 5:10 Take, my brethren (Chris), the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

1Co 16:13 Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Php 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.

I wish you well, I really do.

I certainly hope you are the second man in the following picture. You have already determined that I am the first man.

God knows and sees everything, Chris.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

I hope you stay in the Forum, I'm not going anywhere, but let's be BROTHERS in the LORD, Chris.

One last thing, the SYSTEM *IS* not based on Scripture and YES, it is a big part of the problem, and QUIT BLAMING the SINNERS! You are a classic blame-shifter for all your problems and your wife is probably getting real tired of hearing about it

Begin taking responsibility of being a follower of Jesus and a Man of GOD and you will see all your "problems" melt away. Instead of seeing problems you will see OPPORTUNITIES. You can stay a Pastor, I don't care, but change your attitude and your life will be much better (and those around you will be happier). And smile more. Stop shaking people's hands and give them big hugs and let everyone around you know how much God really does love them. God bless your Wife.

[pastor_chris]

Rick,

Honestly If I keep responding to you we are going to just lock horns. So I am going to back off of this thread. I have no desire to argue with a pastor-hater. You speak in a condescending manner as one who "knows" what my problems are and how I can "correct" them. It is obvious you were wounded or offended by a pastor somewhere at sometime. Your bias against Christian ministers is out there for the world to see. Hate to break it to you but while the Minister is to work with the sheep in the field His ministry is indeed different and was intended to be. But don't let the Bible get in the way of your opinion.

Church members are told in the scriptures to "Obey" their leaders. They are told to give their pastor "double honor" and they are told to make sure that they don't make His work a burden. The problem with the modern church is a lack of respect for the position of pastor and his hard work. People, like you who think that each man is his own little pope and that pastors are pompous "dictators" are the ones who cause church splits and massive conflict in churches. The average pastor loves his flock, feeds them faithfully, and sacrifices for them and for their well being. Arrogant, know it all types that ignore the biblical authority of the Elder reject any authority and in affect even cast off God's sovereignty.

Peter, Paul and all of the apostles received respect and were honored by the congregation. The early church would never have dreamed of challenging their God given leaders and their authority. It is ungodly and out right rebellion to attack and oppose God's annointed (unless that man has surrendered his moral authority to lead). Your view of the church would mean that every church congregation should go without a pastor and that there should be no elder/leader in any church. This would lead to chaos and discord.You are oblivious to the teaching of scripture and to the clear structure set up in the New Testament. You cannot reinevnt the church. But I am sure you'll try.

You can call me brother if you ever get off your high, sanctimonious horse in humility and apologize for judging me and others like me. Good day.

[Rose of Shushan]

Wow chris it is so sad that you took Rick's post in such a defensive manner. I think he made such a lot of great points! I agree with all that he has written in this thread but does that make me a pastor hater too?
I certainly don’t hate pastors , I consider them brothers in the faith.
Chris, as Vic and Rick have pointed out we are all in the field working with the sheep.The only pastor we should be having is Jesus…we are the sheep he is our Shepherd. The sheep have already been led by Prophets,kings,priests and they went astray. Only Jesus should be our shepherd.

Quote:Church members are told in the scriptures to "Obey" their leaders. They are told to give their pastor "double honor" and they are told to make sure that they don't make His work a burden. The problem with the modern church is a lack of respect for the position of pastor and his hard work.

So you want this double honour and have appointed yourself as leader.

Quote:Peter, Paul and all of the apostles received respect and were honored by the congregation. The early church would never have dreamed of challenging their God given leaders and their authority. It is ungodly and out right rebellion to attack and oppose God's annointed (unless that man has surrendered his moral authority to lead).

You compare yourself to the apostles? And if we challenge you we are in rebellion? Who gave you this apostolic authority?
Chris I think Rick showed remarkable humility and sensitivity with his posts to you and if anyone is on a high horse here, it seems to be you.

[heb13-13]

(07-23-2009 07:31 PM)pastor_chris Wrote:  Rick,

Honestly If I keep responding to you we are going to just lock horns. So I am going to back off of this thread. I have no desire to argue with a pastor-hater. You speak in a condescending manner as one who "knows" what my problems are and how I can "correct" them. It is obvious you were wounded or offended by a pastor somewhere at sometime. Your bias against Christian ministers is out there for the world to see. Hate to break it to you but while the Minister is to work with the sheep in the field His ministry is indeed different and was intended to be. But don't let the Bible get in the way of your opinion.

Church members are told in the scriptures to "Obey" their leaders. They are told to give their pastor "double honor" and they are told to make sure that they don't make His work a burden. The problem with the modern church is a lack of respect for the position of pastor and his hard work. People, like you who think that each man is his own little pope and that pastors are pompous "dictators" are the ones who cause church splits and massive conflict in churches. The average pastor loves his flock, feeds them faithfully, and sacrifices for them and for their well being. Arrogant, know it all types that ignore the biblical authority of the Elder reject any authority and in affect even cast off God's sovereignty.

Peter, Paul and all of the apostles received respect and were honored by the congregation. The early church would never have dreamed of challenging their God given leaders and their authority. It is ungodly and out right rebellion to attack and oppose God's annointed (unless that man has surrendered his moral authority to lead). Your view of the church would mean that every church congregation should go without a pastor and that there should be no elder/leader in any church. This would lead to chaos and discord.You are oblivious to the teaching of scripture and to the clear structure set up in the New Testament. You cannot reinevnt the church. But I am sure you'll try.

You can call me brother if you ever get off your high, sanctimonious horse in humility and apologize for judging me and others like me. Good day.

Chris,

Just for the record, I have never caused a church split. I have counseled Christians who are upset with their Pastor or the leadership and want to leave, that if they do decide to leave, they should leave quietly and not to cause a split. I have told people that causing a church split is just as demonic as probably the ongoing controversy that it is all about.

I have told Christians who were thinking of leaving because others were bashing the religious system, that they should not leave if they have important, life-giving relationships in Christ at their Church.

I have seen others beat up on Pastors and told them that they need to make it right with them. I was never talking about Pastors with you. I was talking about YOU. I am in relationship with 3 "Pastors" right now. I don't bash them, and they are men of God.

I am not a Pastor-hater. Did you coin that term? I never heard it.

You are trying to marginalize my comments by your name-calling.

You said, "Church members are told in the scriptures to "Obey" their leaders. They are told to give their pastor "double honor" and they are told to make sure that they don't make His work a burden."

What is clear to me and others "for the world to see", is that your church is not "obeying" you, giving you "double-honor" and consequently making your life a "burden".

You say, "The early church would never have dreamed of challenging their God given leaders and their authority"

You are wrong because the Bereans (Acts 17:11) were poised and ready to if after they "searched the scriptures" they found what the APOSTLE PAUL said to be untrue. And every Christian in your church should be like the Bereans, too. The problem is that you want them to be a respecter of man. Namely you, and so they should not challenge you. You view a "challenging" of you as a challenge of your authority and so you label it rebellion. Chris, you need to chill and read Mark 10:42-44.

You said, "Arrogant, know it all types that ignore the biblical authority of the Elder reject any authority and in affect even cast off God's sovereignty. "

A staunch Catholic Apologist told me that same thing one time. I don't reject the authority of the scripture or the Holy Spirit in my life.

You said, "Your view of the church would mean that every church congregation should go without a pastor and that there should be no elder/leader in any church. This would lead to chaos and discord.You are oblivious to the teaching of scripture and to the clear structure set up in the New Testament."

You never asked me my view of the Church, so how could you know it? How is that structure working for you? Seriously, tell us. From what you say, seems like there is resentment both ways between you and the sinners.

You said, "It is ungodly and out right rebellion to attack and oppose God's annointed (unless that man has surrendered his moral authority to lead)."

That's quite a self-image you have. We have only one Leader, Chris. But, I will gladly follow you as you follow Christ. The same for any of my brothers and sisters. That does not make them my LEADER or give them authority over me. It just makes them a great example of the Life of Christ and we all need to be that way to each other.

You can't lead men by bullying them. They will never follow you. You lead men by example. You become the point man on a Reconaissance mission, you do the dirty work and smile and laugh all the way if you want men to respect you. You gain a sense of humor in the midst of adversity and against ALL opposition and you laugh in the Devil's face because he is a loser and he has no part in you.

You don't sit back and TELL people what to do. God cannot use us if we are self-seeking always keeping account of what people are doing FOR US.

No apology needed on my part. You are already forgiven as I never took offense at anything you said and I harbor no ill-will.

"Judging" by itself is not an offense that requires forgiveness. Can you tell me specifically how I "judged" you and I will be more than happy to apologize.

Rick

Here is Mark 10:42-44, by the way.

Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mark 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mark 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

God bless you.