Pastor Or Reverend???

[heb13-13]

TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED.

In our everyday life, we are very careful about use and abuse of things that we own, most especially when we pay good money to get them. A lot of us dutifully read the manuals that come with our gadgets in order to get the best out of them but when it comes to spiritual things it is a different story altogether. Most of us are guilty of rampant misuse and abuse of scripture! This has become the norm in Christendom that people have come to accept a lot of warped views of scripture as authentic.

A very good example is “touch not mine anointed”. A so-called man of God is going off the rails preaching questionable doctrines, if you dare point this out you are silenced with this verse. A man of God is caught in a compromising position and he uses this phrase to wrangle his way out of accounting for his misdemeanour.

Is this scripture being properly applied? Does its use in scripture marry up with the way we apply it now? Let’s look in scripture to find out.

O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He [is] the LORD our God; his judgments [are] in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word [which] he commanded to a thousand generations; [Even of the covenant] which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, [and] to Israel [for] an everlasting covenant, Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance; When ye were but few, even a few, and strangers in it. And [when] they went from nation to nation, and from [one] kingdom to another people; He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes, [Saying], Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm. 1 Chron 16: 13 – 22

In the above scripture, David was bringing the ark into Jerusalem. And while doing this, he took a trip down memory lane remembering the humble beginnings of the nation of Israel and he used the “touch not mine anointed” verse to refer to the ENTIRE nation of Israel and not to a selected few who believed they were beyond reproach.

Every believer in this new dispensation is the Lord’s anointed.

We are told in scripture that we are a chosen generation and a royal priesthood in the book of 1 Peter. The book of Revelation further leans weight to this by saying that we are a kingdom of kings and priests. So why then would some individuals equate themselves with God and believe that saying they are wrong makes God angry? This trend is certainly not biblical.

Once a thing is not put to proper use, it most certainly would be abused. Once a scripture is not properly applied, we will never get any benefit out of it.

No human being is beyond reproach.

This is from my friend, Lionel.

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:First I do appreciate how you have approached me. I take no issue with you whatsoever. Some comments on here towards me were unfair and I wish that those who made them would lighten up and give me the hand of fellowship. With a few this just hasnt happened, even after I humbled myself and admitted that I had been rash. I dont think my view is wrong but I think my initial approach was hasty, and in some cases unfair. I just wish everyone would have the same conciliatory spirit, they do not.

Chris you have insulted and given false witness of Vic quite a few times.Vic has a very conciliatory spirit because I dare say on most other boards they would not have been so patient with you. Since we are believers and are instructed to be patient with one another as God is patient with us, we are being patient.As far as I can see everyone has offered you the hand of fellowship ,that is why you are still here despite all the disrespect you have shown to the admins.

Quote:In additon I offered a very detailed set of verses that prove my point rather well and to this point not one has really tried to refute my position in an effective manner. The verses that have been offered against a paid ministry so far have had nothing to do with the position or office in the scriptures. All the verses are dealing with Christian vitrue not the biblical interpretation of bishop, pastor, elder, etc. Since it is this group that wishes to point out "error" and redefine what the church currently believes about the ministry the reality is that the burden of proof is on you.

We are all trying to discuss the verses with you but you dont seem to be addressing them and instead are playing victim. I look forward to dialogue on the verses.

[pastor_chris]

Please remove my name from the site. This is a waste of time. This is the biggest bunchu of know-it-alls I have ever encountered. Sheep your just flat wrong. Your ignorance is staggering now I know how you got sucked into a cult.

[Rose of Shushan]

Chris, you keep insulting us and thats not the first time you throw back in Sheep's face that she was misled in the past. I am so glad Jesus doesnt keep throwing our sins and failings back in our faces at every opportunity.
I personally feel a bit foolish in having thought that maybe you would dialogue with us in a civil manner.Especially since you call yourself a pastor.
If you truly are a pastor I fear for your congregation! No wonder the church is in such a mess!!
And no Chris I dont hate you or am trying to victimise you.None of us here are. I will keep you in my prayers when i remember.

[sheep wrecked]

Quote: chris:
I guess I just cant do anything right on this board! You guys trying to run me off? if you want me to go just tell me! HOLY COW! Is that better LOL

****

If it makes you feel good then ban me.

We were not trying to ban you. You seem to have trouble perceiving the difference between "attack" and "discussion". We are not in "attack" mode. We have been more than patient with you, despite your criticisms that we "just don't understand you" mentality.

In reality, we have extended a much longer "rope" than normal, hoping that with all the information that has been presented to you would persuade you to look at Scripture, rather than continue to promote the teachings and doctrines of men.

You don't seem to be real open to discussion. You are reading the posts with “pastoral eyes”, rather than with an open heart. Every one is supposed to be teachable. Pastors are no better or no worse than every other Christian - except when they hold their "office/position" above every one else which then places them in into a false teacher category.

You have shown us that you believe pastors are better, have more authority, and are the "ultimate" believers. The Scriptures proves you wrong, but you refuse to see that because you have been trained to believe that leadership has control over the flock to the point of spiritual and "calling" superiority. It's not in the text, Chris - it is not there.

Let me show you by your own words what you actually believe:

“Everything I said about the pastorate was more or less based on scripture.”

You have admitted that your beliefs are not based on Scripture but on your opinion and what you have learned through the church and seminary. The hierarchy of leadership that you promote is not in the Bible, it was developed historically through a system designed to keep the sheep in submission to aka under the control of all church authority.

We have tried, obviously unsuccessfully, to urge you to look at the Scriptures as a whole, not with bias supporting what you have been taught, but what Christ has said.

I would urge you to reconsider, because if one’s beliefs are not based solely on the Bible, which you admitted they are not, then one will be led astray by the doctrines and traditions of men.

Over 2000 years ago, Ezekiel prophesied concerning the "shepherds of the flock". Please consider these words carefully, because the system that calls you pastor, is really detrimental to the body of Christ:

Eze 34:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
Eze 34:3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.
Eze 34:4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
Eze 34:5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
Eze 34:6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.
Eze 34:7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
Eze 34:8 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;
Eze 34:9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
Eze 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
Eze 34:11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
Eze 34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
Eze 34:13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.
Eze 34:14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.
Eze 34:15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.
Eze 34:17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.
Eze 34:18 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?
Eze 34:19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.
Eze 34:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle.
Eze 34:21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad;
Eze 34:22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.
Eze 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
Eze 34:24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.
Eze 34:25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.
Eze 34:26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.
Eze 34:27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.
Eze 34:28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid.
Eze 34:29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more.
Eze 34:30 Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 34:31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD.

[sheep wrecked]

(07-26-2009 07:02 PM)pastor_chris Wrote:  Please remove my name from the site. This is a waste of time. This is the biggest bunchu of know-it-alls I have ever encountered. Sheep your just flat wrong. Your ignorance is staggering now I know how you got sucked into a cult.

You are right, ignorance got me into a cult. The ignorance that was perpetuated in the church did not adequately prepare me for false doctrines. I had many pastors over the years in different denominations. All had the opportunity to teach the truth - to warn - to equip. But instead, their time was spent on teaching me to tithe, to be submissive to their authority, to view their office as exemplary and without error. And so I fell headlong into deception.

I am not blaming them fully, because we each have a responsibility to seek the truth. But they contributed greatly to my ignorance. If I had just stuck to the Word, it would have saved me so much grief. However; God's grace is so abundant and so amazing that in spite of those years, He drew me out and now has given me a platform to reach out to others - to warn and to equip. Exactly as His Word instructs. How blessed is that?


2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

[pastor_chris]

sheep,

I have received a series of responses that include verses that have nothing to do with the ministry. Your method of interpretation is so contrary to sound hermeneutics that it sends chills down my spine. To this point I have not received a valid refutation of my post on the ministry according to the scriptures. And Sheep you just said "church history isnt a valid witness" which is about the silliest thing I have heard in a long, long time. This attitude is grounded in ignorance of the worst kind, intentional ignorance. I havent bothered to refute your arguments because they are so poorly put together, they are not even worth discussing.

In order to dismantle the leadership structure in the church you first have to prove it is flawed and unscripturtal. No one even listens to me here, it is quite irritating. You hold a minority view that is grounded in a poor understanding of scripture. Sheep if you had accepted the testimony of church history you never would have bought into the false teachings of the HR movement. Your view of the pastorate is totally unfounded. I have no obligation to corect you because my post that provided lots of scriptural support was ignored. Until those verses are dealt with you have no argument. The sermon on the mount is not in the context on pastoral leadership. It is important but it is not contextually dealing with the office of pastor-teacher, which is clearly taught in several passages.

I have lost patience with the one sided perspective and the side stepping of a valid and intelligent argument. I am also tired of the threats of being banned. I have now received three of them. If you are going to ban me do it already. Sheep make a real case using relevant passages. But you cant.

[sheep wrecked]

(07-26-2009 07:52 PM)pastor_chris Wrote:  The sermon on the mount is not in the context on pastoral leadership. It is important but it is not contextually dealing with the office of pastor-teacher, which is clearly taught in several passages.

I never quoted from the Sermon on the Mt to disprove/prove pastoral leadership. I was responding to stref about being perfect, which many apply to being sinless. So I posted Matt 5:48 to show the definition of perfect does not mean sinless.

Maybe Pilgrim would share his coffee with ya - that might wake up yer brain

[sheep wrecked]

(07-26-2009 07:52 PM)pastor_chris Wrote:  sheep,

I have received a series of responses that include verses that have nothing to do with the ministry. Your method of interpretation is so contrary to sound hermeneutics that it sends chills down my spine. To this point I have not received a valid refutation of my post on the ministry according to the scriptures.

Every verse given you about how to treat the brethren, about being humble, not thinking more highly of yourself than you ought, esteeming others before yourself, not striving, being gentle, meek, etc; all those and the many more have everything to do with the ministry. Because they have everything to do with being a servant of Jesus Christ. The servant attitude, which Jesus required of leadership.

Quote:And Sheep you just said "church history isnt a valid witness" which is about the silliest thing I have heard in a long, long time. This attitude is grounded in ignorance of the worst kind, intentional ignorance.

At the risk of sounding more "silly", I will repeat myself: church history is not a valid witness. God promised to preserve His Word, not church history. If one looks at church history, it culminates into the RCC. Do you understand that is what you use for a standard for your "pastoral commission/office"?

Quote:I havent bothered to refute your arguments because they are so poorly put together, they are not even worth discussing.

The contempt you show for others, which part of the ministry of pastor is that? What seminary class was it that taught you that what others thought wasn't worth responding to? What Scripture supports you treating others as worthless?

Quote:In order to dismantle the leadership structure in the church you first have to prove it is flawed and unscripturtal. No one even listens to me here, it is quite irritating.

The proof is in the very attitudes you have portrayed. The very things you have conveyed about your own congregation. You know the pastor and the sinners? The very inability of so many who cannot wield the Sword of the Spirit because of not being equipped by the "Pastors".

Quote:You hold a minority view that is grounded in a poor understanding of scripture.

Jesus was in a minority, yet He withstood the false teachings of the Pharisees by using the Scriptures and teaching the Truth. The way is narrow for those who follow Christ. It's the popular and wide road that leads to hell.

Quote:Your view of the pastorate is totally unfounded. I have no obligation to corect you because my post that provided lots of scriptural support was ignored. Until those verses are dealt with you have no argument.

Sadly your attitude and behavior on this board has likely confirmed for many readers the negatives of what many think about the "pastorate' versus simply being brothers and sisters in Christ and encouraging and edifying one another and praying for one another.

Quote:I have lost patience with the one sided perspective and the side stepping of a valid and intelligent argument.

Actually Chris, you have been so busy attacking, being a victim , being defensive and insulting everyone I doubt anyone has seen an "intelligent argument" from you. The focus has been about your bad attitude.

Quote:I am also tired of the threats of being banned. I have now received three of them. If you are going to ban me do it already. Sheep make a real case using relevant passages. But you cant.

Chris, look back at the posts. YOU brought up the issue of being banned. And have consistently brought it up. You have now been warned, and have been told to respect the forum rules--which you continue to ignore in your insults and rudeness--and yet you are still here. Not banned. If we decide to ban you, we'll be sure to clue you in. Although you will likely argue about it.

Quote:From post 63---This is the biggest bunch of know it alls ...

In a discussion forum , people tend to discuss and share the things they know and understand. I suppose you might not be used to that concept in your congregation. But most here find it interesting, challenging and edifying to discuss--notice I said discuss not rant--things with fellow believers from all over the world and who have different backgrounds and understandings.

Many are "mature believers' having known Christ for many years. Maturity is the end goal for equipping the saints isn't it, Chris? Aren't we to grow in grace and knowledge and have the "strong meat" of discernment?

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age[G5046], even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


full age---G5046
τέλειος
teleios

Total KJV Occurrences: 20

perfect, 17
Mat_5:48 [which I already showed you] (2), Mat_19:21, Rom_12:2, 1Co_2:6, 1Co_13:10, Eph_4:13, Phi_3:15, Col_1:28, Col_4:12, Heb_9:11, Jam_1:4 (2), Jam_1:17, Jam_1:25, Jam_3:2, 1Jo_4:18

age, 1
Heb_5:14

full, 1
Heb_5:14 (2)

men, 1
1Co_14:20

full age G5046
τέλειος
teleios
Thayer Definition:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G5056
Citing in TDNT: 8:67, 1161

[pastor_chris]

Sheep,

Why are you so scared to deal with the texts that actually deal with the office of Pastor/bishop/elder? This is really amazing. Sure Christian character is part of the qualifications of leadership, but it tells us nothing about the actual role and model of leadership in the early church. Deal with the verses I have posted or it is obvious you are obfuscating the argument.

Sheep,

What is an elder? What is a pastor? What is a bishop? What are they to do? Are they to be compensated? None of these issues have even been dealt with. Each has been totally and conveniently avoided. Why? Because the Bible teaches that there a specific offices in the church and gives us the qualifications of those men. It also makes it clear those men are to compensated, respected, submitted to, and shown honor. Will you ever stop beating around the bush? Maybe its because you know you are wrong??? It sure seems that way.

One more thing, if I had been your pastor I would have equipped you so you would have been much less likely to join a cult group like the HR. I pour myself into the people and I spend hours every week teaching them the truth and doctrines of the faith. I dont focus on 'tithing' we teach on giving but my bigger concern is their souls. if I have to get a second job I will but I care for my people, they need me to teach them all of God's truth.